8+ to hit- Sacred Cow To Butcher?

[kilemall]

IMO the most hallowed Traveller roll of all is the basic to hit in personal combat, 8+.

However, I keep on reading that actual combat suggests a lower probability to hit, even as a trained LE or soldier.

Here is an example analysis that is typical, indicating something more like a 10-12 to hit by percentage.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

Note the difference between the Baltimore PD and the others, quite a bit more hit percentage, could be an aberration, could be that they get more training as per the text and so might be Handgun-3 instead of Handgun-1.

Anyway, I'm thinking that this is not typical results at the rangewhich would be better then 8+ and is attributable to these being actual combat and not a fixed non-threatening target.

So I was thinking the following DMs would apply-

Under threat of fire -2 DM

Firing unopposed +2 DM

So sniper surprise would be just that much more devastating.

Since I'm Striker 8/A/C+, that would mean on average most combats would be A/C/E, with long range not doable except by weapon-2+ skill level.

What do you think?

 

[Timerover51]

I use the percentile roll system from Don Featherstone's Skirmish Wargaming, which gives me both hit and damage in one roll, with damage ranging from instant kill to slight wound.

If someone does not like the combat system, then find one that you do like and use that.

 

[GypsyComet]

Sacred Cow? Only three editions out of nine use it, and two of those only sort of.

 

[mike wightman]

I've used 12 as the target number for basic attacks for years. If you want to keep still and take careful aim you can increase your chance to 8+, but you are an easier target to be hit...

 

[kilemall]

I've used 12 as the target number for basic attacks for years. If you want to keep still and take careful aim you can increase your chance to 8+, but you are an easier target to be hit...

I was considering something like that, for every plus you aim with an opponent targeting you gets that same plus since you are spending time.

Maybe no one is shooting at you and its a free bonus. Maybe not.

 

[kilemall]

Sacred Cow? Only three editions out of nine use it, and two of those only sort of.

Sorry, my mistake.

Sacred K'kree.

 

[Enoki]

The two things that really matter here, assuming someone who is reasonably skilled with the weapon they're using, is range and motion. If they're moving a lot, breathing hard, it's much harder to get a bead on someone.

With a firearm, like a pistol, if you're under about 3 meters and you even half aim the weapon you'll hit a human sized target every time. You have to have a lack of skill, or be really distracted not to hit something that big, that close.

 

[kilemall]

The two things that really matter here, assuming someone who is reasonably skilled with the weapon they're using, is range and motion. If they're moving a lot, breathing hard, it's much harder to get a bead on someone.

With a firearm, like a pistol, if you're under about 3 meters and you even half aim the weapon you'll hit a human sized target every time. You have to have a lack of skill, or be really distracted not to hit something that big, that close.

Yet, the actual combat data suggests that is exactly what happens.

 

[kilemall]

I use the percentile roll system from Don Featherstone's Skirmish Wargaming, which gives me both hit and damage in one roll, with damage ranging from instant kill to slight wound.

If someone does not like the combat system, then find one that you do like and use that.

I'm going to such a system with the Striker resolution table, just haven't decided exactly how to play the melee penetration as presented, as those were written for the separate melee damage table which practically demands many many stabs to do someone in.

Hmmm, should mention that going to a base 10+ effective range or worse would really highlight the hit advantages of shotguns and automatic weapons that much more.

 

[mike wightman]

The two things that really matter here, assuming someone who is reasonably skilled with the weapon they're using, is range and motion. If they're moving a lot, breathing hard, it's much harder to get a bead on someone.

With a firearm, like a pistol, if you're under about 3 meters and you even half aim the weapon you'll hit a human sized target every time. You have to have a lack of skill, or be really distracted not to hit something that big, that close.

You can easily find video evidence that this is simply not true.
Also US police statistics show just how hard it is to hit someone who is intent on not being hit while trying to hit you at the same time.

 

[Whipsnade]

What do you think?

Combat in games rarely if ever models reality because reality is seen as boring.

For the most part weapons in games hit more often and, for the most part, do less damage than their real world counterparts. Traveller is an exception with regards to damage and it's personal combat systems is routinely questioned because of that.

Hell, people don't even like realistic ammo rules.

Someone who grew up playing Call of Mario Brothers on ZBox isn't going to understand or want a realistic combat system.

 

[flykiller]

Combat in games rarely if ever models reality because reality is seen as boring.

not to mention fatal ....

Someone who grew up playing Call of Mario Brothers on ZBox isn't going to understand or want a realistic combat system.

tried that in deus ex. the menu said, "easy, medium, hard, realistic". I said, "hey", and picked realistic. the game started, "nsf everywhere jc, your orders are to shoot on sight." I snuck up to the ramp, crouched down, peaked around the corner. one of the nsf guys saw me and fired off a snapshot. hit me in the head, dead, spiraling up into the sky to mournful music. time elapsed from first game action to dead, literally one second. "another 50 billion dollars down the drain."

next game I picked "easy".

 

[creativehum]

I'll think about 12 as the Throw, only because Mike seems so smart about this stuff.

But the advantage I see for making it 8+ is how the other modifiers come into play. Especially Cover and Concealment. If a character attacks from Cover anyone attacking him suffers a -4 DM. So getting behind cover is a big deal. But if you have to cross distance during a combat you expose yourself to harsh odds for survival. As a game, I think these kinds of details are effective, even if they are not realistic.

 

[kilemall]

Combat in games rarely if ever models reality because reality is seen as boring.

For the most part weapons in games hit more often and, for the most part, do less damage than their real world counterparts. Traveller is an exception with regards to damage and it's personal combat systems is routinely questioned because of that.

Hell, people don't even like realistic ammo rules.

Someone who grew up playing Call of Mario Brothers on ZBox isn't going to understand or want a realistic combat system.

I don't play with those kind of people. Some of them have been in combat, of the ship or the personal variety, so I don't have those problems long as I am not going overboard with mechanics or inconsistency.

 

[kilemall]

I use the percentile roll system from Don Featherstone's Skirmish Wargaming, which gives me both hit and damage in one roll, with damage ranging from instant kill to slight wound.

If someone does not like the combat system, then find one that you do like and use that.

I looked over that system, seems to be a high probability of to hit for anyone not in cover or prone in the smidgen I could see exposed on the Amazon preview, although it did have some nice phasing and had to be ahead of it's time at release. Is that a fair characterization?

 

[aramis]

I looked over that system, seems to be a high probability of to hit for anyone not in cover or prone in the smidgen I could see exposed on the Amazon preview, although it did have some nice phasing and had to be ahead of it's time at release. Is that a fair characterization?

It purports to be a Roleplaying Game... but it's a combination history text, a weak attempt at an RPG, and a strong minis game. It's been printed several times - there's an A4 hardcover, and a B5 size hardcover... I've owned both.

It's really a bit old-fashioned for the era it was published in. Minis games dumbed WAY down over the 80's.

 

[kilemall]

It purports to be a Roleplaying Game... but it's a combination history text, a weak attempt at an RPG, and a strong minis game. It's been printed several times - there's an A4 hardcover, and a B5 size hardcover... I've owned both.

It's really a bit old-fashioned for the era it was published in. Minis games dumbed WAY down over the 80's.

Whoa, didn't see RPG coming, I took it to be a minis format geared to 1:1 fights as opposed to a formation/stand.

 

[aramis]

Whoa, didn't see RPG coming, I took it to be a minis format geared to 1:1 fights as opposed to a formation/stand.

Sliding scale.

 

[mike wightman]

Looking back my first role playing game must have been using Airfix WW2 rules to fight a small unit engagement with Major Easy (a character from Battle comic IIRC) and his platoon taking on a company of German infantry defending a harbour.
It was a scenario from a comic - may have been Warlord or Battle - don't remember which.

 

[Timerover51]

I looked over that system, seems to be a high probability of to hit for anyone not in cover or prone in the smidgen I could see exposed on the Amazon preview, although it did have some nice phasing and had to be ahead of it's time at release. Is that a fair characterization?

Basically, it was derived from a Colonial Skirmish game set in the Victorian Period, where it was intended that there would be a continued campaign with the player's characters developing over the course of the campaign. There are some modifiers to the hit role that somewhat reduce the lethality, but I prefer a game of Traveller where combat is not the be-all and end-all of the game. If they get into a fire fight or hand-to-hand combat, they have a reasonable likelihood of dying. As the system covers both hand weapons and firearms, it makes for an easy to use system. Don was a friend of mine as well. As it was derived from a Victorian Period game, it works nicely with Space: 1889, although that do not have too complex a combat system.

I run AD&D differently. Ditto Middle Earth Role-Playing. In those, combat is assumed as part of the game.