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A question about the RC and balkanized worlds

So I'm putting together a TNE campaign that will hopefully start in February. Now I'm planning to start it somewhere between 1201 and 1248 so as to have a lot of flexibility in my setting and the option to adapt new material as it becomes available. But after finally reading Path of Tears for the first time I have some questions/theories about the reformation coalition's expansion.

My premises are as follows:

1) Decapitation raids will be rare, and in many cases are more trouble than they are worth. Knocking out a TED is only worthwhile if he is incompetent, hated, the ruler of most of a world and easily taken out. The first decapitation raid was an accident and Path of Tears makes it sound as if it is tricky to duplicate.

2) The RCES is just spread too thin to wage endless wars of conquest, at least within their projected timeline.

3) Where possible, the Coalition will expand by treaty, using diplomacy, trade, and bootstrapping operations to persuade folks to join them, and join them fast.

All of this makes me question how they planned to deal with balkanized worlds. In many cases I think they would face three choices: Unite the planet by force, build-up one or two friendly nations and wait until they steamroll over the rest of the world, or three, and my favorite, let individual nations from balkanized worlds join.

I know its kind of counter-intuitive to let parts, even small parts, of individual worlds join an interstellar government, but I think it’s one of the few ways that the Reformation Coalition could quickly expand throughout Diaspora and Old Expanses sectors. And it would be an elegant way to deal with the Yontez situation (let one or two nations with a couple of Billion join and slowly integrate the rest).

What do you think? Would the Coalition allow this kind of piecemeal expansion or is it ‘One World, One Government,’ all the way?
 
There are all sorts of issues with the whole '1 planet = 1 vote' sort of approach. I mean, if you are any sort of democrat, shouldn't 1 sophont = 1 vote? If so, doesn't that mean that a planet of 200 souls shouldn't have the say that a planet of 3 billion has? If that's the case, then no reason why balkanized populations (still worth 1 vote per guy/gal/?) shouldn't be able to join.

Of course, you may get into interesting issues inside the atmospheric envelope or near orbit of planets that have only 'partly' joined, but that's what diplomacy, intelligence/espionage agents, covert ops teams, and 'economic persuasion' are all about.

Of course, if you organized some sort of bi-cameral system with 1 sophont = 1 vote, then added in 1 planet = 1 rep in the secondary house, you'd have more of a balance of minority rights.

PS, when you say 'Lovely Montreal', I take it you don't mean the roads?
<I used to work out of Montreal intermittently.... considering how many $$$ go into your roads, they're an embarassment...>
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:


Of course, if you organized some sort of bi-cameral system with 1 sophont = 1 vote, then added in 1 planet = 1 rep in the secondary house, you'd have more of a balance of minority rights.
Agreed. I was working on a "future history" of the RC before the 1248 material started coming out, and one of the things I realized pretty quickly was that the RC is going to need a bicameral legislature. The smaller planets like Baldur and Ra are never going to agree to straight population representation, but Oriflamme has too good a point when they say that the average citizen of a smaller planet effectively has several hundred votes compared to an Oriflammen's one.

If you assume that some kind of bicameral legislature develops- say, a Senate to go with the Assembly of Worlds- then there's no problem with admitting parts of balkanized worlds. Let them have the same number of AoW delegates as everyone else, then give them enough Senators to reflect the number of RC citizens on the planet.

I definately agree that on most of the worlds described in Path of Tears, decapitation strikes would be ineffective at best and probably counterproductive, and forced integration not much better. This is particularly true on worlds like Yontez that have large populations and many nation-states of at least comparable power. The story of RC expansion is going to be much more about diplomacy and boostrap than raids in the post-1201 period, methinks, with more and more worlds being coded TDO and SAG missions increasingly directed against a few hostile worlds. (Arturo I, pick up Line 1 please. You have a call from Mr. Ritter on Line 1)

Edit: This game wouldn't happen to be online or PBEM, would it?
 
The interesting thing about what Chaser suggests is the reverse of the usual - usually the house that proposes bills is the house with rep-by-pop and the 'sober second look' where minority rights are protected is the equal rep (1 vote for each polity) section. The organization he suggests is opposite to that and I wonder what implications that has (and why we haven't, to my knowledge, seen an example of that in existing bi-cameral solutions).
 
Perhaps a minimum party number limit. If there are 10 sophants that agree on a certain course for them to take they could start their own party.
Perhaps you would then get adventurer parties of 10 to start their own politcal Party? Oh what Fun that would be
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For the hi-pop worlds, I'm thiking they'd divide and conquor - in Path of Tears, p. 87, they discuss Yontez. They state, "This one planet has over four times as many people as does the entire Coalition. It is currently balkanized (which is to be expected with a population this large), and it is in the Coalition's interests that it remain so. We cannot absorb a single political entity this large and have any hope of remaining what we are. We can, however, absorb Yontez gradually, over time, by courting smaller states first and admitting them as sovereign entities. Our watchword must be, "divide and overcome." "

Yontez is listed as having 8 billion. Of course, giving the nations votes piecemeal would piss off Oriflamme no end.
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
The interesting thing about what Chaser suggests is the reverse of the usual - usually the house that proposes bills is the house with rep-by-pop and the 'sober second look' where minority rights are protected is the equal rep (1 vote for each polity) section. The organization he suggests is opposite to that and I wonder what implications that has (and why we haven't, to my knowledge, seen an example of that in existing bi-cameral solutions).
The British House of Lords originally had powers equal to the House of Commons. It could effectively reverse the roles. Of course it doesn't have a "equal representation" composition.

Actually, most of the upper houses in Australian parliaments were originally appointed, rather than elected bodies. Their powers were originally comparable to the elected bodies too. Then again, in the case of New South Wales, at least, the "upper house" was created some decades before the lower house, as a body to advise the Governor.

At least, that's how I remember it. I would need to check the details.

Alan B
 
So I'm not crazy thinking about a Coalition expanding piecemeal with a few member nations here, and a planet there. And I think the bicameral solution was pretty much a given.

Here's a second question for y'all...

Path of Tears makes it clear that even if they could absorb all of Yontez, the powers that be in the Coalition aren't gung ho at the prospect of doubling its population and messing with their political balance. But isn't that a given? With their ambitious expansion timeline, I think its safe to assume that the number of sophonts in the Coalition was going to explode with or without Yontez. What do you think would (or did IYTU) happen as a result?

Would Coalition politics have been largely become a race between different ideological groups to secure worlds that vote their way?

Hell, would the Coalition stay true to their democratic ideals and make every new planet a full member immeadiately or would their be 'first class' worlds and 'second class' worlds?

Personally, I'm thinking that once the ball gets rolling it would take on a life of its own. Decapitated worlds would likely start as junior members, while worlds that joined due to diplomacy would likely have to send representatives before the ink was dry. I suspect that old ideologies and alliances would shift and change rapidly while new ones constantly emerged.

I also suspect that the elites of Oriflamme would likely do something rash during the early period of expansion to try to stave off merely becoming a moderate sized fish in a gigantic pond. Or they would be destabilzed after committing their marines to one too many decapitation/bootstrapping quagmires (you know, the raids that give Star Vikings their bad names).
 
There's some mention in the Coalition Infonet articles that were published of some worlds joining with "observer" status- they have an observer in the AoW and can participate in trade agreements, but can't vote and receive limited other assistance. IIRC, all new worlds joined on this status for a probationary period, then could either continue as observers or petition to join as full members of the Coalition.

With that in mind, I think what you'll see is worlds brought in by diplomacy following this route to membership, while worlds that were "decapitated" spend a variable amount of time as administered territories of the Coalition as a whole before being allowed to start the process of becoming members. The ideals of the Coalition- i.e. rebuilding all of Charted Space- may take something of a beating, since the newly integrated worlds will doubtless argue for a period of consolidation before any further expansion is undertaken. This, in turn, could lead to some of the more infamous "Star Viking" excesses, as missions sponsored by these new worlds begin to see the Wilds as a storehouse to be looted rather than a home for people that will one day join the RC.

As for the Flamers...that's a whole different post, if you're really interested. Suffice it to say that I should preface my ideas on that with the disclaimer that I tend to regard F-tech governments as "TEDs by another name", and it sorta shows.
 
Hey, I would love to here what your thoughts on the future of Oriflamme and its role in the Coaltion would be. If I ever feel like running a 'high-political space-thriller' I think I'd do it around the Oriflamme trying to make a move to become the dominant power in the coalition.
 
Probably the Coalition would limit membership to those that they need at first - after all, limited resources means limited missions [diplomatic or other] so the 'best' candidates would get approached [or decapitated] first. And I can see them doing their best to get a nation or two from Yontez, both for the resources and people, and to keep Oriflamme from singing the 'we do all the heavy lifting' song all the time.

The control of the Planning Groups would become the focus of some brutal political infighting - Oriflamme wanting the missions to bring in TEDs/F-techs, the Aubani wanting more democratic types of worlds. Would a few 'accidents' be arranged to create vacancies on those boards? Who knows?
 
Originally posted by Cad Lad:
Hey, I would love to here what your thoughts on the future of Oriflamme and its role in the Coaltion would be. If I ever feel like running a 'high-political space-thriller' I think I'd do it around the Oriflamme trying to make a move to become the dominant power in the coalition.
Okay, here goes.

The government of Oriflamme is a feudal technocracy, or government by interactions between (relatively) small self-interested groups, each of which derives its power from control over some special technical ability or equipment. (I realize that this definition is open to debate, but it's the one I use and will use in my considerations below) This system of government came about during the Hard Times and the Collapse, during which it probably evolved on the skeleton of the old public utility, education, police and military apparatus. The sky's falling, people don't know what to do, so the people who normally keep the lights and water going all get together and do what needs to be done. People not in these groups don't get a vote, but times are tough and the planet can't afford the luxury of democracy, which might fritter away irreplacable high-tech resources. (Or so the thinking goes)

End result: The lights stay on, sewage still gets carted away, some semblance of public order is maintained/restored, and most people accept the system for bringing some measure of stability in a troubled time.

Now, fast forward a couple of generations, to the end of the 1190s. The technarchs, who are descended from the original holders of technological power, maintain effective control over Oriflamme through economic and educational means. Economic, because they control access to any advanced technology left on the planet, which gives them an enormous amount of leverage over economic actors without such access- try being a doctor at TL-9 when the guy down the street is in service to a technarch and has relic TL-13 metabolics and the possibility of getting anagathics for his patients, or a construction contractor when your machines run on gasoline and the technarch's vassal has ones that need only a tenth as much gas, or run on water (fusion). As a result, they probably control most of Oriflamme's local (TL-9) production capability as well. When that much of a world's economy is in so few hands, the real global economy becomes exchanges between technarchs, rather than a market system where everyone is on equal footing given equal money, and the feudal system is essentially complete.

Educational, because while admission to schools which teach technical, scientific, and administration skills may be competitive in theory, blood relation to or the personal reccomendation of a technarch carries a huge amount of weight, and once those spaces are filled there's not much room left for those who aren't anybody and don't know anybody.

End result: Economic power is effectively concentrated in the hands of the technarchs, who inherited their positions from their ancestors, who were in positions of technological power before the Collapse. They perpetuate this control by limiting access to both high technology and the education needed to use it effectively, and then translate this economic power into political power. Ordinary citizens of Oriflamme enter into service with technarchs if they want access to high technology, and thus become part of the "favor economy" between technarchs. If they don't, they're basically trapped at TL-9 (or lower) and are going to be at a huge disadvantage relative to those not in service. IIRC, most Oriflammen are "in service" to one technarch or another, which probably explains the system's longevity- for all that it works tremendously in the technarchs' favor, it probably does deliver a decent high-tech lifestyle to the majority of Oriflammen. Another factor keeping it in place would be psychological momentum- the system was imposed as a necessary measure during the Collapse, and given the attitude of most Oriflammen convincing them that some kind of centralized control is still necessary would not be that hard.

So, that's my take on what things look like on Oriflamme, cerca now. Technarchs run the show, with most people at least content with their rule, and will probably continue to do so as long as they can keep the goodies coming to maintain their peoples' lifestyles. There is a resistance, but at the moment it's fairly small and composed mostly of Marine veterans.

The real rub is going to be the technarchs' ability to keep delivering the high-tech goods- and lifestyle that comes with it- to their people. IMTU, that's what's behind the large number of Oriflamme-sponsored SAG raids and the conquest of Spencer- the need of the technarchs to constantly have large sources of advanced tech available to distribute to their population and bolster their own positions. That's also why they wanted the Ship Bill Aurora s so badly- they need the ability to launch large raids of their own, and can't keep losing out the juciest targets to RCES-sponsored missions. If Borgund becomes large-ship certified, look for a modified Aurora design out of there before too long, in service to the technarchs.

With that in mind, I see three possibilities:

1) The technarchs win out. The resistance never gathers enough members to be really effective, or it alienates too many people with excessive violence, or not enough people become convinced that the technarchs aren't worth the social cost of maintaining them. Oriflamme continues to raid extensively, possibly seeking dominant power in the Coalition to shape policy in this direction, possibly trading support for the Coreward strategy for a free hand to trailing and rimward. Nothing much changes, barring a Flamer power play.

2) The rebels win. SAG raids drop off, and the technarchs can't come up with enough goodies to keep justifying their control of the planet. Maybe there's an armed revolt, maybe a general strike, maybe the technarchs see the handwriting on the wall and step down, or a combination of all three. Oriflamme is now basically open for a new form of government, and what emerges will determine the fate of one of the biggest populations in the Coalition. Good luck.

3) Secession and war. Things go as (1) above, but the technarchs decide that with RC ideals and Aubani leadership holding them back, they'll never be able to sustain the pace of expansion they need to perpetuate their rule. Oriflamme withdraws from the Coalition and begins an extensive campaign of raid and conquest to trailing and rimward, particularly into the Alpha Crucis sector. I don't believe that there would be an initial move from the RC to stop secession, since the RC itself probably lacks the resources to do so and certainly couldn't pacify Oriflamme if it came to that. However, since this turn of events will almost certainly lead to Oriflamme attacking worlds the RC feels bound to protect, war of some sort is probably inevitable, and if the population of Oriflamme does not seem to favor secession the RC may launch a decap strike against one of its own.

(Note- AFAIK, #3 is basically my own speculation, and nothing of this sort was ever planned in the OTU)

*Whew* Sorry for the long post, but I did warn you. There you have it, Chaser's complete thoughts on the hows and why of Oriflamme...
 
4) The Technarcs "evolve" into the standard F-tech type that wasn't all that rare in the Imperial period. Not there wouldn't be instances of 1 and 2 in specific territories of Oriflamme. Victims of #2 would be proponents of #3.
 
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