A Publishing Idea...
- Thread starter William
- Start date
Myscha the sled dog
SOC-6
landscape!
Nothing beats seeing 4 pages at once.
Nothing beats seeing 4 pages at once.
Gallowglass
SOC-12
Portrait vs landscape issue: I think standard LBB size will be cheaper to produce and easier to display, but I could be wrong...
As for the page count, could someone explain WHY we will need 768 pages to do T5 in? Just because WW / WotC et al suffer from verbal diarrhoea and seem incapable of writing concisely, doesn't mean that FFE has to join the crowd IMO. And doing small books that contain useful information (rather than huge books that contain mountains of padding) would also help identify and sell the T5 "brand" in today's market place, another plus point I believe.
My personal feeling is that too many RPG supplements in the last few years have seemed needlessy padded to a certain length. One of the things that I think turned many gamers off from WW/TSR/WotC was the obsession with pushing ever more detailed elaborations of smaller and smaller sections of the gameworld / background for ever high prices (Clan Sourcebook this, Boxed background set for this bit of the World Map). It is my belief that background sourcebooks only indirectly help you to play the game (whatever game it is...). What TSR did very well in the eighties was realise that what helped people play the game was scenario's and what kept them coming back to that game were scenarios that gave them bits of a world to play with as well.
Save the great swathes of clever world building for the tie-in novels: no-one objects to richness of setting in a piece of fiction, but if I am buying a gaming supplement I want it to provide concrete assitance in my games, not an extra hill of information from the official background I have to weave into my game...
As for the page count, could someone explain WHY we will need 768 pages to do T5 in? Just because WW / WotC et al suffer from verbal diarrhoea and seem incapable of writing concisely, doesn't mean that FFE has to join the crowd IMO. And doing small books that contain useful information (rather than huge books that contain mountains of padding) would also help identify and sell the T5 "brand" in today's market place, another plus point I believe.
My personal feeling is that too many RPG supplements in the last few years have seemed needlessy padded to a certain length. One of the things that I think turned many gamers off from WW/TSR/WotC was the obsession with pushing ever more detailed elaborations of smaller and smaller sections of the gameworld / background for ever high prices (Clan Sourcebook this, Boxed background set for this bit of the World Map). It is my belief that background sourcebooks only indirectly help you to play the game (whatever game it is...). What TSR did very well in the eighties was realise that what helped people play the game was scenario's and what kept them coming back to that game were scenarios that gave them bits of a world to play with as well.
Save the great swathes of clever world building for the tie-in novels: no-one objects to richness of setting in a piece of fiction, but if I am buying a gaming supplement I want it to provide concrete assitance in my games, not an extra hill of information from the official background I have to weave into my game...
Crimson Cat
SOC-9
LBB size is my preference. Though I love having the reprints they are a little bit of a problem when I am running the game. They take up so much room on the table. I like to be able to keep everything behind my gaming screen. the adventures books at least be in a smaller format. It is hard enough some time to keep player from trying to get a peek at the adventure than when you have a book almost 2 feet long when open with maps you do not want the players to see.
I also like to be able to hold the book in one hand and work with the other.
I also like to be able to hold the book in one hand and work with the other.
I like the LBB format, but I am not sure I like the 256 page books.
I game book has to be open for hours at a time, and a 256 page book will crack at the spine without a really expensive binding, and a solid binding will be difficult to keep open.
The 48p LBB "stapled booklet" format is cheap to bind and can take an enourmous amount of abuse. Even new, you can hold them open at a particular page with a heavy eraser and they can be carried easily.
It will certainly take more than 3 books, but I always carried Books 1-7 and the striker books. If you can't do the core game in 240 pages (5 48p books, including a milieu book) you need a better editor.
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 08 June 2001).]
I game book has to be open for hours at a time, and a 256 page book will crack at the spine without a really expensive binding, and a solid binding will be difficult to keep open.
The 48p LBB "stapled booklet" format is cheap to bind and can take an enourmous amount of abuse. Even new, you can hold them open at a particular page with a heavy eraser and they can be carried easily.
It will certainly take more than 3 books, but I always carried Books 1-7 and the striker books. If you can't do the core game in 240 pages (5 48p books, including a milieu book) you need a better editor.
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 08 June 2001).]
Saddle-stapled LBBs can go up as high as 64pp without much problem (Twilight's Peak, JTAS #9, the early D&D supplements; even Books 4-7 were 56pp) though any more than that and the middle-pages coming loose becomes a concern.
I'm also not too crazy about thick square-bound LBBs; they're a bitch to keep open on a table without breaking the spine, and too many pages to flip through makes it hard to find any given page on a moment's notice. Fine for reading, but not for constant in-game reference.
For a theoretical LBB-based T^5 something like this could easily work:
Book 1: Characters and Tasks (48-56pp)
Book 2: Combat and Equipment (48pp)
Book 3: Ships and Vehicles (Design, Operation, Combat) (56-64pp)
Book 4: Worlds and Adventures (48-56pp)
With a minimum of illustrations, graphics, and 'color text,' that should be plenty of room (55% more than the original CT set had).
That said, for a ground-up rebuild of Traveller I still prefer a BHBB (big hardbound black book); I only really like the idea of LBBs for 'continuations' of the CT line (see the 'LBB Again' thread).
I'm also not too crazy about thick square-bound LBBs; they're a bitch to keep open on a table without breaking the spine, and too many pages to flip through makes it hard to find any given page on a moment's notice. Fine for reading, but not for constant in-game reference.
For a theoretical LBB-based T^5 something like this could easily work:
Book 1: Characters and Tasks (48-56pp)
Book 2: Combat and Equipment (48pp)
Book 3: Ships and Vehicles (Design, Operation, Combat) (56-64pp)
Book 4: Worlds and Adventures (48-56pp)
With a minimum of illustrations, graphics, and 'color text,' that should be plenty of room (55% more than the original CT set had).
That said, for a ground-up rebuild of Traveller I still prefer a BHBB (big hardbound black book); I only really like the idea of LBBs for 'continuations' of the CT line (see the 'LBB Again' thread).
The FFE 000 reprint is a 160 page LBB size perfect bound book, and I think it's great. The Traveller Book is also 160 pages, only 6 of which are specific to the 3I background.
I think the black cover is very Traveller and should be kept as this would definately make it stand out on the shelf.
I've rambled a bit, but am trying to say that you don't need monster 256 page tomes to be a good game. I've just read the Pendragon Book of Knights. Pendragon Lite if you prefer. A4, 48 pages, and a great introduction to the game. Maybe Traveller could do with a Traveller Lite. It could easily be done in 48 or 56 pages. Hmmm, I see a little project coming on
Paul Bendall
I think the black cover is very Traveller and should be kept as this would definately make it stand out on the shelf.
I've rambled a bit, but am trying to say that you don't need monster 256 page tomes to be a good game. I've just read the Pendragon Book of Knights. Pendragon Lite if you prefer. A4, 48 pages, and a great introduction to the game. Maybe Traveller could do with a Traveller Lite. It could easily be done in 48 or 56 pages. Hmmm, I see a little project coming on
Paul Bendall
FlightCommanderSolitude
SOC-13
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm also not too crazy about thick square-bound LBBs; they're a bitch to keep open on a table without breaking the spine, and too many pages to flip through makes it hard to find any given page on a moment's notice. Fine for reading, but not for constant in-game reference.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure I agree; the technical books from O'Reilly (http://www.oreilly.com/) use a binding called RepKover and are sometimes over 600 pages. They lie flat and open without paperweights (actually, the more pages the better) and take a real beating. I'm speaking in particular of their In a Nutshell series, which are roughly LBB sized. This binding might be more expensive, but IMO it's worth it.
In addition, the books usually have inked section markers on the edges, so it's very easy to flip through a given volume and find the right section.
Finally, they are great examples of high production values married to well-written, well-presented, eminently usable content. Next time you're in a bookstore, check out their Web Design in a Nutshell book for an example.
-fcs
[This message has been edited by FlightCommanderSolitude (edited 08 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by FlightCommanderSolitude (edited 08 June 2001).]
I'm not sure I agree; the technical books from O'Reilly (http://www.oreilly.com/) use a binding called RepKover and are sometimes over 600 pages. They lie flat and open without paperweights (actually, the more pages the better) and take a real beating. I'm speaking in particular of their In a Nutshell series, which are roughly LBB sized. This binding might be more expensive, but IMO it's worth it.
In addition, the books usually have inked section markers on the edges, so it's very easy to flip through a given volume and find the right section.
Finally, they are great examples of high production values married to well-written, well-presented, eminently usable content. Next time you're in a bookstore, check out their Web Design in a Nutshell book for an example.
-fcs
[This message has been edited by FlightCommanderSolitude (edited 08 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by FlightCommanderSolitude (edited 08 June 2001).]
Myscha the sled dog
SOC-6
64 books?
You sure you want to run a campaign or decorate a shelf!
Landscape!
hehe
You sure you want to run a campaign or decorate a shelf!
Landscape!
hehe
Gallowglass
SOC-12
Sooo,
something like 4 LBB Update books @56 pages each to redo the system, plus a fifth 56 page book detailing the essentials of (for example) Milieu 200, inluding one adventure and some patron encounter style seeds. The complete text from these five could also be reset and hard bound as a prestige hardback, combining five into a single volume.
BUT, for this to work, ready for simultaneous release needs to be _at least_ one big adventure (part one of a trilogy is OK), some sort of mini-adventures collection / 76 Patron's style clone and at least one Milieu 200 novel. There after, you can look at the usual suspects for FRP releases (Equipment catalogues, detiled Setting handbook) although I would strongly urge not gettin gtoo caught up in the mammoth setting book idea: one main sourcebook for each milieu, then weave additinal setting information into scenarios...
Also I think an early release should be a substantial handbook on variant Technologies, discussing how you can do hard SF campaigns at different tech levels and the various variants on FTL etc. There won't be room in the core rules to treat this topic in detail, but it is central to T5 as generic SF game. As is landing an early "name" license for a Variant Tech Milieu, to underline the point that T5 is a generic SF game...
something like 4 LBB Update books @56 pages each to redo the system, plus a fifth 56 page book detailing the essentials of (for example) Milieu 200, inluding one adventure and some patron encounter style seeds. The complete text from these five could also be reset and hard bound as a prestige hardback, combining five into a single volume.
BUT, for this to work, ready for simultaneous release needs to be _at least_ one big adventure (part one of a trilogy is OK), some sort of mini-adventures collection / 76 Patron's style clone and at least one Milieu 200 novel. There after, you can look at the usual suspects for FRP releases (Equipment catalogues, detiled Setting handbook) although I would strongly urge not gettin gtoo caught up in the mammoth setting book idea: one main sourcebook for each milieu, then weave additinal setting information into scenarios...
Also I think an early release should be a substantial handbook on variant Technologies, discussing how you can do hard SF campaigns at different tech levels and the various variants on FTL etc. There won't be room in the core rules to treat this topic in detail, but it is central to T5 as generic SF game. As is landing an early "name" license for a Variant Tech Milieu, to underline the point that T5 is a generic SF game...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gallowglass:
snip
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I'd say you don't want anything like that. What Marc really needs to find - bitch impossible though it really is - is another pair of Keith brothers at best or a J. Andrew Kieth at bare minimum.
I would argue that even though they sell like s^*&, adventures are what define a system. Can you really imagine D&D (assuming your as old a fart as I) without the secret of bone hill? And all the rest that followed? Or, on the other hand, has GURPS (without any real adventures) ever really made a name/found a voice/ for _itself_? (OGRE and Car Wars don't count to me - they are not the same system. They weren't designed with that crippling generic silliness holding them back)
And on the gripping hand is the ultimate example - The Traveller Adventure.(if you have never run a group through this, do so as soon as you can. There is a reason or three why the March Harrier is a legend... ;')
Kelly's Hero's springs to mind... ;'p
YMMV. This is only my opinion.
William
--
You better watch out What you wish for;
It better be worth it So much to die for.
Courtney Love
snip
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I'd say you don't want anything like that. What Marc really needs to find - bitch impossible though it really is - is another pair of Keith brothers at best or a J. Andrew Kieth at bare minimum.
I would argue that even though they sell like s^*&, adventures are what define a system. Can you really imagine D&D (assuming your as old a fart as I) without the secret of bone hill? And all the rest that followed? Or, on the other hand, has GURPS (without any real adventures) ever really made a name/found a voice/ for _itself_? (OGRE and Car Wars don't count to me - they are not the same system. They weren't designed with that crippling generic silliness holding them back)
And on the gripping hand is the ultimate example - The Traveller Adventure.(if you have never run a group through this, do so as soon as you can. There is a reason or three why the March Harrier is a legend... ;')
Kelly's Hero's springs to mind... ;'p
YMMV. This is only my opinion.
William
--
You better watch out What you wish for;
It better be worth it So much to die for.
Courtney Love
Gallowglass
SOC-12
Hmm, I think if you look at my middle paragraph, we're basically in agreement about what will actually make T5 sustainable, I just focussed a lot (too much?) on the initial launch.
People _like_world books (they are an alternative to reading true fiction) but what makes _games_ happen are adventures. And I think that TSR's greatest period was during the 80's when they were pushing out lots of adventures and weaving setting info into the scenarios (And yes remember Bone Hill, but then I have fond memories of The Keep on the Borderlands... ).
If T5 is going to work, it will need strong scenarios and I agree absolutely that something like the Traveller Adventure needs to hit the shelves within a month of T5's launch (and note that I said you would need _something_ scenario wise at the launch).
People _like_world books (they are an alternative to reading true fiction) but what makes _games_ happen are adventures. And I think that TSR's greatest period was during the 80's when they were pushing out lots of adventures and weaving setting info into the scenarios (And yes remember Bone Hill, but then I have fond memories of The Keep on the Borderlands... ).
If T5 is going to work, it will need strong scenarios and I agree absolutely that something like the Traveller Adventure needs to hit the shelves within a month of T5's launch (and note that I said you would need _something_ scenario wise at the launch).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by William:
No, I'd say you don't want anything like that. What Marc really needs to find - bitch impossible though it really is - is another pair of Keith brothers at best or a J. Andrew Kieth at bare minimum.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While William Kieth is still around, and writing novels, alas, J. Andrew Kieth passed on not long ago... and I don't expect he'd be willing to have some psi channel his further ideas for traveller art.
Seriously, finding another artist, let alone a pair of them, with as clear a vision is not going to be likely. For me, their works nearly define traveller for me visually.
------------------
-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
No, I'd say you don't want anything like that. What Marc really needs to find - bitch impossible though it really is - is another pair of Keith brothers at best or a J. Andrew Kieth at bare minimum.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While William Kieth is still around, and writing novels, alas, J. Andrew Kieth passed on not long ago... and I don't expect he'd be willing to have some psi channel his further ideas for traveller art.
Seriously, finding another artist, let alone a pair of them, with as clear a vision is not going to be likely. For me, their works nearly define traveller for me visually.
------------------
-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Oh my. Heresy. It really is the Traveller universe that makes the game. Adventures might do something for a percentage of the players so by all means publish them. BUT. It is only the Traveller universe that ties everything together. We have had at least 7 official rule systems now for Traveller. I cannot even begin to name the number of other game systems that have been used in the Traveller universe in an unofficial house rules way. But I'll list a few: Top-Secret Traveller, FUDGE Traveller, KB Traveller, Aria Traveller.
Heck I've wanted to, tried to, play Traveller in my own universe built with Traveller rules. There is only one point in time when this every worked. In the days before there was a Traveller universe. When the 'whole' Traveller universe was a description of a character generated under the rules named Jamison.
Heck anyone can find a way to put an adventure together. It took a lot of us many years to put the Traveller universe together.
Heck I've wanted to, tried to, play Traveller in my own universe built with Traveller rules. There is only one point in time when this every worked. In the days before there was a Traveller universe. When the 'whole' Traveller universe was a description of a character generated under the rules named Jamison.
Heck anyone can find a way to put an adventure together. It took a lot of us many years to put the Traveller universe together.
Gallowglass
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by n2s:
<snip>
Heck anyone can find a way to put an adventure together. It took a lot of us many years to put the Traveller universe together.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, but not the time. And to be frank, a lot of players and ref's don't give a monkeys about the subtle detail of the OTU, they want to play, and adventures facilitate that more effectively than any other material. And if well written they can also develop background and expand the setting.
I'm not saying that NO OTU background material should be published, but I genuinely believe that it should have a lower priority than good solid adventures that make it EASY to play Traveller - that is what will bring players to the game and the OTU, and thus allow for the development of the background.
(edited for typos)
[This message has been edited by Gallowglass (edited 20 June 2001).]
<snip>
Heck anyone can find a way to put an adventure together. It took a lot of us many years to put the Traveller universe together.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, but not the time. And to be frank, a lot of players and ref's don't give a monkeys about the subtle detail of the OTU, they want to play, and adventures facilitate that more effectively than any other material. And if well written they can also develop background and expand the setting.
I'm not saying that NO OTU background material should be published, but I genuinely believe that it should have a lower priority than good solid adventures that make it EASY to play Traveller - that is what will bring players to the game and the OTU, and thus allow for the development of the background.
(edited for typos)
[This message has been edited by Gallowglass (edited 20 June 2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by n2s:
Heck anyone can find a way to put an adventure together. It took a lot of us many years to put the Traveller universe together.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Anyone, eh? Please tell us how. I have only known a handful of referees in any system who could consistantly come up with a good adventure (Murph in Traveller and C&S, the Vargabeast in D&D (1st Edition), Fiddler James in Ars Magica and . . . I'm thinking.) I do know a lot of referees who think they make good adventures, because they don't know any better. Just look at the crap that TSR sold as adventures.
I'm with Gallowglas here: adventures are needed. I personally have always found it much easier to design game worlds, even game mechanics than adventures.
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 20 June 2001).]
Heck anyone can find a way to put an adventure together. It took a lot of us many years to put the Traveller universe together.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Anyone, eh? Please tell us how. I have only known a handful of referees in any system who could consistantly come up with a good adventure (Murph in Traveller and C&S, the Vargabeast in D&D (1st Edition), Fiddler James in Ars Magica and . . . I'm thinking.) I do know a lot of referees who think they make good adventures, because they don't know any better. Just look at the crap that TSR sold as adventures.
I'm with Gallowglas here: adventures are needed. I personally have always found it much easier to design game worlds, even game mechanics than adventures.
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 20 June 2001).]
lucasdigital
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
<SNIP>
I'm with Gallowglas here: adventures are needed. I personally have always found it much easier to design game worlds, even game mechanics than adventures.
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 20 June 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm with you on this one Uncle Bob.
Looking back at Traveller official material I see a lot of 'filler' material.
Don't get me wrong I am sure there is a place for Citizens of the Imperium and MT's COACC. However, when publications were few and far between you need to get some bangs for your bucks, or at least Sourcebook material which is 'play focused'.
The mileu was developed over decades through the adventures that players participated in.
Bottom line. Sourcebooks can be great if they are full of adventure hooks. Adventure and Campaign material alway represents the living blood of any Role Playing Game.
Mark
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Mark Lucas
Lucas-digital.com
<SNIP>
I'm with Gallowglas here: adventures are needed. I personally have always found it much easier to design game worlds, even game mechanics than adventures.
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 20 June 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm with you on this one Uncle Bob.
Looking back at Traveller official material I see a lot of 'filler' material.
Don't get me wrong I am sure there is a place for Citizens of the Imperium and MT's COACC. However, when publications were few and far between you need to get some bangs for your bucks, or at least Sourcebook material which is 'play focused'.
The mileu was developed over decades through the adventures that players participated in.
Bottom line. Sourcebooks can be great if they are full of adventure hooks. Adventure and Campaign material alway represents the living blood of any Role Playing Game.
Mark
------------------
Mark Lucas
Lucas-digital.com
Emperor Cleon
SOC-8
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by n2s:
Heck anyone can find a way to put an adventure together. It took a lot of us many years to put the Traveller universe together.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow, I envy you if that's true. Coming up with good adventures is the hardest part of GM'ing for me. I can crank out background universes by the truckloads though.
Personally, I have rarely used the official Traveller universe. When I do it's only because it's readily available. I generally prefer my own.
Heck anyone can find a way to put an adventure together. It took a lot of us many years to put the Traveller universe together.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow, I envy you if that's true. Coming up with good adventures is the hardest part of GM'ing for me. I can crank out background universes by the truckloads though.
Personally, I have rarely used the official Traveller universe. When I do it's only because it's readily available. I generally prefer my own.
It looks like I have universalized my own experience. I can crank a story and roll with the players. I've had a few good referees that could too. Maybe it was a learned skill.
My main point was and is, why associate a science-fiction roleplaying game based on a twenty-sided die with the Traveller name? Why take a 3D6 universal game and create a bunch of great selling background material as a Traveller licensee?
The Traveller universe. Game ideas are everywhere around me. Multi-level games are the norm in a game played by so many adults.
Persoanlly, as a referee I felt constrained inside the limits of someone elses adventure. And I never had a good experience inside one of the slick TSR ADnD published adventures.
I maintain we publish all the materials we can because the world is chock full of different kinds of people that come to the game with different hopes and fears, desires and disgusts.
Peace.
My main point was and is, why associate a science-fiction roleplaying game based on a twenty-sided die with the Traveller name? Why take a 3D6 universal game and create a bunch of great selling background material as a Traveller licensee?
The Traveller universe. Game ideas are everywhere around me. Multi-level games are the norm in a game played by so many adults.
Persoanlly, as a referee I felt constrained inside the limits of someone elses adventure. And I never had a good experience inside one of the slick TSR ADnD published adventures.
I maintain we publish all the materials we can because the world is chock full of different kinds of people that come to the game with different hopes and fears, desires and disgusts.
Peace.
