A Movie Inspiration

[Hovtej]

Just watched the 2014 movie "Black Sea". Except for being set under water rather than in space, it has some of the makings of a Traveller adventure. I don't want to give away the plot, but a mismatched group buys an old sub to recover a lost treasure. There is even evil corporate involvement.

 

[Timerover51]

Just watched the 2014 movie "Black Sea". Except for being set under water rather than in space, it has some of the makings of a Traveller adventure. I don't want to give away the plot, but a mismatched group buys an old sub to recover a lost treasure. There is even evil corporate involvement.

Why are all corporations in Traveller portrayed as "evil"?

Do that include the ones that build the Traveller ships? If so, then why does anyone ever use a starship that is likely to have been built by an "evil" corporation with sub-standard parts and faulty components?

 

[robject]

Why are all corporations in Traveller portrayed as "evil"?

"The only parts that are interesting are the evil ones"?

Maybe it's related to the old false assumption "every Traveller adventure involves the player characters breaking the law".

 

[whartung]

Do that include the ones that build the Traveller ships? If so, then why does anyone ever use a starship that is likely to have been built by an "evil" corporation with sub-standard parts and faulty components?

Dude, have you ever tried to get warranty work done on your Free Trader?

Of course all the corps are evil!

 

[aramis]

Why are all corporations in Traveller portrayed as "evil"?

Do that include the ones that build the Traveller ships? If so, then why does anyone ever use a starship that is likely to have been built by an "evil" corporation with sub-standard parts and faulty components?

They aren't. Reread TTA.

Oberlindes is morally gray, but Marc Haut Oberlindes himself is portrayed as well meaning.

Imperialines is a covert arm of the Imperial Household; whether or not that's evil isn't actually addressed, but would ths fall into, "Is the Imperium itself evil?" and "Is the Imperial Family Evil?"

 

[Timerover51]

They aren't. Reread TTA.

Oberlindes is morally gray, but Marc Haut Oberlindes himself is portrayed as well meaning.

Imperialines is a covert arm of the Imperial Household; whether or not that's evil isn't actually addressed, but would ths fall into, "Is the Imperium itself evil?" and "Is the Imperial Family Evil?"

I probably should have edited the quote with respect to The Traveller Adventure. However, if you read the various Amber Zones in JTAS, it would be hard to find one with a non-evil or criminal corporation. The Across the Bright Side adventure features a worker revolution, where the adventure begins by the workers killing a major company stockholder, so that one would be a gray area as well. The workers are portrayed at the "bad guys" in that one.

 

[Quint]

I have to say given the size of megacorps, it would be hard to say any of them are "good" or "evil" - Amber Zones aren't going to be focused on the parts of the huge interstellar organization that are a benefit to those they interact with...

Actually kind of a loss there, some great scenario's to be had working for some corporate foundation doing humanitarian work. Seems like a ready made patron.

D.

 

[ManOfGrey]

Why are all corporations in Traveller portrayed as "evil"?

Simple answer: Any story of interest must have conflict.

To quote Rango: "People, I've had an epiphany. The hero cannot exist in a vacuum! What our story needs is an ironic, unexpected event that will propel the hero into conflict!"

It's hard to have a conflict with good guys. (Unless, of course, you're the bad guy.)

 

[creativehum]

Simple answer: Any story of interest must have conflict.

To quote Rango: "People, I've had an epiphany. The hero cannot exist in a vacuum! What our story needs is an ironic, unexpected event that will propel the hero into conflict!"

It's hard to have a conflict with good guys. (Unless, of course, you're the bad guy.)

Right. Published materials for RPG are about what the PCs do. The material presented will be about the opposition and challenges the PCs might face.

I'm sure there are plenty of corps run by great people in the OTU. In fact, most. But we don't talk about them much -- because they aren't pertinent to RPG-adventure-driven play.

There are corpse that get mentioned in the Traveller materials, of course. They hire the PCs. But not much more be said about them since they aren't going to be playing a big part in the adventure once the PCs are on their way.

 

[DickNervous]

Somewhere I read a quote that went along the lines of...

"There is up without down, no right without left, no light without dark. And therefore, no good without evil, for how would we know one if the other didn't exist?"

Are all megacorps in Traveller evil? Not by a long shot. But in an organization as large as a megacorp, spanning as much space as they do, with the communications systems they have, there is bound to be a "rogue" department/division/etc somewhere doing something "evil", even if the corp ie generally "good."

 

[RandyB]

Somewhere I read a quote that went along the lines of...

"There is up without down, no right without left, no light without dark. And therefore, no good without evil, for how would we know one if the other didn't exist?"

Are all megacorps in Traveller evil? Not by a long shot. But in an organization as large as a megacorp, spanning as much space as they do, with the communications systems they have, there is bound to be a "rogue" department/division/etc somewhere doing something "evil", even if the corp ie generally "good."

The same is true, of course, for both the Imperium itself and its nobility*. Now, consider the canonical interweaving of the latter with the megacorps.


*If you wish to distinguish between "the Nobility" and "the Imperium" at all.

 

[aramis]

The same is true, of course, for both the Imperium itself and its nobility*. Now, consider the canonical interweaving of the latter with the megacorps.


*If you wish to distinguish between "the Nobility" and "the Imperium" at all.

Such a distinction also is dubious for the Megacorps and the 3I.

The same people are in charge of both, and work both for their own collective and individual benefits.

 

[aramis]

Right. Published materials for RPG are about what the PCs do. The material presented will be about the opposition and challenges the PCs might face.

Really? I don't think TCS is. It's clearly a wargame.

And the HG combat system is not very good at the small scales where PC's operate. You can't hit hard enough to strip armor. And you can armor (at TL12+) SDB's that require nukes to do more than strip weapons. (HG hits on absent systems are ignored - page 49, top).

Clearly, those aren't aimed at PC scale actions. (TCS explicitly isn't.)

And then CT Bk4 unit resolution, MT's Large Scale Combat, Mechwarrior's Battletech interface, Most Star Trek (licensed or not) games' ship-to-ship combat systems, Space Opera's ship design covering ships to the same scales as Traveller's Bk 5...

And all 4 star wars licensed games (WEG, d20, Saga, FFG) include ships so big that a "snub fighter" is "no threat"...

Spoiler:

General Dodonna: The battle station is heavily shielded and carries a firepower greater than half the star fleet. Its defenses are designed around a direct, large-scale assault. A small one-man fighter should be able to penetrate the outer defense.
Gold Leader: Pardon me for asking, sir, but what good are snub fighters going to be against that?
General Dodonna: Well, the Empire doesn't consider a small one-man fighter to be any threat, or they'd have a tighter defense. An analysis of the plans provided by Princess Leia has demonstrated a weakness in the battle station. But the approach will not be easy. You are required to maneuver straight down this trench and skim the surface to this point. The target area is only two meters wide. It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station. Only a precise hit will set off a chain reaction. The shaft is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes.
Wedge Antilles (Red 2): That's impossible! Even for a computer.
Luke: It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters.
General Dodonna: Then man your ships. And may the Force be with you.
(SW Ep IV, quoth at IMDB, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/quotes)

And then, a few oddball games, like Mars 2100 (BTRC) - players have both a PC and an entire faction, and play them both.

A lot of RPGs include stuff that's either non-character scale wargame or is background threat that players don't interact with on all scales.

 

[Condottiere]

We all need dragons we can aspire to to slay.

 

[creativehum]

Really?

Hi Aramis,

I'm somewhat confused by the way you open your post. It seems to suggest you're disagreeing with something I've said.

Yet, you go on to say...

I don't think TCS is. It's clearly a wargame.

To which I can only say, "Yup. We're not longer talking about RPGs anymore. We're talking about war-games." So, no disagreement.

If you want to argue that game lines can have products that straddle different kinds of games, you'll continue to get no argument from me. Like you I don't see High Guard being very useful for someone using Classic Traveller for RPG play.

The original discussion of this thread was about adventures for PCs, and I made my reply in the context of that discussion. If we're going to open up the discussion to matters that go beyond those concerns, we certain can... but at this moment you're not saying anything I wouldn't agree with.

Except, perhaps, one thing:

Those snub fighters did , of course, take out the Death Star. Those people who believed fighters did not pose a threat to the Death Star were wrong. In this, the tale of Star Wars: A New Hope is awesome RPG play.

In RPG play, scale of opposition being insurmountable -- or not -- is up to the Referee and the Players to navigate. Different gams and styles will offer different answers.

For me, if I'm playing CT and the PCs have a clever plan, we could have a wonderful set of sessions playing out how they take down some monstrous ship. But, again, I'm looking at this from the point of view of RPG play -- which was the point of view of my original post.

 

[aramis]

There is no line between wargames and RPGs, creativehum. None. It's a spectrum. TCS, if you're actually roleplaying the Naval Board, is still roleplaying.

And Pocket Empires is still character driven. I'm calling you out on the fallacy that (1) only things PC's should face are in RPG's and that (2) They're distinctly different from wargames.

My last D&D session would have played almost identically as a WFB game. The only difference being the motivations of the players.

Traveller is heavily influenced by wargaming; it makes no real distinction (nor did OE D&D) between wargames and RPGs. I've used the MegaTraveller rules for everything from straight up wargaming (counters on map no less) to character driven soap opera... the latter just by adding a few social rules built on expanding the reaction rolls with skills.

Were any of those not using the Traveller RPG rules? nope. The Marines in service game, was it RP? yes. Was it Wargame? Yes. Did I have individual character sheets for every marine in the Regiment? Yep. Did that Matter? Yes.

it's a spectrum. Traveller's always been in the midline, and made no distinction as to which it is, being sold as an RPG throughout.

 

[creativehum]

I disagree with your assessment. I see where you're coming from, but disagree.

But it's cool. I'm not seeing it as anything to get into a discussion about. I mean, "I'm calling you out..."? What is going on?

 

[pendragonman]

There is no line between wargames and RPGs, creativehum. None. It's a spectrum. TCS, if you're actually roleplaying the Naval Board, is still roleplaying.

And Pocket Empires is still character driven. I'm calling you out on the fallacy that (1) only things PC's should face are in RPG's and that (2) They're distinctly different from wargames.

My last D&D session would have played almost identically as a WFB game. The only difference being the motivations of the players.

Traveller is heavily influenced by wargaming; it makes no real distinction (nor did OE D&D) between wargames and RPGs. I've used the MegaTraveller rules for everything from straight up wargaming (counters on map no less) to character driven soap opera... the latter just by adding a few social rules built on expanding the reaction rolls with skills.

Were any of those not using the Traveller RPG rules? nope. The Marines in service game, was it RP? yes. Was it Wargame? Yes. Did I have individual character sheets for every marine in the Regiment? Yep. Did that Matter? Yes.

it's a spectrum. Traveller's always been in the midline, and made no distinction as to which it is, being sold as an RPG throughout.

We RP'd the SNOT out of the leader counters in Squad Leader

 

[Timerover51]

Simple answer: Any story of interest must have conflict.

To quote Rango: "People, I've had an epiphany. The hero cannot exist in a vacuum! What our story needs is an ironic, unexpected event that will propel the hero into conflict!"

It's hard to have a conflict with good guys. (Unless, of course, you're the bad guy.)

While in Alaska, in the Army, right after the pipeline was constructed and oil started flowing, the principal concern with respect to groups trying to damage the line or cause a major oil spill with the extreme environmentalist groups. How about portraying a group like that as "the bad guys"?

 

[aramis]

While in Alaska, in the Army, right after the pipeline was constructed and oil started flowing, the principal concern with respect to groups trying to damage the line or cause a major oil spill with the extreme environmentalist groups. How about portraying a group like that as "the bad guys"?

At least one published adventure has. I just don't recall which. Nor which format.

And Across the Bright Face is a "You're mercs, go away, while we the workers overturn good order and hold our revolution." Said workers are borderline terrorists, and definitely thieves.

In TTA, there's also the entire government of Psaydi, which is a wonderful blend of eco-nuts, religious zealots, and luddites...