Adventure: Hitler Must Die!

[Spinward Scout]

Hmmmm... I-beam from orbit... Why not just bring in a asteroid from the belt and drop it on them. You could drop about 10 or 20 of them, and it'll look like a natural disaster. A big enough rock and the bunker will just be non-existant.

But, get this - the Merc unit drops a nuke and destroys Hitler - THEN pretending to be General Eisenhour or McArthur, contacts Hirohito in Japan and says: surrender or Tokyo is next...

I wonder how long it would take for them to contact Washington to surrender.

hehehe

 

[Space Cadet]

The toughest part of the Merc's job is finding Hitler. If they drop a weapon of Mass Destruction on Hitler's bunker only to find out that Hitler wasn't there at the time, the history books will do them no good, as the Nazis know there is something out there in space that is attacking them. The Mercs have 3 spaceships all together. Perhaps a lower key approach might be best. In other words the Mercs land somewhere that they won't be noticed and then they proceed on foot to where they think they'll find Hitler. Battledress has camouflage, so they can make themselves hard to see. I tend to think orbital bombardiment isn't the best way to get Hitler, what the PCs need the most is good intel. If they assassinate Hitler in a low key way, then the course of events will follow a more predictable path than if the PCs make it clear to the whole world that their assaults come from space.

 

[Chaos]

Better idea... contact the group forming around Count Stauffenberg about that time, and, instead of (as historically) him depositing a bomb in the Führer´s briefing room (which Hitler survived pretty much unscathed) have him deposit a radio beacon or its high-tech equivalent to direct pinpoint ortillery bombardement.

 

[atpollard]

Just send in the Zho in the 1920's to heal the mentally ill son of an Austrian painter.

 

[kafka47]

I rather like the idea of the time travelling Zhos, imagine them falling into the wrong hands or rather the right hands...the Allies who want to use them for their technology. A mad disparate escape across Europe, the only thing, I would change is that they would arrive much earlier and say be responsible for the Tunguska event. Only, to have to make their pact with the devil, to assist the Germans in developing the V4 Rockets, so that they can return to their orbiting starship.

 

[vegascat]

All the Zhos would have needed to do was show up in the late 30s with anything that could be interpreted as a powerful artifact that would give the Nazis power to win. Just tell Hitler the fancy metal hat was the helm of Alexander the Great and it gave him the god given power to take over his known world and then sit back and fix his mind for him.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
And there we are back at the "What does a Merc Unit own" problem. Mainly wether or not they have Battledress/Combat armor. My stance on this has always been: Only Huscarls / semi-Huscarl units have them, the rest uses Combat Environment Suit at best.

And my stance is that Huscarles are not Mercenaries. (It is forbidden under the Imperial Laws of War.) While they may occasionally act as such, and the Imperium might turn a blind eye, Nobles and their household troops are not supposed to interfere in local politics, which Mercenaries do on a regular basis. Further given the normal hostile operating environment of a Mercenary Unit, Combat Environment Suits are inadequate for 60+% of Mercenary environments. (Unless we are dealing with a specialized Mercenary Unit that fights strictly from multi-millions of Credits worth of Grav vehicles on nice Earth Like worlds.)

As for the Stug44 it uses 7.92x33 similar in power to the 7.62Block used in the AK47 (that in turn borrows heavily from the Stug) and compares quite nicely with 5.56N in muzzle energy. So if the Mattel Toy is an assault rifle, the Stug sure is.

Actually the 7.62x39 of the AK-47/AKM is a very poor penetrator. (The 5.56x45 used by NATO is quite a bit newer and actually is a decent penetrator.)

The 7.92x57 with the standard AP ammo comming in from the MG42s will have a nice effect also.

Decent weapon. Not very safe to use inside a bunker complex. (Ricochets are a bitch.) Yet it fails to address the simple fact that you have to see the target.

As for Kinetic strikes: Have fun with those. Depending on the exact bunker layout they may be as tough as the U-Boat Bunkers (I'd have to dig deeper into the exact bunker layout for that) and those took quite a beating.

But a Kinetic strike is a bit more powerful than a typical B-17 or Lancaster Raid load. (And is better concentrated and much more accurate.) And I did mean RAID Load. Max payload for a Lancaster was 22000lbs of bombs or 11 tons (The biggest payload of any of the Bombers attacking Germany.). A 1 ton I-Beam dropped from Geosynchronous Orbit hits the ground with the energy about equivalent to 100 tons of TNT. (And remember 11 tons of bombs doesn't equal 11 tons of TNT. So you are looking at an excess of a Lancaster Bomber Squadron per I-Beam. Without even strapping a rocket engine to it. Yes there is a point of diminishing returns but if you strike just outside the door, the effects would likely be exceptionally lethal.

Judging from the Maginot bunkers (That are far more impressiv than you think) finding the diesel exhausts/intakes won't be that easy either. For sound-dampening purposes (Sound-tracking was common pre WWII) the exhausts are actually hidden from overhead view and all.

Yet for all their strength, defenses and fame they held the German Army up less than 48 hours. And while some of the Bunkers were indeed impressive, they were the exception not the rule. Much of the Maginot Line didn't even have adequate overhead cover. Besides I wasn't planning on using Sound to find the exhaust. I was just going to track the exhaust heat. An A-10, which doesn't have anything in terms of sophisticated sensors, could hit that same exhaust with either a Maverick or a Smart Bomb on a blind first pass.

And finally a 37mm AA gun manually filling the air with lead might be a rude suprise for Mr. Assault Cutter. And the Mercs better look out for the airforce if they want to come back otherwise their cutters might die on the ground

Again this assumes they can see the inbounds. Hell they had a difficult time shooting down B-17s with flak in day light. (And they were in one of those Target Rich environments.) As for the Luftwaffe, again, that assumes they can see. And you really think that the same point defense that you claim makes Tac Missiles and Artillery obsolete can't handle a flight of Propeller planes that fly at less than 400 mph? (You can't have it both ways.) Also note that any AAA that opens fire identifies itself for accurate counter fire (Tracers work both ways.) while it is firing blind.

 

[veltyen]

To interject some rationality

Battle of Los Angeles

So the Starmercs came into system about the 23rd of February 1942?

 

[veltyen]

To interject some rationality

Battle of Los Angeles

So the Starmercs came into system about the 23rd of February 1942?

 

[mbrinkhues]

BTL:

Chances are good the MG's are installed in a firing slit/hatch similar to the Westwall standard bunkers. Who cares about ricochets unless he is on the wrong side of the gun

Actually Panzerschreck/Panzerfaust CAN be fired from indoors, you just need a recoil/backflash zone


Actually the Maginot-Line itself was NEVER breached. Guderian went through the Gap between the southern and northern lines. Had the germans waited 2-3 more years, that gap as well as the belgian part would have been closed (the sites where already surveyed). ONE Petit Ouvrage (Minor Bunker) was captured for quite a price. Only to find out that the Grand Ouvrages at both sides simply covered the gap with artillery. Not all Maginot Bunkers are of the same type and quite a few are simpel infantry strongpoints covered by the larger installations. The line is quite complex in design

The Sub-Bunkers where NOT attacked by conventional bombs. They where attacked by TALLBOY and GRAND SLAM bunker busters, special designed armor piercing bombs in the 5-10 to range. Build by the same guy that did build the Dambuster bomb. And the Germans (Röchling Grenade anyone) knew quite a bit on kinetic bunker busters

There is a difference between "Flying Flying Fortresses 5000m high" and a cutter coming down to land. The fully-automatic 20 and 37mm could not even reach the bomber streams, those where attacked by the semi-automatic 8.8, 10.5 and 12.7mm guns. The smaller guns have an RoF of 50-200 rounds/minute per barrel. Against a target coming at you to land that should hurt.

I seriously doubt that an adaptive cammo will be effective in a fast moving craft. On the ground yes but in-flight it is the same as a well-matched cammo paint. Something common.

As for point defence: A missile coming straight and dumb at you is not the same as a maneuvering fighter setting up a deflection shot. And last time I looked the cutters had no PD guns.

On the sound: The key words are HIDDEN FROM OVERHEAD VIEW. Makes it a bit more difficult for IR to find the exhausts. Remember IR WAS USED in WWII by the Germans.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by veltyen:
To interject some rationality

Battle of Los Angeles

So the Starmercs came into system about the 23rd of February 1942?

No, they actually landed near the coast of California shortly after Pearl Harbor. Due to unit composition (Mostly Answerin) the cutter was mistaken for a Japanese sub and since the Mercs made a navigation error they mistook Hollywood for the Wolfsschanze. All well documented here

 

[BetterThanLife]

General Von Leeb, went through the Maginot Line while Guderian went through the Ardennes. The line was breached, though not all of the fortresses within the line were reduced. Of course France fell so fast there was no real need to fully reduce the line.

As for the AAA gunners seeing the target, I am not talking about Cameoline, which will offer some visual protection but should offer absolute protection from TL6 radar. I am talking about conducting the raid at night, under the cover of darkness especially since there are no TL 6 night vision devices. Why would anyone with night vision attack a foe without night vision during daylight? Dump a load of smoke on the target to further exasperate the matter and I don't care how many AAA guns you have, you are unlikely to achieve a single hit like that. (And you are unmasking your guns for counter fire from an enemy that can see you just fine.)

Killing the generators in the bunker or filling it with smoke, will put the defenders in the same situation. No night vision against a force with serious night vision. Combine that with an enemy using weapons that might not even have a muzzle flash. (Gauss Rifles)

While you can fire a Panzerfaust indoors if you have a serious backblast zone cleared. The bunkers at Bertschesgarten didn't have such provisions. (And who would bother with such things, after all you can't get a tank in there.) A Panzerfaust is not a Armbrust or even an RPG-7, the rocket motor fires within the tube. Big backblast areas that are cleared are a contradiction to standard bunker design as it makes the bunker less structurally sound.

Besides there is always the simple expedient of using an agent similar to VX, for which there is no TL-6 defense.

As for defense against kinetic strikes, while they knew their business for objects of the time period, this type of kinetic strike is several orders of magnitude different from anything they could expect to get hit by. Just to give you an example of the difference. In WWII you would send 100+ bombers to take out a bridge. They would have, statistically, less than a 30% chance of actually damaging the bridge beyond repair. Today a single fighter in a blind first pass can destroy a bridge beyond repair with a 90%+ chance of success.

Cutters (and especially assault landing craft) can have point defense. Just mount a Laser on the hardpoint. (And starship missiles don't come in fat dumb and happy.) Also remember that any aircraft launched from any base in the hemisphere, will be within the sensor and weapon range of the Mercenary Cruiser sitting at Geosynchronous Orbit. I don't care how maneuverable a fighter is, (night fighters of the age were decidedly not maneuverable) they can't out maneuver a Laser or a Starship missile. I know there is no such thing as overkill, there is only "Open Fire!" and "I need to reload." But in this case I am willing to state that it is an exception. It is like flying Wright Flyers vs. F-22's.

As for hidden from overhead and hidden from TL8+ Thermographic and other TL12+ sensors is a huge difference and not at all the same thing. (Hell at TL12 I would be surprised that they couldn't detect the current in the lines. After all detecting high voltage AC in unshielded power lines is a TL7 capability.) At TL8 it is possible to figure out what is being typed on a computer or electric typewriter based on the electronic signature of the device, granted at TL8 it isn't practical, but it is possible. The magnetic field put out by an unshielded TL6 generator should be child's play for TL12+ sensors. But it isn't actually required, as using non-thermal smoke would be equally effective in blinding the defenders without hampering the attackers. Use Tranq gas mixed in with the smoke and you don't even have to kill anyone. (Like VX absorbed through the skin.)

 

[Turanil]

I didn't read everything carefully, just skimmed through the thread. So, the idea is to travel back in time and kill Hitler?

-- First idea that springs to my mind is that it isn't a very challenging mission when you compare the technology and information at the PCs' disposal to that of Hitler. Also, why people from the future would want to kill him eludes me. I mean, why not begin a full-scale campaign to kill every tyrant across the ages, destroying history and time-line in the process? No, my idea is that there must be some mysterious and hidden motivation behind this, and as such the PCs won't just fight nazis with lugers and panzers...

-- Second idea: the PCs should be told that they can only intervene during the battle of Berlin (as to not alter history). When the command bunker, where Hitler hid, was finally taken, he wasn't found. Instead, the soviets only found some charred corpses that were supposedly identified as being those of Hitler, his wife, and some other nazi dignitaries. RL: there is almost no doubt that Hitler commited suicide and was ritually burned; yet for a long time there was wild rumors that Hitler survived and escaped, etc. So lets take advantage of this for the story arc.

-- Third idea (to be refined): the PCs are not the only time-travellers involved. Hitler was the subject of some odious experiment that failed miserably (but after much suffering however). -Well, I don't have more precise and intelligent ideas- In any case, the PCs will have to fight technologically advanced enemies that shouldn't be there along nazis with lugers. At the end of the adventure, he can be killed, his body can be taken away, it won't disrupt history as Hitler wasn't found alive, or even with his body identified with certainty.

 

[mbrinkhues]

BTL: There are TL6 night vision systems. I even knew a few guys who used them. UHU for the Panther is the most commonly used. and rather small.

I doubt the Germans would field Nerv Gas without having a defence. And since Tabun/Sarin/Soman are german WWII developments I guess the HAVE protection against it. The Westwall bunkers actually where NCB protected

As for bombs: They did not send hundrets of planes against Tirpitz (attacked by TallBoys) or the U-Boat bunkers either.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
BTL: There are TL6 night vision systems. I even knew a few guys who used them. UHU for the Panther is the most commonly used. and rather small.

I doubt the Germans would field Nerv Gas without having a defence. And since Tabun/Sarin/Soman are german WWII developments I guess the HAVE protection against it. The Westwall bunkers actually where NCB protected

As for bombs: They did not send hundrets of planes against Tirpitz (attacked by TallBoys) or the U-Boat bunkers either.

TL6 night vision is not really worth talking about especially since it wasn't available to individual troopers. (And definitely wouldn't work inside a dark building.) TL6 night vision works by amplifying available light, and wasn't very good at it.) Basically TL6 night vision is the size of a large pair of binoculars, can't see through smoke and is useless in a blacked out bunker. It certainly wasn't designed to be or employed in a AAA role either.

There is a difference between Tech Level 6 Nerve agents and VX. That difference is that TL6 nerve agent is inhaled. So stopped by a Gas mask. VX is absorbed through the pores of the skin, (And wasn't invented until the late 50s.) which requires an entirely different defense. It doesn't do a lot of good to have a building protected against chemical attacks when the enemy is breaching the walls.

US 8th Airforce raids on the Submarine Pens along the coast were conducted by 4-5 bomb groups at a time. A US bomb group consisted of 24 aircraft. So between 96 and 120 would be launched in each of those raids. Later once the targets shifted to the German aircraft industry, oil production, and other targets within Germany the number of planes went way up. But considering that a single 1 ton I-Beam dropped from Geosynchronous orbit, hits with the equivalent of 100 tons of TNT and a B-17 bomb group only carries, 48 tons of bombs. So dropping 2 I-Beams is more powerful than any of the raids against the sub pens. (And quite a bit more concentrated.) All that without even strapping an engine on it. Like I said, a kinetic strike of that nature is several orders of magnitude more powerful than a bomb raid. (Both due to the actual energy released and the concentration of that energy.) It is unlikely that even current bunkers could stand up to that kind of strike. The US military is looking at deploying a system that can do this. (AKA Rods of God, and Thor Shots.) A single rod would break the back of a Battleship, at the very least. In WWII the British conducted several raids against a stationary Battleship but couldn't hit it. Today to sink the Tirpitz would require no more than two fighters or one bomber, or a single maritime patrol craft, like a Bear, a P3 or a Nimrod. (All of which could accurately strike a ship like the Tirpitz from outside the defense envelope of the port.) Which is relevant as one of the big reasons that the raids were ineffective was because they were inaccurate. Now we are talking about an attack which not only can strike with pin point accuracy but also with a force that nobody of that time frame could even imagine.

 

[mbrinkhues]

The UHU night vision works with active IR

Tabun/Sarin/Soman work just fine through the skin, these are NOT the poison gases of WWII.

The Tallboys where never dropped by the USAAF, only by the RAF (mostly 617th Squadron) and the number of planes involved where less than 30.

The GrandSlam was another British bunker buster

And you overvalue Thor-Shots. Dud A4s impact at terminal velocities of Mach5 (typical Thor Speed) and weight multiple tons (4+) on impact (no warhead separation). They produce craters around 10-15m deep and 30-50 in diameter in normal soil. Having seen TallBoy craters: They are bigger

And while a modern plane/missile might HIT a battleship quite easily I seriously doubt it could KILL one. The 725kg Harpoon seaskimmer carries a 360kg SAP warhead at best (most are HE/Frag) and flies below Mach 1. Battleships are designed to survive multiple hits by 800+kg SAP shells coming in at 2-3 times the speed of sound

 

[BetterThanLife]

Terminal velocity of a Streamlined Kinetic Penetrator dropped from Geosynchronous Orbit is roughly Mach 22 at sea level. Where do you get Mach 5? (Again without bothering to strap an engine to it.)

WWII era nerve agent may work using skin contact but not very effectively. Its primary effect is from inhalation. VX on the other hand will kill in less than a minute from skin contact. (And get through ordinary clothing.)

As for sinking battleships, first that armor is very good at stopping weapons on the horizontal but not from directly above. BTW, I never said to use Harpoons, Mark 46 Torpedoes, Tomahawk, 2000lb laser guided bombs, will all do a number on a battleship. And since a Harpoon attacks from the top it is likely to do more damage than you might think. But again, those are just examples of how at TL8 these things do serious damage. I used the example of the USAAF because they actually were more accurate than the Lancasters. An RAF raid was considered a success if they hit the town where the factory was located, even if they missed the factory entirely.

Active IR night vision?

OK if that is the type of night vision you wish to use. Thanks for designating targets for the TL12 Mercs. And you certainly aren't going to use those for tracking assault boats on final approach. And even if you had that stuff indoors, which I seriously doubt, loss of power and smoke will prohibit their effective use.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Strange, terminal velocity for ICBM etc is commonly given at Mach5 due to air-drag etc. The same is commonly stated for Pournelles Project Thor

Even more strange that the lethal dose for Tabun is 50 milligram/kg bodyweight through skin contact. Sarin has around 12mg/kg around the same region as VX. The rather rare Soman was around 8mg/kg. Same effect on clothing according to my NBC training

And most planes you listened don't carry Tomahawks, they carry Harpoons (or equivalents). What torpedos like Mark 46 can do to a battleship can nicely be seen with Bismark. Unless you hit a rudder you might drop a sailor down a ladder. You seriously under-estimate the old battleships. They can take a SERIOUS pounding when they are Battle-ready (US Pacific Fleet in Pearl Harbor wasn't)

And I suggest you stop using massive city bombings as a (completely wrong) base and go for the precision attacks made by 617th (Dambusters) squadron. They DID put three out of 12 bombs THROUGH the Tirpitz with 2 more being close enough to damage.

And believe me the USAAF wasn't that precise either. Actually they used the same techniques but less targeting radars (The Brits had H2S)

 

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
[QB] Strange, terminal velocity for ICBM etc is commonly given at Mach5 due to air-drag etc. The same is commonly stated for Pournelles Project Thor

IIRC even some Soviet cruise missiles (supersonic sea skimmers like the Shipwreck or Kingfisher) can do at least Mach 5; are you sure the number for ICBMs isn´t higher?
Impact velocity for meteorites is generally assumed to be something in the range between 15 and 50 km/s, so it should be possible to get an artificial projectile to impact at such speeds.

Even more strange that the lethal dose for Tabun is 50 milligram/kg bodyweight through skin contact. Sarin has around 12mg/kg around the same region as VX. The rather rare Soman was around 8mg/kg. Same effect on clothing according to my NBC training

And most planes you listened don't carry Tomahawks, they carry Harpoons (or equivalents). What torpedos like Mark 46 can do to a battleship can nicely be seen with Bismark. Unless you hit a rudder you might drop a sailor down a ladder. You seriously under-estimate the old battleships. They can take a SERIOUS pounding when they are Battle-ready (US Pacific Fleet in Pearl Harbor wasn't)

How about Task Force Z? IIRC the planes that sunk Prince of Wales and Repulse carried 18-inch torpedoes, which have a smaller warhead that Mark 46´s - and PoW at least was much more modern than the the US Pacific Fleet.

 

[mbrinkhues]

PoW was sunk by a combination of a lucky hit on her weak spot (flooding through the drive shaft) and a number of bombs. And HMS Repair suffered bomb hits mostly

And the difference between a powered cruise missile and a ballistic missile during terminal flight is that the former applies artificial power to keep it's speed while the former is unpowered.