Considering getting 5.10

[islan]

Hi, I am relatively new to Traveller, but not to RPG's in general. I know 5.10 has been contentious, with some saying it's quite useful as a toolkit and others saying it is unplayable. I've been squinting at the few videos of people flipping through it, trying to decipher if it was a good fit for me. Sadly this method could only take me so far, which is why I'm now making this post to go over what I'm sorta looking for that, my chief concern, as well as touching upon my tastes, in the hope that people with experience in these books can help set my expectations right.

1. I am in the market for a "textbook-like" reference manual. This seems to be a main sticking point for a lot of people with 5.10 (other than 5th edition's history of kickstarter disappointment, that is). I admit, the thing that attracted me to Traveller in the first place years ago was its minimalist graphic design in Classic. Not only is 5.10's B&W text-heaviness not a problem for me, but I could see it as a boon if it's actually a good reference manual. But that leads me to one of my chief concerns:

2. I am worried 5.10 might not be a good reference work. I am aware there's a long thread concerning possible errata, though I am unsure how much affects its utility. A growing discomfort I had while watching people flip through the books was the idea that a lot of the text I was seeing might be unneeded information that serves little to no purpose other than to fill the pages. Of course, this is from just freezing on videos to squint at the pages, so it's hard to say how much merit these concerns have. An entire page gets devoted to demonstrating "size" and ranges, only for it to look like the chart is repeated just a few pages later--does this chart actually serve any useful purpose? The definition of the word "knowledge" looks like it gets repeated several times without seemingly any mechanical details on how it functions differently from a "skill". Why is an entire page devoted to daily sleep cycles? Why is an entire page devoted to repeating mostly the same adjectives over and over for the different Characterstic levels? It looks like there are a good number of mostly blank pages for world mapping that look like they are there just to be xeroxed. If I am buying a reference manual, I think I will feel disappointed if I'm only referencing less than half of the printed material. How is the ratio of "meat" to "flaff" in these tombs, really?

3. I think I prefer roll low on 2d6? A silly preference I know, but it does sound like 5.10 might have a more "fun" task resolution system than Classic Traveller with both roll low and flux dice. I do wonder how contentious it might with CT fans that 5e puts more of an emphasis on Characterstics (-5 to +5 vs. I think -2/-3 to +2/+3?) I've also seen some people complain about having to roll eight or twelves d6's at once, but from what I've seen, it looks like you're usually only rolling 2, maybe a max of 4?

4. I am not interested in owning many Traveller books, which is why I hadn't really bothered looking at Mongoose Traveller, as its main benefit seemed to be having ongoing support. I have considered getting PDF's of Classic Traveller to print out and staple bind, but I'm not sure how much I'd actively use CT other than as a curio.

5. I like the idea of the Third Imperium as a concept but not really all that interested in delving into its history or details, just looks like a nice idea to springboard off of to take my own game.

6. The only sci-fi game I currently own with interest in running is Diaspora. This Fate-based game is open about having a Traveller background, with the main difference of Diaspora's clusters being cut off from the rest of the galaxy and relying on slipknots instead of jump engines. Other than that inspiration being worn on its sleeve, however, it leaves much of the finer details to the players. If 5.10 proved to be a useful reference manual, I have wondered if its material would be beneficial in running Diaspora, or vice-versa.

7. No online support? Okay, I know what I said in item 4, but it is rather off-putting that I cannot find a 5.10 character sheet to download; is one really not available?

 

[ThornPlutonius]

I am a big fan of T5.10, I think there is very little "fluff" in the books. They are written in Mr. Miller's almost encyclopedic/tech manual style. The index is useless, so that does affect its usefulness as a reference book. I've read it from Book1/p1 through to the end of Book 3. I found, while reading, a comprehensive and well-thought out set of rules that really felt (while I was reading) like a coherent system for almost any sort of Traveller-style SciFi role playing, which left me with a buzz of anticipation for what I could do with the rules. However, I did not note where I found tidbits while I was reading and now have trouble tracking down and connecting together what I KNOW is in the book. So, if you are willing to put the time and effort into really studying it and tying the threads together, I suspect you will find a great system. If you are looking for something that requires less effort or time to digest, then you may be better served by something like Zozer Games' new "Cepheus Universal" rules (based upon the Cepheus Engine, which is based upon the Mongoose Traveller v1 SRD), it is intended to be able to be used to create just about any SciFi setting that the GM/Game designer might want for adventuring.

 

[Baroun Tardis]

I ran a weekly campaign for 18 months using T5.00 and later 5.09.
I ran a weekly game for 8 sessions before the story arc ended under 5.10.
T5.10 is a marked improvement on 5.09.

T5 is my current favorite version of Traveller. I've started in a game where I get to be a player using Mongoose 2, and there's a few things in there I like... But it's missing more things that T5 has that I like.

 

[agorski]

The index is useless, so that does affect its usefulness as a reference book

When writing my T5 apps I used the PDFs, which are searchable.

There are utilities which can extract all the icons and images from these PDFs, so that's another bonus.

In general, I had no problem grokking character generation or the Makers when writing my apps. 5.10 has minimal errata.

 

[whartung]

4. I am not interested in owning many Traveller books, which is why I hadn't really bothered looking at Mongoose Traveller, as its main benefit seemed to be having ongoing support. I have considered getting PDF's of Classic Traveller to print out and staple bind, but I'm not sure how much I'd actively use CT other than as a curio.

The $35 CT CD will give you so much Traveller, you'll choke on it.

If you want to buy an actual book, especially as a curio, I highly recommend the LWB. https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/355200/classic-traveller-facsimile-edition

$9, worth every penny.

As much as I like TNE FF&S and such, nowadays I think its better to just to make stuff up. We get far too fixated on arbitrary mechanics, when story telling is the only real mechanic that matters.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

1. I am in the market for a "textbook-like" reference manual. This seems to be a main sticking point for a lot of people with 5.10 (other than 5th edition's history of kickstarter disappointment, that is). I admit, the thing that attracted me to Traveller in the first place years ago was its minimalist graphic design in Classic. Not only is 5.10's B&W text-heaviness not a problem for me, but I could see it as a boon if it's actually a good reference manual. But that leads me to one of my chief concerns:

It contains a lot of information and a lot of systems, but it is not always well organised.

I suspect MWM knows what he means, but can't always make that readily apparent, perhaps in a quest for conciseness.

2. I am worried 5.10 might not be a good reference work. I am aware there's a long thread concerning possible errata, though I am unsure how much affects its utility. A growing discomfort I had while watching people flip through the books was the idea that a lot of the text I was seeing might be unneeded information that serves little to no purpose other than to fill the pages. Of course, this is from just freezing on videos to squint at the pages, so it's hard to say how much merit these concerns have.

Mistakes aren't really a problem, I think. Not understanding the systems from descriptions lacking detail might be...

An entire page gets devoted to demonstrating "size" and ranges, only for it to look like the chart is repeated just a few pages later--does this chart actually serve any useful purpose?

A lot of information and tables are repeated where they are referenced, that isn't a problem. When the different versions disagree, that might be a problem...

The definition of the word "knowledge" looks like it gets repeated several times without seemingly any mechanical details on how it functions differently from a "skill".

It's defined, if a bit spread out. Knowledge is basically the first theoretical training you get in school, Skill is actual experience of doing something. Both a Knowledge and a Skill can contribute to a task, see C+S+K.

Why is an entire page devoted to daily sleep cycles? Why is an entire page devoted to repeating mostly the same adjectives over and over for the different Characterstic levels?

Completeness? It's not worthless in an RPG.

It looks like there are a good number of mostly blank pages for world mapping that look like they are there just to be xeroxed. If I am buying a reference manual, I think I will feel disappointed if I'm only referencing less than half of the printed material. How is the ratio of "meat" to "flaff" in these tombs, really?

I haven't reflected about the ratio, but there is a LOT of meat in the books.

3. I think I prefer roll low on 2d6? A silly preference I know, but it does sound like 5.10 might have a more "fun" task resolution system than Classic Traveller with both roll low and flux dice. I do wonder how contentious it might with CT fans that 5e puts more of an emphasis on Characterstics (-5 to +5 vs. I think -2/-3 to +2/+3?) I've also seen some people complain about having to roll eight or twelves d6's at once, but from what I've seen, it looks like you're usually only rolling 2, maybe a max of 4?

You use the full characteristic, which is great. You roll barrels of dice, which gets wearisome quickly, it slows the game down.

If it's only two dice, it's barely worth rolling; the target number is often quite high as the full characteristic is used and skills are quite a lot higher than in earlier editions.


In summary:
T5 is shock-full of information and systems for an RPG, but you can't just open the book and start playing. It probably contains more information than any other edition.

If you want an easy life and just play a game, buy Mongoose or CT.

If you want a game that defines sleep cycles and visual acuity at different ranges (Size vs. Range), buy T5.

Or perhaps use T5 to add detail as desired to a game in an other edition.

 

[Kakistocrat]

The definition of the word “knowledge” looks like it gets repeated several times without seemingly any mechanical details on how it functions differently from a “skill”.

My take on “knowledges” vs. “skills” in Traveller⁵ can be found here.

 

[whulorigan]

It's defined, if a bit spread out. Knowledge is basically the first theoretical training you get in school, Skill is actual experience of doing something. Both a Knowledge and a Skill can contribute to a task, see C+S+K.

Or, to put it another way, knowledges are subsets of a skill.

For example:

ENGINEERING is a skill.
Contained KNOWLEDGES within Engineering include:

• Power Plants
• Jump Drives
• Maneuver Drives

When you initially learn engineering-related abilities, you learn knowledges, but upon your third point under a skill you gain a point in the SKILL itself (and skill and knowledge points stack). So someone who got "Engineering" 3 times during CharGen would put the first two points into contained knowledges, but his third point would go into Engineering itself. So if he put his first two points into Maneuver, he might have:

• Maneuver -2
• Engineering -1

meaning that he would perform Maneuver related tasks at skill-3 and all other engineering tasks at skill-1.

. . . You roll barrels of dice, which gets wearisome quickly, it slows the game down.

The multiples of dice represent difficulty levels (Average, Difficult, Formidable, . . . etc) - since it is roll-under, more dice means higher difficulty. So unless there are situations in the campaign with routinely ridiculous levels of difficulty, the bucketfuls of dice should not come up that often.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Or perhaps use T5 to add detail as desired to a game in an other edition.

This. It might well be playable (can't say I've tried) but holy COW is it an amazing resource for as much detail as you could want, and then some.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The multiples of dice represent difficulty levels (Average, Difficult, Formidable, . . . etc) - since it is roll-under, more dice means higher difficulty. So unless there are situations in the campaign with routinely ridiculous levels of difficulty, the bucketfuls of dice should not come up that often.

It's not that uncommon? Difficulty is often related to a number such as Range.

Let's say that a rifleman fires at a target at 200 m (R=3). SN is DEX + Skill + Knowledge, say 9 + 2 + 2 (Skill: Fighter-2 and Knowledge:Slug Thrower-2) = 13. Base difficulty is Range, so 3D. As Difficulty is higher than Skill, we have to add a die (This Is Hard! rule), so we have to roll 4D ≤ 13.

Operating a ship's sensor on a Scout is Target number = TL + C+S + Size-Range, say 12 + 13 + 7-7 = 25. Base difficulty is Range (S=7), so 7D. As Difficulty is higher than Skill, we have to add a die (This Is Hard! rule), so we have to roll 8D ≤ 25. The task is probably Uncertain, so the Referee rolls one of the dice hidden.
So, the player rolls 7 dice and the Referee rolls 1 die, the Referee adds up the dice, checks the number of sixes and ones for spectacular failure or success, and feeds the player information accordingly.

 

[islan]

Thank you all for your insights!

I am a big fan of T5.10, I think there is very little "fluff" in the books.

I probably should've used a different word, but to avoid possible confusion: I meant "flaff" as in "flaffin' about", i.e., using a lot of words to say a lot of nothing, not "fluff" as some people refer to world-building or in-universe info. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think that's what I meant.

Completeness? It's not worthless in an RPG.

While I did wonder if people actually made use of them, I was also concerned that the info they seemed to impart could've been much more concisely displayed.

You use the full characteristic, which is great. You roll barrels of dice, which gets wearisome quickly, it slows the game down.

If it's only two dice, it's barely worth rolling; the target number is often quite high as the full characteristic is used and skills are quite a lot higher than in earlier editions.

So are you saying that rolling against difficulties of Average (2D) or Difficult (3D) are not the standard?

Oh, and something I was also curious about: how many of you actively engage in the QREBS system? I've heard some off-hand comment or two about it being "great", but not much more detail on it.

 

[whulorigan]

It's not that uncommon? Difficulty is often related to a number such as Range.

Let's say that a rifleman fires at a target at 200 m (R=3). SN is DEX + Skill + Knowledge, say 9 + 2 + 2 (Skill: Fighter-2 and Knowledge:Slug Thrower-2) = 13. Base difficulty is Range, so 3D. As Difficulty is higher than Skill, we have to add a die (This Is Hard! rule), so we have to roll 4D ≤ 13.

Operating a ship's sensor on a Scout is Target number = TL + C+S + Size-Range, say 12 + 13 + 7-7 = 25. Base difficulty is Range (S=7), so 7D. As Difficulty is higher than Skill, we have to add a die (This Is Hard! rule), so we have to roll 8D ≤ 25. The task is probably Uncertain, so the Referee rolls one of the dice hidden.
So, the player rolls 7 dice and the Referee rolls 1 die, the Referee adds up the dice, checks the number of sixes and ones for spectacular failure or success, and feeds the player information accordingly.

Alright, I'll give you that one (i.e. the space-sensor range one and similar tasks such as high-jump astrogation). But for most tasks that are being assigned a difficulty like your rifleman example above, or a repair task (etc). they shouldn't be that high. (I don't consider 4D or less excessive; 5D is borderline for me).

 

[Dirk Le Daring]

G'day. I am no expert on Traveller, but have loved the game since being introduced to it in about 1985-6 ish.

I have some CT, some Megatraveller, not much of either. Have played a bit though, mostly CT though. Played a bit of Mongoose as well, though not much.

I also have Traveller 5.10, which is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of Traveller core rules.

I have read and heard that 5.10 is not a game, there is no game there or it is not a game system. I think this is purely because their is a perception that in order to be a game or game system there has to be a setting. 5.10 provides no setting at this time.

Confusing and all over the place. I have come across this as well. And while it may seem to be so, it is not that hard. At first I did have some trouble trying to figure things out based on my memory of CT, that was a less than optimal approach.

I read the books from cover sequentially, and by the time I was about half way through book 2 things were clicking into place.

5.10 gives you everything you need. I doubt you will regret buying it.

As for everything else, you can just use what was published by others, ships, weapons, equipment can all be restatted or remade using the makers, as for star systems, they seem to be uniform across all editions of Traveller, and there is The Map which is fantastic.

I give 5.10 two thumbs up. (except for the index)

 

[Dragoner]

I have played it, even ran a short adventure in the play test forum. I like it, don't regret buying it all, it is a handy Traveller resource. I think the biggest difference is that it favors characteristics over skills, and Don pointed me to T4 as a place to see where a lot of it evolved from. I love CT though it is not CT, if someone was looking for that they might be disappointed, however, I have used stuff from T5 in a CT game, like the datacaster turret.