Ablat armor degradation in CT

[Major Matt Mason]

I'm looking for another combat-related detail, and perhaps the answer is in Snapshot again!

Ablat armor is the cheap alternative to reflec. "Continued fire against ablat degrades its effectiveness" (LBB1, 41; the same line is used in MT [IE, 74]).

However, searching through the LBBs (and MT, as well), I can't find any hint of how to track or implement this degradation. I suspect it is a certain value of laser hits or something, or maybe just some kind of "critical hit" causes catastrophic failure.

In any event, I look forward to any pointers. Thanks for reading!

 

[far-trader]

Yep, it's in Snapshot

Ablat: Ablat is a cheap alternative to reflec and it also confers some protection against other forms of attack. When laser fire hits this armor, it ablates (vaporizes), carrying away the energy of the attack. Each time a person wearing ablat is hit by laser fire, the throw to hit the individual is decreased by 1.

 

[Icosahedron]

It's in LBB1 (1977) p42 as a footnote to the Weapons Matrix table. (May be on a different page in later editions).

"Each time that laser fire hits ablat armor, it decreases the ablat's DM by 1."

 

[Major Matt Mason]

Thanks for the answers, far-trader and Icosahedron!

Now I'll have to ponder how many hits it takes to get to the center of a Tootsiepop . . . er, to wipe out ablat.

That LBB1 (1977) had this important info as a footnote to the Weapons Matrix table is news to me, since such a footnote is not present in LBB1 (1981), at the Weapons Matrix (p. 46) or anywhere else I could find.

 

[sabredog]

You find lots of little things missing like that in CT - like the pulse laser rules for example: they are less effective at hitting but do more damage when they do. Yet the rules for how much more are difficult and cunning beasts when trying to hunt them down.

I suspect the ablat degradation rule was left out for convenience since it's only mentioned in Snapshot, but not in Striker or Azhanti High Lightning. Once the combat system became two camps of either the CT original vs the Striker/AHL system it either got lost or was figured to be minor booking that wasn't important enough to slow down the game. After a while you imagine the guy getting zapped starts looking like a tattered, dusty rug getting beat on with all those puffs of reflective dust coming off and floating around him.

So you have to start wondering how much of the stuff "puffs off" when hit, what does ablat even look like, and how well does it hold up to slugthrowers over time?

Personally I have yet to ever encounter a player-character who uses it unless forced to, then I apply the 1 point per hit drop (same with Striker/AHL, except then it's 1 armor point lost per hit), but only for lasers. For slugthrowers I apply no penalty.

 

[Supplement Four]

You find lots of little things missing like that in CT - like the pulse laser rules for example: they are less effective at hitting but do more damage when they do. Yet the rules for how much more are difficult and cunning beasts when trying to hunt them down.

They're present in Starter Traveller--the pulse laser rule. Then, gone again in The Traveller Book. Not in Book 2, either, I don't think.

Since Starter came after Book 2, it's like they played around with the idea, then decided against it with TTB.

Personally, I like the rule. I use it.

 

[aramis]

I believe ST postdates TTB.

 

[Icosahedron]

Thanks for the answers, far-trader and Icosahedron!

Now I'll have to ponder how many hits it takes to get to the center of a Tootsiepop . . . er, to wipe out ablat.

That LBB1 (1977) had this important info as a footnote to the Weapons Matrix table is news to me, since such a footnote is not present in LBB1 (1981), at the Weapons Matrix (p. 46) or anywhere else I could find.

It's not a matter of getting to the centre. The initial DM of Ablat is -7, each hit just makes it easier to hit next time. You don't need to shoot it entirely off someone's back to render it effectively useless: firing a laser, you'll probably kill the wearer long before you've hit him 7 times.

 

[Major Matt Mason]

One . . . two . . . three <crunch>. The answer is "three."

It's not a matter of getting to the centre. The initial DM of Ablat is -7, each hit just makes it easier to hit next time. You don't need to shoot it entirely off someone's back to render it effectively useless: firing a laser, you'll probably kill the wearer long before you've hit him 7 times.

Right. Thanks for doing the look up.

Laser Rifle vs. Ablat (To Hit rolls): 19+, 13+, 13+, 13+, 14+

That's not very workable--the target has effective immunity unless the shooter has Laser Rifle-4 (or technically at least Laser Rifle-2).

Try again, with a scope this time (giving +4 at L and VL range).

Laser Rifle w/ Scope vs. Ablat (To Hit rolls): 19+, 13+, 13+, 9+, 10+

Now that's more like it! That one hit will deliver 5D damage, which of course is normally enough to take a person out of the fight. But if we factor in the relative difficulty of the To Hit roll, it averages only 5 points at Long range and 3 points at Very Long range, both quite survivable, even when delivered in a First Blood lump.

The same Scoped Laser Rifle vs. Reflec delivers 3 points and 1 point at those same ranges. So Ablat seems to live up to its reputation as being fairly good (at first).

Since the whole premise of Ablat is successive hits, please bear with me and this questionable form of analysis.

So our hero Gruff took a 3 point hit from a laser sniper at 12 range bands.

Gruff charges forward, two bands at a time. If he can get close enough, he might have immunity from laser attack (if the armor holds out). A sort of "Charge of the Light Brigade," with lasers instead of cannons.

The 1-hit Ablat is now 18+, 12+, 12+, 8+, 9+
This translates a hit into 7 pts (L) and 5 pts (VL), which happens to be the same as Combat Armor at these ranges.

Let's say the sniper misses.

Next the sniper hits Gruff at 8 range bands. Will Gruff still be standing after 7 pts, distributed as 3 pts and 4 pts? Probably. For the sake of this example, we'll say yes.

The 2-hit Ablat is now 17+, 11+, 11+, 7+, 8+
This translates into 10 pts (L) and 7 pts (VL).
The bad news is that closer range immunity has been eroded.

So with three hits, the character has taken an average of 3+7+10 = 20 points, which is enough to take down an average person. The Ablat still offers near immunity against laser at pistol range--if only Gruff can get that close--and total immunity at range C.

OTOH, Ablat has performed rather well. In fact, it seems designed for such anti-sniper attacks (where the response is to move out of range). Which raises the question of why it isn't actually used by PCs more often (or is that "at all")? Is the reason rational or non-rational?

Putting it another way: how many 5D hits could a character in Reflec take? That first 5D is a pretty big smack, averaging about 18 points--could he survive two more?

Even my questionable analysis puts Reflec at only a bit better than Ablat--sure, the silvery one could take many 1 pt hits at VL range, but at Long range he's in the same situation as Ablat at VL range. So again, in gross generalities, it seems like Reflec could take about 7 hits (7 * 3 = 21) to Ablat's 3 hits.

But as we are saying, the sense that Reflec is "twice as good" might be illusory, since the meat inside is getting cooked at about the same rate.

 

[sabredog]

OTOH, Ablat has performed rather well. In fact, it seems designed for such anti-sniper attacks (where the response is to move out of range). Which raises the question of why it isn't actually used by PCs more often (or is that "at all")? Is the reason rational or non-rational?

As far as CT combat goes IMTU (note the caveat) I use the same reasoning that tbeard1999 did when he analyzed the combat modifiers and just made Reflec a straight -9DM against lasers only (although my original DM was only -7 but its -9 now after reading his take on it). Worn under Cloth makes it Cloth + the -9DM against lasers, and Cloth only vs. everything else. I think this is more accurate and fits with the rules description of the armor.

So as an example of this way of treating Reflec / Ablat / Cloth I come up with the following numbers:

Against a Laser Rifle: C S M L V

Cloth+Reflec 19+ 13+ 13+ 13+ 14+
Ablat 19+ 13+ 13+ 13+ 14+

No difference at least for the first shot, but after that the Ablat starts degrading. But the real reason players (in my experience) seem to prefer Reflec over Ablat is when combined with Cloth you also get these numbers against a typical slugthrower:

Against 9mm SMG: C S M L V
Cloth+Reflec 15+ 8+ 8+ 17+ 20+
Ablat 10+ 3+ 3+ 12+ 15+

Here you see that Ablat might be a “catch-all” in some ways but it really doesn’t answer for slugthrowers too well. Better than Reflec does, even if you use the original DM’s instead of just assuming a straight -9 against lasers.

The other reason Reflec is to be preferred is that you can wear it under regular clothing, too, so even if you are somewhere that open wearing of bulkier armor like Cloth or Ablat might be prohibited you can at least wear something that could protect you from lasers.

Cloth Armor=5
Ablat Armor=1 (6 lasers)
Reflec Armor=(10) lasers only

So with Striker values against slugthrowers Cloth has the advantage, and Cloth + Reflec has the definite advantage against laser rifles. At TL they have a penetration of (at effective range) 9, and at TL-13 the PEN is 20.

So for the TL-13 Laser Rifle just Reflec alone knocks 15 off that, then the Cloth knocks off 5 more to make the penetration roll of 2D6+5. It’s still more likely than not that the TL-13 Laser Rifle will at least cause a Serious Wound, if not kill you outright, but the chances are better of surviving than with Ablat. And definitely better odds against laser pistols and carbines or the TL-9 versions.

Still and all, the odds are higher you’ll survive longer wearing the Cloth+Reflec combo in Striker or AHL. Anyway, this is how it has always worked out for me and why Ablat rarely gets used by players at least.

 

[sabredog]

They're present in Starter Traveller--the pulse laser rule. Then, gone again in The Traveller Book. Not in Book 2, either, I don't think.

Since Starter came after Book 2, it's like they played around with the idea, then decided against it with TTB.

Personally, I like the rule. I use it.

Yeah, it's only mentioned in Book 2 that pulse lasers "are more effective at doing damage" than beam - but nothing to indicate what that might mean. My house rule house-ruling being one of my joys in CT and the bane of my players till they get hit hard enough by the cluebat) is that a pulse laser does 2 hits to the beam laser's 1. But it's still one roll on the location table. So a pulse laser will not only do more damage to the component it hits, but it also helps get through armor, especially since I have any given mount (turret, what have you) roll once to hit and roll once on the location table with all the damage from the non-missile weapons combined and applied to the single location. Less the armor of course.

 

[Major Matt Mason]

the Ablat Soldier of LBB1

Having done the recent analysis of Ablat, I now have a new sense of its implied use in the context of LBB1.

Granted that LBB1, 2, and 3, the basic books, are in effect a "game kit" game--the tools to make whatever game you want. Like OD&D that way. Mercenary then expands it into larger scale combat in the way that it does, and the Official Traveller Universe makes =that= game out of it (or for it).

But before Mercenary, there's a big toy box of melee weapons, pole arms, rifles, etc., and lasers. Also reflec and ablat. So it now seems to me that the "high tech" soldier implied by LBB1 has a laser rifle and wears reflec. He is complimented by a frontline soldier, a sort of antepilani, who uses an autorifle or submachine gun and wears ablat. This combination would seem to be effective against high tech laser soldiers (where the ablat projectile weapons would tear through reflec) and low tech non-gunpowder warriors (where projectiles and lasers would cut them down before they could close to melee range), but not very well against middle tech gunpowder soldiers.

In this light, the ablat isn't simply a cheaper alternative to reflec, it has a specific role wherein it is "good enough" against lasers and also offers "good enough" protection against a low level of melee weaponry which they might encounter as the frontline.

Put another way: the guys at GDW were all wargamers. Just look at the tech levels! So in LBB1 they gave representative weapons from different eras, including a foray into future eras involving lasers and the armor that could defend against them. This isn't the scale of combat found in Mercenary, but instead the scale found in "The Magnificent Seven" or any number of action movies. And I detect a certain pattern of ancient warfare's pilani and antepilani in this futuristic reflec and ablat thing.

 

[far-trader]

But...

...you can wear Reflec under clothing (specifically, and presumably any other armor)* and gain the benefits of both. So better laser protection with Reflec, plus better slug weapon and melee weapon protection with Cloth.

Though I think I like your reasoning better Major Matt Mason

* I know we always did it that way, but it might have been a house rule, my quick look only sees "under other clothing" in LBB1 but istr "under armor" being stated somewhere.

 

[sabredog]

But...

...you can wear Reflec under clothing (specifically, and presumably any other armor)* and gain the benefits of both. So better laser protection with Reflec, plus better slug weapon and melee weapon protection with Cloth.

Though I think I like your reasoning better Major Matt Mason

* I know we always did it that way, but it might have been a house rule, my quick look only sees "under other clothing" in LBB1 but istr "under armor" being stated somewhere.

I always restricted the wearing under other armor to "flexible armor", specifically Cloth, Mesh, and Jack.

But Reflec itself is also kind of odd in a universe where slughthrowers are prevalent to the point that in the OTU the Emperor was assassinated by a guy with a revolver. I see it as more of a supplementary armor for those who can afford it considering that combat armor is strictly military. If you can't afford reflec and Cloth, then go for Ablat.

But then again, if you look at the numbers I showed in my above post it also makes a big difference in whether or not you use the classic CT combat system or Striker/AHL. But still, IMHO I'd take Reflec/Cloth over Ablat. The cost difference isn't that much, but the protection against slugthorwers is better with the combo.

 

[Major Matt Mason]

But...

...you can wear Reflec under clothing (specifically, and presumably any other armor)* and gain the benefits of both. So better laser protection with Reflec, plus better slug weapon and melee weapon protection with Cloth.

It's true what you say, far-trader. I'm just looking into the details that made ablat into the "unwanted stepchild" of the CT armory . . .

And in fact, that little side-rule you mention might be the lion's share of "what ruined it for ablat." Since, obviously, if there were no "wear reflec with anything" clause, it wouldn't be an issue at all!

Because, as you say, if you can mix and match at will, why would anybody =ever= pair reflec with jack?! Or even mesh, for that matter? (Of course, trying to answer this question is what led me to hypothesize an antepilani type of warrior.)

So maybe =that= was the little rule, perhaps added as an afterthought, that relegated ablat to the ash heap.

But that particular rule itself is not free of controversy, either! It causes all sorts of trouble on its own, as enumerated by others around here--not the least of which being that 5D damage of burn-through (in a cloth-over-reflec sandwich) by rights should probably destroy cloth armor even faster than ablat is destroyed, right?

If the mix-and-match rule was removed, how very different everything would become!

 

[far-trader]

...If the mix-and-match rule was removed, how very different everything would become!

Quite. And it's your idea that has me considering exactly that

Even though, like sabredog, I only allowed it with flexible armors, it's still too much for Ablat to make much sense.

fwiw I have paired Reflec with Jack It was partly a style and fashion choice for a Noble, who was not so much worried about slug throwers in the crowd he hung with but those nasty dirty 3-shot battery powered laser pistols that were all the rage...

 

[Major Matt Mason]

Some elements of CT have always leaped out to me as being from very specific works of science fiction. For instance, the black globe generator seemed straight from the final battle of THE FOREVER WAR, which also provides the wonderful images of soldiers wearing vacc suits, armed with swords. In a similar way, the mix-and-match detail of reflec felt like it came directly from a Larry Niven story--was it "The Hole Man"?--in which it was an important plot point that the guy had laser-proof armor underneath his normal civilian clothing.

Back to the pilani/antepilani force using reflec/ablat. In pondering over such an unusual arrangement (high tech and low tech, but not middle tech), I stumbled upon an intriguing possibility: this type of force could very well be an expeditionary force used to conquer low tech worlds as well as prevent other high tech interstellar governments from doing the same. Thus, in overly simplistic terms of the day when CT appeared, the "landing parties" from Federation or Klingon Empire starships, come to either blow up your stone age utopia or to squabble over which side your world is going to be a part of.

 

[DonM]

Yeah, it's only mentioned in Book 2 that pulse lasers "are more effective at doing damage" than beam - but nothing to indicate what that might mean. My house rule house-ruling being one of my joys in CT and the bane of my players till they get hit hard enough by the cluebat) is that a pulse laser does 2 hits to the beam laser's 1. But it's still one roll on the location table. So a pulse laser will not only do more damage to the component it hits, but it also helps get through armor, especially since I have any given mount (turret, what have you) roll once to hit and roll once on the location table with all the damage from the non-missile weapons combined and applied to the single location. Less the armor of course.

I believe that ALL of these are in the Consolidated CT Errata...

 

[Traveller]

Here's a question, and I do hope the thread isn't too old for the necromancy.

Does a PGMP or FGMP affect ablat like a laser does?

 

[HiverLord]

Does a PGMP or FGMP affect ablat like a laser does?

From my understanding (and I could be way off base here), these two weapons systems are much too powerful to be affected by ablat armor; they'd just blast right through them. (I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but they are significant - one shot kills against most any unarmored/lightly-armored opponent).

OOPS: just re-read the question; let's try that again and answer the question you asked, not the one I read...
These two weapons systems are so strong that the armor shouldn't ablat, they'd just have a big gaping hole blasted in them, as well as whoever was wearing it.