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A brief experiment

Did you have the misfortune of playing with a "crooked GM"?

Yes. And having been one.

Pennshome:
I'd have walked before you "Fake rolled" - it's not building the good kind of tension. I find repetitive noises particularly annoying. But I find also that GM's who roll behind the screen a lot tend also to be railroading players.

I've found it better by far to have all dice rolls that matter done in the open, on the table, and with dice everyone can read. If you're just going to ignore the dice, then don't bother rolling, because you are in fact lying to your players.

I've found no good comes of playing with habitually dishonest people, and rolling behind the screen tends to be one of the warning signs of that. Fake rolling is a MAJOR warning sign of that.

Even if the lies are simply to protect the PC's, it's still robbing the players of their characters experiencing real risk.

If I'm rolling dice, it matters. And the suspense has been much better since my players came to that realization - if I'm reaching for dice, something is about to happen.
 
If I'm rolling dice, it matters. And the suspense has been much better since my players came to that realization - if I'm reaching for dice, something is about to happen.

I eliminate meta-gaming from my table. It isn't needed to build tension. What the PC's can perceive should be doing that. If not, the GM isn't doing a good job in the first place.
 
Yes. And having been one.

Pennshome:
I'd have walked before you "Fake rolled" - it's not building the good kind of tension. I find repetitive noises particularly annoying. But I find also that GM's who roll behind the screen a lot tend also to be railroading players.

I've found it better by far to have all dice rolls that matter done in the open, on the table, and with dice everyone can read. If you're just going to ignore the dice, then don't bother rolling, because you are in fact lying to your players.

I've found no good comes of playing with habitually dishonest people, and rolling behind the screen tends to be one of the warning signs of that. Fake rolling is a MAJOR warning sign of that.

Even if the lies are simply to protect the PC's, it's still robbing the players of their characters experiencing real risk.

If I'm rolling dice, it matters. And the suspense has been much better since my players came to that realization - if I'm reaching for dice, something is about to happen.


Aramis my focus as a GM is Roleplaying and I will say that the same guys that are in my group (7), have been with me as my gamers now for 11+ years. We play every other week at my home and we play either Traveller or D&D using my own set of house rules. Now each of my gamers are also my age or older and have played as long as I have as well, plus they all have their own other separate gaming groups that they DM/GM on the off weeks that my game is not playing.

So to reflect on what you said above, that is not always true. It is all on the GMs style and well the proof is in the pudding. So since these GMs are all players of mine( have been with me happily for 11+ years), it shows that I as the GM have a good roleplaying focused game with good Moderating skills that is well liked.

There are exceptions to everything and no rule of thumb is ever 100% perfect. I feel your being a bit judgemental but that might be based off of what you have seen and experienced. I would state that maybe you might want to give people a chance and maybe reconsider some views a little more. Remember the real goal here is to have fun and have a good game with ones friends. It is what I do for my gamers, whom are also my friends as well too.

Still to each their own, and everyone has their own truths!:):D;)
 
Yes. And having been one.

Pennshome:
I'd have walked before you "Fake rolled" - it's not building the good kind of tension. I find repetitive noises particularly annoying. But I find also that GM's who roll behind the screen a lot tend also to be railroading players.

I've found it better by far to have all dice rolls that matter done in the open, on the table, and with dice everyone can read. If you're just going to ignore the dice, then don't bother rolling, because you are in fact lying to your players.

I've found no good comes of playing with habitually dishonest people, and rolling behind the screen tends to be one of the warning signs of that. Fake rolling is a MAJOR warning sign of that.

Even if the lies are simply to protect the PC's, it's still robbing the players of their characters experiencing real risk.

If I'm rolling dice, it matters. And the suspense has been much better since my players came to that realization - if I'm reaching for dice, something is about to happen.

Wow. We're debating how to roll the dice. :cool:

For the record, I roll the dice behind the screen. I'm not above a fake roll either; it was recommended in a gamemastering article way back in my D&D days, a way of making sure that players don't go on the alert for traps or ambushes just 'cause they hear the clatter of dice. If that makes me dishonest, well, I lied to my kids about Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, at least until they got old enough to reason it out themselves; made them happy as young 'uns, as they got older it taught them that poppa loved them but was not to be trusted, which is fine - a person should always have a bit of distrust for authority figures.

It was good advice back then, it worked for D&D, where folk would start breaking out the sensing magic and search skills when the dice clattered, but that was college days. Older players tend to be better about sticking to character even in the face of events external to play. But the key to trust is not honesty - try being too honest with your wife and see what happens. As with marriage, the key to trust is agreeing on the rules and sticking by that agreement. If the players understand and accept that fake roles will occur to cover events that they shouldn't have knowledge of, there shouldn't be any complaints. If someone can't abide that - and this group can play straight even when dice roll and they don't know why, and you all agree to forgo the fake roll bit - then fake rolls are improper in the extreme. And if he can't abide that, but also can't keep outside knowledge from influencing his play - well, maybe he can go find someone who'll put up with that. I'm not much on letting the players manipulate the game master for their own advantage.

As for hiding rolls: the game is a story. The game master is the director in a show in which the player is star, but it's improv: the game master cannot control the player. He orchestrates events around the players to create a fun and exciting adventure; the game lies in the players' response. The rules guide player and game master alike, providing a framework in which the players can challenge the odds, take pride in their achievements, and find satisfaction in the occasional heroic defeat. Hiding the rolls so you can reroll to the disadvantage of the player is not just cheating, it's lousy storytelling and makes for lousy adventure: the gamemaster's roll is not to "win", it's to entertain. Hiding the rolls so you can deliver a cakewalk to the players is also lousy storytelling. However, blind chance is not great storytelling either. There is a time for the hero to die: when he has given his best and can face his end with equanimity - or when he does something stupid and chance passes the ultimate sentence. That time is not when the entire group is in an air/raft at 100 feet and and some throwaway minion takes out the power plant with a wildly lucky roll.

This is not something one does regularly, but it is a fair tool of the gamemaster's chest. The players must have a fair chance at overcoming adversity and winning the day. The antagonist must have a fair chance at defeating them. But, one can't lazily turn one's head away and say, "Rules", when all the players' and game master's planning is about to come to nothing because of a random series of rolls.

Traveller represents a departure from traditional RPGs. It is less forgiving of blind chance - fewer hits, powerful technological weapons, no magic spells to resurrect the unfortunate or undo bad luck - but it's pretty fun rolling up a new character, and a starting character can be every bit as effective as one who's been played for three years, given only the proper tools, which can often be had from surviving players. It's a game where the random death of one or two players doesn't have to derail the campaign. Still, given the choice, I'd just as soon not see the air/raft take the gang down.
 
LMAO then I guess it would really un-nerve you when I make FAKE Rolls just because to make you think I was doing something or etc...LOL!!!
I do this, too. Not necessarily to trick my players, but to create a bit of an edge when they get cocky. A few dice rolls and a suppressed grin get my players all paranoid. And paranoid is not a bad thing. But, it is something I try to use sparingly.

Having said that, I don't get to play face-to-face now, so I would just as soon use my computer to make the rolls. As a player, I build them into my character spreadsheets.

Wow. We're debating how to roll the dice. :cool:
LOL!

Still, given the choice, I'd just as soon not see the air/raft take the gang down.
I agree. Though it does depend on how you and your players enjoy things: as a game (to be 'won' to some degree), or a story. (Some of my players will have difficulty adjusting to the "narrative" style.)

I don't strongly disagree with Aramis' post. But, it all depends on you and your players.
 
I always roll behind the screen. Never had a problem with it. It does say right in the AD&D Dungion Master's Guide to do that.

The times I wanted to build tension, I rolled out in the open.

In AD&D the player can make a 'god call' to save their character. It was down to almost a total player character die off. One player decided to make such a roll. It was truly the characters only chance for survival.

I rolled 2 percent out in the open. The player started rolling their dice. Nobody breathed. The player rolled 1 percent. Hurrahs all around. Their characters survived.
 
I roll behind of or in front of my screen, depending on the amount of drama the players have attached to the dice.
 
I've always rolled behind the screen since that's the way I learned it back in the old days. That's what a screen is for, isn't it? Aside from having all those useful charts in tiny lettering. I very rarely roll for some random event - I have plenty of ideas to throw at the players if something "random" needs to happen during a slow period, so the rolls are pretty much only going to be combat related. Ship malfunction rolls I likewise keep hidden in case they develop as something the players won't notice for a while.

Besides, if I roll the numbers out in the open then I can't fudge them as easily in the player's favor in order to help move the story along or reward crazy and cool things they try when they try to save the universe, scientist's daughter, or just the world form certain destruction. Or if they just have a gawdawful run of bad luck when rolling the dice themselves and will all probably die if I don't help a little by maybe just badly wounding them so they have a chance to escape. Or only one goes down mortally wounded so the others, bleeding and limping, can try to find help.

Now if they continue to push their luck after that sort of cluebat smacks them they'll all die, but generally they get the message.
 
Besides, if I roll the numbers out in the open then I can't fudge them as easily in the player's favor in order to help move the story along or reward crazy and cool things they try when they try to save the universe, scientist's daughter, or just the world form certain destruction.

That's exactly what I NEVER EVER AGAIN want to see done as a player in any game I'm in, and don't think GM's should be doing.

It robs players of their accomplishments. Especially if they figure it out.
 
That's exactly what I NEVER EVER AGAIN want to see done as a player in any game I'm in, and don't think GM's should be doing.

It robs players of their accomplishments. Especially if they figure it out.


Then you'd like my games (unless I'm running one for 9 yr olds). As was drilled into me, There is no saving throw vs. stupidity.
 
That's exactly what I NEVER EVER AGAIN want to see done as a player in any game I'm in, and don't think GM's should be doing.

It robs players of their accomplishments. Especially if they figure it out.
I'm glad someone else was thinking this besides me.
 
That's exactly what I NEVER EVER AGAIN want to see done as a player in any game I'm in, and don't think GM's should be doing.

It robs players of their accomplishments.
While this is true, it ignores that being killed because of a string of unlucky die rolls (or worse, a single unlucky die roll) just as surely robs the player of his accomplishments.


Hans
 
While this is true, it ignores that being killed because of a string of unlucky die rolls (or worse, a single unlucky die roll) just as surely robs the player of his accomplishments.


Hans
No, it does not. It just kills the character. The character, under the player's guidance still accomplished whatever he had accomplished. Rolling in the open also helps avoid GM favoritism.

Favoritism, inability to fail meaningfully, and inability to succeed by merit alone are 3 of the most toxic conditions in RPGing.
 
No, it does not. It just kills the character.

In a totally meaningless manner.

Favoritism, inability to fail meaningfully, and inability to succeed by merit alone are 3 of the most toxic conditions in RPGing.

There is no favoritism if the ability to survive meaningless deaths is built into the rules (e.g. fate points). Being shielded from failing meaninglessly does not necessarily imply inability to fail meaningfully, and no one can succeed in action/adventure stories without having the author on his side or a similar advantage. Merit alone certainly won't do it. In action/adventure stories superior skills simply means more difficult obstacles to overcome.


Hans
 
...Favoritism, inability to fail meaningfully, and inability to succeed by merit alone are 3 of the most toxic conditions in RPGing.

I suspect we all agree that the player must earn what he achieves if it is to have value to him. However, I am not about to claim that it is achieved by merit alone. The merits of that particular argument can best be addressed by discussing the probability of a group of individuals actually being able to successfully break into an orbiting Imperial prison ship and making off with one of its prisoners - on their own merits and without the "bad guys" suffering an inexplicable failure of basic common sense. If we truly played the game by merit alone, the players would never have gotten the chance to wander about Fulacin looking for an octagon building, and Rock would have been stopped and boarded by the first Zhodani patrol that encountered her. Opportunities for success are not so great when the bad guys actually start behaving like a well-equipped and well-managed professional force.

The fact is that adventure by its nature weights itself to the advantage of the player. A half dozen retirees are NOT going to defeat experienced mobsters who've spent their lives defeating police investigations and opposing mobsters. Neither are they going to be able to find a way to circumvent a red zone properly patrolled by the Imperial Navy. Instead, we find ourselves playing the same games they play on TV or in the movies: the bad guys are just a little bit less on-the-ball than they should be, they are a little less well-quipped, plan a little less thoroughly, behave a little bit less carefully and often a lot more merciful. Like the villain who contrives an elaborate death for the hero instead of just putting a bullet through the guy's head, we play not for realism but for dramatic effect and excitement.

Your players have played both cleverly and hard, have overcome adversity and followed the clues, have defeated the villain and his minions in a vicious and memorable firefight that left one of them dead and most of them seriously wounded. Having finally won the day, they board their Far Trader and make for the next port - and suffer a misjump into open space. With no fuel for a jump and no means to salvage the situation, they die. Yeah, that was a lot of fun.
 
Carlobrand made most of my point, but I would also like to add that counting on luck to ensure your success in a game does tend to rule out "merit alone". Luck has its place in the game but even in dicey situations luck shouldnt be the only determining factor. And cannot the gods favor a good actor?
 
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