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A question for people who know about guns than me

AndreaV

SOC-13
Okay I'm busily writing a Traveller based story and have a question. Below is the description of a character who the party is trying to train to shoot. These describe the start point. So how long do people think it should take to get her 'up to speed?'

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It was mid morning now and I was standing in the Gubashiidi's shooting range. I smiled, this was one way of working off my irritation from breakfast. Isabella had finally taken me up on my offer to help her improve her skill with a pistol. I was waiting for her, squeezing off a few rounds on my own first. I'd borrowed a pistol from Gubashiidi Geenant for Isabella to use and was refreshing myself with it. My grouping was off, I guess being annoyed was not helping my aim. I heard her approach “Hey I borrowed this for you.”
I carefully put the gun down and turned, she was carrying one of those metal attaché cases “It's okay, I've brought my own.”
She opened the case “Isabella, where the hell did you get that and what in Sesh's name are you expecting!” there was a <<snub machine carbine>>() in the case.
She smiled “That's for later, I thought I'd start with this.”
She pulled a small pistol from the case, a <<body pistol>>(). “Okay where did you get either of those. They're both illegal.”
“It's okay, I've got permits for them.”
She was talking like these were the most normal things in the world. This wasn't the Isabella I knew “You don't like guns, what's going on Isabella?”
She started to load the pistol “Sakuya.”
“Sakuya?”
“Yeap.”
“What about him, here let me.” She was struggling to load the magazine.
She handed me the gun, it felt so light and the polymer frame odd “The Imperium will be sending people after him.”
“So you thought you'd learn to shoot just in case?”
“Pretty much. I've been practising on my own a bit and Ariaryn's said he'll help too.”
“You're mad Isabella, an Imperial agent would eat you for breakfast.” She grinned at that. I finished loading “Okay lets she how good you are to start with.” I handed her the pistol. She stepped up to the line, took aim and fired six times. I was glad I was standing behind her. She managed to hit a target, just not the one she was aiming at. I dreaded thinking of the havoc she'd wreak with a <<snub machine carbine>>.

========

Afira had 'warned' Ariaryn. She'd used words such as menace and lethal, so he thought himself ready. He'd decided to start with the longarm, much easier to learn the basics on. He'd carefully shown her how to load, the four settings of the selector. He'd paid special attention to that, lowest safe, next single shot, then burst and finally cyclic fire. Her time as a naval reservist seemed to given her an understanding of basic range safety at least. It was time to see what she could do. “Okay Isabella, lets try it. Start with single shot. So push the selector up one notch” He saw her thumb move, a bit clumsy but he was confident. He'd run over it four times with her. “Now take careful aim. Slowly, no need to rush. Breath, now gently squeeze the trigger while exhaling.” He watched closely as she slowly moved her finger.
The <<snub machine carbine>> spat 15mm HEAP shells at 750 rounds per minute in all directions. He instinctively threw himself on the ground. She must have kept her finger on the trigger for several seconds. He looked up and waited for the dust to settle. She was smiling “Well at least I hit the target.”
He was not amused “You hit all the targets, and the bank and the trees and pretty much everything.” He wasn't sure how she'd managed to get the <<squirrel analog>>(), probably in one of the trees he thought.
 
A person can be making reasonable shots for suppression fire after only a few hours of training. Basic target shooting can be learned in under an hour. People can be effective in paintball courses after a handful of hours if possessed of good aptitude (high dex)...

... or still inept after dozens, if they lack the aptitude (low Dex).

Skillful target shooting to even high school levels is hundreds of hours of practice... or a couple dozen hours and some natural talent. (I had 200+ hours of range time through high school - I was competition capable after about 25 -- hitting a 2cm diameter target 10/10 at 25m -- and competitive after about 150 -- hitting a 1mm dot at 25m 8+/10.)

Combat shooting is a different set of additional skills - 10-30 hours to convert target training to elementary effective combat skills (fire for effect, fire at moving target, fire on the move, combat aim, quick acquire target), but actual skill (CT level 1) probably requires at least a hundred additional hours.

It also helps to spread out the hours a bit. Educational studies show skills are best learned by many shorter sessions than a few long ones, with optimal practice times lengthening with increasing skill.

Basic Training includes a couple hundred hours of shooting over 8 weeks... some of which is versus pop-targets for beginning combat skills, and some is simulated combat.

----
She should be able to fire reasonably on range in a jump's worth of practices in the hold.

Acquiring qualification should be at least 25 hours of effective practice... and maybe as much as 10x that.
 
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Thank you, so if I work on the assumption that with a reasonable natural aptitude (a doctor with Dex A) about two weeks of regular training and practice to skill-0 with skill-1 taking 3 to 4 months.
 
Thank you, so if I work on the assumption that with a reasonable natural aptitude (a doctor with Dex A) about two weeks of regular training and practice to skill-0 with skill-1 taking 3 to 4 months.

What kind of shooting and what kind of weapon(s) are we talking about?

As very wisely pointed by Aramis target shooting and combat shooting are two things. Hunters that regularly hit the paper target will tell you that acquiring partly hidden target and effectively shooting while not in "range perfect" position make hunting a lot more difficult than some believe. When the hunted shoot back, forcing you to try shooting while remaining covered, things gets dicey... and adrenalin does not help remaining steady. There is some good sense to referees that do not allow gun skill 2 (for small arm) unless your PC had combat experience.

Revolver, pump action, bolt action and lever action almost never jam. Semi-auto and auto often jam. Learning to safely clear the various jam will take some extra time (albeit little ). Again, the adrenalin factor plays here. A PC that shot a .22 bolt action to skill 0 could not grab a sub machine gun and claim skill 0.

Of course, the learning curve allows you to get skill 0 with a specific weapon in a single half day session once you get your first skill 0 (safe handling, basic position, breathing, using sight, safety levers-slide release-trigger handling and recoil control) with a handgun and a long arm. Weapon maintenance is to be taken as part of skill 0 and Skill 0 extend to any similar wpn.

I will agree that Skill 0 is about what your says. Skill one (adventure type skill) would require not only time but also various set-up as in a Practical Shooting Competition training run. A true adventure type Skill 0 should include additional time with various weapons.


Selandia
 
Thank you, so if I work on the assumption that with a reasonable natural aptitude (a doctor with Dex A) about two weeks of regular training and practice to skill-0 with skill-1 taking 3 to 4 months.

If you know guns, putting a 1000 rounds downrange will familiarize someone with a weapon. If someone not knowing anything about firearms, I'd have them make a roll under their Int just to get to level 0 or 1.
 
Shooting at stationary targets at a set distance might not even qualify as a Traveller skill. Traveller weapon skills are COMBAT skills. An experienced hunter could have some experience with moving targets, variations in lighting, distance, and cover.

Is there a proper combat training environment available? Multiple friend and foe targets moving through cover. Realistic sounds. Future holographic computerized simulation technology with a suit worn to mimic (#1) being hit.

Is their a proper instructor? Just because you know what to do doesn't mean you know how to help someone else learn. An individual typically will teach based on their own perspective but an instructor knows that all people are not the same and understand multiple instruction techniques.

#1 - Something more than just a flashing light when hit. Currently there are belts that give some tactile feedback. Future tech could possibly inject a paralyzing agent to disable a hit limb.

One question is do you want your story to be Traveller = thousands of years into the future and still using the same weapons, and training?
 
Being able to hit what you are shooting at, probably helps a bit. ;)

Yep, definitely.

All training starts with target shooting.

And skill is generally maintained on the target range.


There is something to be said for the idea that Traveller weapon skills are combat level skills though. That is the baseline to take and apply mods to.

Hunting should get a bonus to the weapon skill (+1? More?) for the easier situation. Presuming you first make your Hunting skill check ;)

Target shooting would be an even higher bonus.

Note the -5 for unskilled in CT. That's the person who usually can't hit what they're trying to... in combat. Hunting they will often miss as well. On the range with minimal instruction they will probably hit the target, some of the time.

Level 0 is enough for full familiarity and they won't be a hazard to friendly forces and will be a valid threat to the enemy in combat. They have a good chance of hitting what they aim at. They are a decent hunter, able to always hit what they aim at in reasonable circumstances. And they can always hit the targets on the range, even if not always in the 10 ring or well grouped.

Level 1 plus is added competency and muscle memory.
 
For a pistol, most engagements occur at about 2m (7ft), so competency with the mechanism of the weapon is far more important than accuracy, initially.

A small calibre version of the weapon to be learned is a great idea. Simulators, and dry firing are an important part of the mix, especially when range time is limited.

The Army runs Basic Rifle Marksmanship with less than 200 rounds per Soldier. The Army only gives a novice with a pistol 59 rounds. That provides a basic familiarity, enough to give the shooter a better chance with a gun than without. There is a great deal of territory between this and real proficiency, being in the top few percentiles of qualified shooters. My Godfather, who was near retirement with U.S. Army Special Forces at the time, gave me some advice when I asked him for pointers on learning to get to be a good shot with my first handgun:"Put about 2 or 3 thousand rounds through that little pistol of yours before you worry about hitting anything." I did, and it put me in good stead.

Full auto fire is is a more advanced skill to master; that said, a very basic proficiency with an automatic weapon can produce some great suppressive fire.
 
Here are some generalized comments from years of observation of people at ranges.

There are some there that know what they're doing. Many however are clueless with a capital CLUELESS.

I have seen ammunition inserted into clips wrong. Yes, you can put 9mm rounds in backwards in most standard semi auto clips.... Same goes for the M 16... Seen that too.

Small women often have difficulties with larger rifles and pistols simply on the basis of size. They have difficulties with a large grip versus small hand size, the lenght of the weapon etc.

Few beginners know how to breath correctly while firing. These tend to produce very large groups. Aiming, same thing. They do a poor job of it.

I've seen lots of people shoot up the wrong target. This is particularly annoying when you are on a range qualifying and its your target that got shot up by the moron next to you.

Beginners tend to finger the trigger immediately. With holsters this can lead to accidents. They also don't make proper finger placement on it and their grip on the weapon is usually not correct either. For example, they grip the forestock on a rifle rather than just support the piece using their grip / stock hand to control it.

Reloading under pressure? Ain't happening with someone that is not practiced. The beginner drops clips, inserts it wrong, incompletely, and generally cannot operate the weapon efficently to get it to firing position. Even something like combat loading a pump shotgun (throwing a round in the chamber from loose) takes presence of mind to ensure it is the right way round when it goes in.....

For example, with a semi-auto pistol they will take alot more time getting a fresh clip, inserting it, and then releasing the slide foward. They tend to be sloppy and not keep the weapon pointed down range too.

Beginners are also much more prone not to get a sight picture in a rushed situation. Someone with moderate practice can draw from holster, get on target and put 3 rounds in it in a good group at 7 to 10 yards in under 2 seconds. A beginner might get off the three rounds but they will be all over the place.

Of course, forget a beginner knowing anything tactical. They won't know proper positions to get a steady aim and control recoil, they won't know how to use supports or fire from cover properly.

Jams? Forget a beginner. With a semi-auto pistol you turn it upside down and work the slide. Gravity will do the rest 98% of the time.

Unfamiliarity with the weapon doesn't help either.....
 
Some real good stuff here. I have been shooting competitively since I was Ten and Hunting since I was Twelve. The key is good instruction then you practice, practice, practice some more. After that you practice.
 
One of my favorite indicators that a person is 'unfamilar' with a weapon, particularly an auto pistol is when they shoot all the rounds and the slide will lock in the open (back) position. They struggle and try to figure out what is broken on the pistol. ;)

(Its one of the reasons that I believe that teaching someone to shoot a revoler first is better, limited round and you have to pull the trigger each time.)

Nothing is more frightening than an individual who thinks they know weapons, teaching someone else who knows nothing about weapons. Specially when the weapons are loaded.

And if you think that is bad, wait until you try to teach people about grenades.

Dave Chase
 
Here's 2Cr from someone who knows very little, (but not zero) about guns.

Firstly, I'm sure you all have an anecdote about some total incompetent who puts the bullets in backwards and can't hit a barn door at five paces, but these are not adventurers. They're not even trainee adventurers. Adventurers have the potential to be great. Even the baseline for adventurers is going to be better than this. Adventurers will have a fundamental hand-eye co-ordination.

I've done some plinking with borrowed air rifles and pistols, and it's my considered opinion that anyone who is destined to be an adventurer will be able to hit a man-size static target at the weapon's effective range before s/he's emptied a single clip. NPCs can be as incompetent as you like, of course.

(I've also fired a few rounds from a shotgun, before the gun-nuts start telling me it's all about recoil).

Now I can imagine firing a fully automatic weapon can be a bit of a handful, but even then, anyone who is destined to be a gun-handler should have the weapon reasonably controlled within a couple of clips.

Firing a bow, OTOH, is a whole different ball-game, IMO, but even then a would-be adventurer wouldn't be so abysmal as to hit his neighbour's target on his first outing.

So I think the big question here is - are we talking adventurers or NPCs?

From a would-be adventurer, somewhere between Level 0 and Level FA. :)
 
Here's 2Cr from someone who knows very little, (but not zero) about guns.

Firstly, I'm sure you all have an anecdote about some total incompetent who puts the bullets in backwards and can't hit a barn door at five paces, but these are not adventurers. They're not even trainee adventurers. Adventurers have the potential to be great. Even the baseline for adventurers is going to be better than this. Adventurers will have a fundamental hand-eye co-ordination.

Firstly thank you all, the input has been incredibly useful :)

But this is a very valid point, with one important proviso. Heroes can be incompetent. But it's perpetual. Taking the Isabella character from my OP. It may be that she's a heroic adventurer and with a little training will pick up the skill quickly.


However she may still be a hero, but forever unable to hit the broadside of a barn no matter how much effort the other party members put in (used as a series of comic relief scenes as the increasingly frustrated party attempts to overcome her fundamental perpetual incompetence with a firearm). In this case, her heroic nature may come through as she saves the day by bluffing the Imperial agent(s) into surrender.

ForEx

Agent Vu stared into Isabella's eyes "I'd really put it down if I were you Agent, I completely lethal with this."
Vu studied her slight frame carefully. The voice was sweet and innocent, but her hand unwavering and eyes showed an utter determination. He took a breath and slowly lowered his gun.
Ariaryn stood,walked to the defeated agent and took his revolver. He turned to Isabella "You can put it down now, very very gently please."
There was a note in Ariaryn voice that indicated to Vu that all was not as it seemed "She said she was lethal with that?"
Ariaryn chuckled "Oh she is, you never know where the bullet's going to end up."
 
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Here's 2Cr from someone who knows very little, (but not zero) about guns.

Firstly, I'm sure you all have an anecdote about some total incompetent who puts the bullets in backwards and can't hit a barn door at five paces, but these are not adventurers. They're not even trainee adventurers. Adventurers have the potential to be great. Even the baseline for adventurers is going to be better than this. Adventurers will have a fundamental hand-eye co-ordination.

I've done some plinking with borrowed air rifles and pistols, and it's my considered opinion that anyone who is destined to be an adventurer will be able to hit a man-size static target at the weapon's effective range before s/he's emptied a single clip. NPCs can be as incompetent as you like, of course.

(I've also fired a few rounds from a shotgun, before the gun-nuts start telling me it's all about recoil).

Now I can imagine firing a fully automatic weapon can be a bit of a handful, but even then, anyone who is destined to be a gun-handler should have the weapon reasonably controlled within a couple of clips.

Firing a bow, OTOH, is a whole different ball-game, IMO, but even then a would-be adventurer wouldn't be so abysmal as to hit his neighbour's target on his first outing.

So I think the big question here is - are we talking adventurers or NPCs?

From a would-be adventurer, somewhere between Level 0 and Level FA. :)

Either I would think. What says an adventurer has to be proficient with a weapon? Someone might be totally incompetent in a party with weapons but useful in other ways. You might have a "MacGiver" engineer in the party for example. Can disassemble and reassemble a gun in pitch blackness but can't hit a planet with one firing it. A medic or doctor might have an aversion to using a weapon based on their professional creed. There's two examples of possible party members that are useless with weapons but useful in other ways.
 
Of course an adventurer can be competent in areas other than weaponry and may never be able to shoot, but this from the OP:
So how long do people think it should take to get her 'up to speed?'
led me to believe that the intention was that she would become proficient in time - ie she was a latent shootist - as such she would probably not be completely incompetent even at the start, and would learn quickly.
 
I have seen, while training officers to combat shoot for my agency, unbelievable incompetency corrected and improved to remarkable ability in two weeks of intensive training. And some of those people would through their guns downrange while drawing, drop mags while firing right out of the mag well, and do other incredible things.

I think anyone who needs to get up to speed (whatever that speed is) with a firearm, and has the slightest modicum of natural ability, can do it in a shorter period of time than the rules say. It just means you need a good teacher and will do the work.

Maybe the determining factor should be more the level of Teaching skill the trainer has combined with the "natural ability" as represented by the positive DM for the weapon form the PC's Dex? If the pC already has that positive Dm then call her a natural shot and go from there depending on the trainer's skill level. If she doesn't have that positive DM then no, she's not a natural (or latent) and it will be a tougher climb.
 
Of course an adventurer can be competent in areas other than weaponry and may never be able to shoot, but this from the OP:

led me to believe that the intention was that she would become proficient in time - ie she was a latent shootist - as such she would probably not be completely incompetent even at the start, and would learn quickly.

LOL yes that was my intention at the time, my apologies (and will probably stick with that eventually). But you did raise a *very* interesting point I hadn't considered, which lead me to think about other paths I could take. May actually end up trying to incorporate both. :rofl::D
 
One of the players in my current campaign has been a steady player for me for years. However, she has some very bad luck (or rather strange luck) with dice.

I was playing a Traveller scenario, one I'd written years previously. They were exploring a ship that seemed to have nobody on board, but of course there were pirates also exploring this ship. The group disabled one of the pirates and took his high-powered laser rifle (much more powerful than normal).

So when the group was next attacked, Kathy just shot two shots with the rifle. Her first shot killed and demoralized the attackers who were smart in running away. The seond shot was a critical failure. The power pack released all of its power into the laser which blew up, putting her out of the fight and injuring the rest of the players. And she manages this fairly consitantly with lasers, though a bit less spectacularly. And it doesn't seem to be linked to skill level. :(

And now she's the captain of the player's ship. I'm going to recommend that she finds a weapon than not be able to damage the ship or the crew. Perhaps a very light auto-pistol.
 
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