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A Question about mother/fuel ships

V

VonPickles

SOC-12
So IMTU i have awarded contracts to two producers for "Fast Patrol" craft the first prototype "Black Talon" utilises drop tanks for its fuel requirements, for the second company im wanting "Stripped" down "Strike Scouts" that refuel and reload from a mother ship.
so is there any rules for making this?
how would i go about this, what T do i need to allow for transfer equip?
Im using HGS is there some user defined code i can enter to account for this?

any ideas, comments, guidance will be greatly appreciated!!!

BTW because ive missed it somewhere what is the rule for ammunition? and T's for storage/magazine?
 
The strike scouts need to be able to dock - there's no transfer equipment in CT, but the ability to transfer up to 60% of hull tonnage in 20 minutes or less is able to be divined out of the jump rules as standard - no special gear is needed to use drop tanks to jump.

So, a docked craft should be able to take on up to 60% of its own volume, IMO, in that same time frame.
 
If im reading what your saying correctly, the smaller craft is 60% the overall T of the bigger craft?
and when you say Docked do you mean taken on board similar to a carrier?
 
"Docked" means "firmly attached to a mother ship's access/utility/supply systems". Could be in a hangar, or a fitted compartment, or could be just grappled on, LASH-style.

So a smaller ship (call it 100 tons) docks with the mothership, and is able to transfer up to 60% of its volume in fuel (i.e. 60 tons) to itself from the mothership in somewhere around 20 minutes.
 
VonPickles said:
If im reading what your saying correctly, the smaller craft is 60% the overall T of the bigger craft?
and when you say Docked do you mean taken on board similar to a carrier?
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You're not reading it right.

If a 10 ton craft is docked in/to a 100 ton craft, it should be able to suck 6 tons (60% of the smaller craft's volume) in fuel in a single turn.

The larger craft should be able to feed out 60T in a turn to a variety of subcraft.

Assuming, of course, that it's not tied to the JDrive itself having the pumps.

The source of this figure, sblocked for those who wish to skip over it...
Spoiler:
A ship can suck an amount equal to its jump fuel in a single turn from drop tanks. The CT HG turn is 20 minutes.

Since the maximum HG fuel rate is 60%, and it has to be able to refill the main tanks within that 20 minutes, and it burns the main tanks in 20 minutes, it has to be able to suck in that 60% of its own hull per 20 minutes.

This gives, BTW, 3% per minute fuel rate. Which means a rate of 42kL per minute... given a 20cm diameter fill pipe, the fluid inside is needing to do 80km/h. Given a 30cm pipe, 36 kph.

Using: http://www.1728.org/flowrate.htm
 
Carlobrand said:
Actually, I was more worried about the tender.
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Except for T5 and MT, there's little to go on.

In MT, we know that anything within 1-1.5m of the ship jumping is inside the jump field, and goes with.

So, if not including T5, expand the hull by 1.5m in every direction, and cut it right there.

In T5, things are different. But I'm not discussing that outside of the T5 private area.
 
Carlobrand said:
Sooooo...

What happens if some little ship decides to jump while docked to a fueler?:devil:
Click to expand...

To expand on Aramis' answer. Jump shuttle or various type of jump "tug" (to be used as generic term) are used in CT. There is therefore no problem when "proper" procedure are taken. Just compute the agregated hulls as one ship.

Now, what if an "accident" (including terror act, highjacking ect) was to happen? IMTU it is linked to two circumstances: really docked (in or out) or merely linked by fuel line to the tanker? There is also ratio of jump engine to tonnage. The circumstances are numerous and I am not sure we could give every options, I focus on those two, but the ref will have to make calls.

As example in MTU: the jump engine of a 100t scout is activated while inside the 1000 scout service Xtender. It could could not J-1 the whole array even if you pretend that a jump field expand harmlessly to include the tender. IMTU, both would be destroyed because of the totally out of spec occurence. If the scout was docked outside a tender intended to ferry a scouting flotilla on long distances, a proper jump is impossible on the ground of the scout engine capability but the array is intended to jump together to start with. Of course, the positionning of the jump engine may be a problem given the bubble theory. But IMTU the consequence would be a misjump. An emergency hail mary crash jump to avoid destruction or capture computed and prepared to the best of what could be done would be almost a normal misjump while a sabotage would be more likely to generate a catastrophy. Yes, when the rogue pwr-up would be noticed, the offending scout would be jetissoned from the tender if possible, making it a oddball sabotage, but... games are games.

If a 4,000 t destroyer jump while a 500 t fuel shuttle (the tanker) have not yet gone out of harms way, (might even have the fuel line connected) Id write off the tanker and might not missjump the destroyer. But it is all IMTU.

Selandia
 
aramis said:
Except for T5 and MT, there's little to go on.

In MT, we know that anything within 1-1.5m of the ship jumping is inside the jump field, and goes with.

...
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Nastiness! Fleeing terrorists force their way aboard a ship at the highport, make a desperate and almost certainly doomed jump - and trash the berth in the process. Dramatic!

On that misjump bit: a ship risks misjump if it's too close to another ship? Ships have to be a hundred ship-diameters apart for safe jump? Could my free trader misjump if it tried to jump as the customs cutter is docking for inspection?

That's a facet I'd never considered.
 
Carlobrand said:
Nastiness! Fleeing terrorists force their way aboard a ship at the highport, make a desperate and almost certainly doomed jump - and trash the berth in the process. Dramatic!

On that misjump bit: a ship risks misjump if it's too close to another ship? Ships have to be a hundred ship-diameters apart for safe jump? Could my free trader misjump if it tried to jump as the customs cutter is docking for inspection?

That's a facet I'd never considered.
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You jump within 10 diameters, and the misjump is automatic, and usually fatal. The capital murder charges will ensure that you can't go back.
 
aramis said:
You jump within 10 diameters, and the misjump is automatic, and usually fatal. The capital murder charges will ensure that you can't go back.
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Is automatic and fatal unless you're a scout (and very lucky) in CT. Success is possible but a longshot in MT, if your EDU and Engineering are high enough, and survival odds are actually quite reasonable - assuming "survival" is measured purely by the ship not immediately becoming a fireball. After that, it's more a question of where you end up.

And, again, does that apply when you're within 10 "diameters" of a Customs ship, or inside a tender? That seemed to be your initial assertion, and there's logic to it - since spacecraft usually sport a grav field for the comfort of crew and passengers, and that might have an influence - but I don't recall running into that interpretation before.
 
GypsyComet said:
The object must be bigger than the jumping ship, though how much bigger is not entirely clear.
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T5 makes it explict that ANYTHING bigger triggers it, not just worlds.

There's a reference somewhere in MT about it as well.

CT says :
Misjump: Each time the ship engages in a jump, throw 13+ for a misjump: Apply the following DMs: +Iif using unrefined fuel (and not equipped to do so), +5 if within 100 planetary diameters of a world, +I5 if within 10 planetary diameters of a world. If the result is 16+, then the ship is destroyed.​

JTAS 22, p27-28, From Port To Jump Point, by Leroy Guatney, notes:
The presence of mass disturbs the local space-time continuum in such a way as to have an effect upon the injection into or out of jumpspace. This is true of bodies in size from starships and up to and including stars. If a pilot or navigator is not cautious, a rnis&rnp may result from close proximity to a massive object. Since this hyper-dimensional physics construct is based upon mass, the extrama of the jumpspace function fall to simple diameter ranges in which it is safer to enter jwmpspace. The thumbnail rule is, a body can not affect n jump when made from beyond 100 of that body's diameters.​

T5 concurs with Mr. Guatney, noting the absolute destruction of a smaller object when a larger jumps from within 100 of the larger's diameters... Mr. Guatney merely implied some effect.

In JTAS 24, Marc writes, in Jumpspace, p34:
Entering jump is possible anywhere, but the perturbing effects of gravity make it impractical to begin a jump within a gravity field of more than certain specific limits based on size, density, and distance. The general rule of thumb is a distance of at least 100 diameters out from a world or star (including a safety margin), and ships generally move away from worlds and stars before beginning a jump.

The perturbing effects of gravity preclude a ship from exiting jump space within the same distance. When ships are directed
to exit jump space within a gravity field, they are precipitated out of jump space at the edge of the field instead.​

Note that Marc appears to have come to agree with Leroy... So, it's not whole cloth. (Note: I had JTAS 22 back in the 80's in dead tree. I didn't have JTAS 24, nor BOJTAS 4, until much later - mid 90's.)
 
With the ship firmly docked who says it needs to use only one fuel pipe? This is done during in-flight refuelling for technical reasons but IRL I have seen ships serviced by two pipes for oil and a third for water (Chanell Tug on the dock, either that or pay overtime :) ) And some IRL military vehicles have more than one (Leopard II, M36B2) fuel inlet and can be filled through them simultaniously having multiple fuel (storage)cells
 
mbrinkhues said:
With the ship firmly docked who says it needs to use only one fuel pipe? This is done during in-flight refuelling for technical reasons but IRL I have seen ships serviced by two pipes for oil and a third for water (Chanell Tug on the dock, either that or pay overtime :) ) And some IRL military vehicles have more than one (Leopard II, M36B2) fuel inlet and can be filled through them simultaniously having multiple fuel (storage)cells
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Indeed, unless you use sophisticated building rules that charges for such item as the number of docking clamps or hook-up points (I do not know every Travellers rule systems), the "line" or "service hook-ups" might be whatever number of inlets, ammount of piping, valve, wiring, ducts, pumps, gear, servo ... needed to perform to the specified P/M/J & whatever else level. The beauty of CT design is its simplicity. The devil in the systems is that anything fancy is extrapolated, with endless debate about OTU Canon and IMTU. I love gaming systems where starships that would requires many 10,000 of hours/staff to design could be done by players in less than an hour. However, I need to know what to answer to a player that have a bright idea about reversing the power flow of the hooks-ups of the Tender/Rider combo once I pronounce the challenge of the week: " Your tender came out of Jump to fuel at a gas giant in an uninhabited system. Power plant of the tender is dead and cannot be repaired with shipboard ressource, what do you do?".

Selandia
 
However, I need to know what to answer to a player that have a bright idea about reversing the power flow of the hooks-ups of the Tender/Rider combo once I pronounce the challenge of the week: " Your tender came out of Jump to fuel at a gas giant in an uninhabited system. Power plant of the tender is dead and cannot be repaired with shipboard ressource, what do you do?".
Click to expand...

Use the riders as generators to power the tender, imo, there isn't a logical reason it can't be done.
 
I have a vague memory of a US nuclear sub being linked to an african city to provide power to the local grid... it could have been a carrier or cruiser.
 
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