Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I can name about 50 or so countries on Earth like that. Most people want to get out of them.
Adventuring on High Law Level Worlds
- Thread starter ddamant
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I can name about 50 or so countries on Earth like that. Most people want to get out of them.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
You need push and pull factors.
Most people prefer to exist in a state of inertia.
Most people prefer to exist in a state of inertia.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I've probably been to 49 of them with the military at one point or another...
After considerable consideration, I decided that such a flippant answer does deserve a serious response. With respect to the military comment, unless you were a very well-traveled military attache or a very transferable Marine guard, I doubt very much if you have been in many of the countries that I can think of. However, some examples might be in order.
My wife's former college roommate is a missionary. In order to get her mail, she has to pay the postman a bribe. Note, this is mail properly stamped and does not need any additional postage. If no bribe, the mail is returned as "undeliverable" regardless of its origin, which typically is the U.S.
My oldest brother was trying to bring some filming equipment into a country to promote awareness for aid to children. Three attempts were made. The first attempt resulted in a demand for $10,000 U.S. to be paid to get it released from customs. The last attempt resulted in a demand for $100,000 U.S., in cash, for it to be released from customs. Despite repeated requests to the American Embassy, the filming equipment was never released to be brought into the county. With the help of the Embassy, they did manage to get the equipment shipped backed to the U.S.
I had a friend whose family lived overseas. They had a fire destroy most of their belongings, and friends and supporters here in the U.S. shipped replacement clothing and household goods to them. The customs officials refused to released the barrels without payment of a bribe, cash in U.S. Dollars. After 18 months, and the assistance of the U.S. Embassy, they finally managed to get the barrels released without payment of a bribe. The Embassy was told that the main reason was that the customs people needed the storage room.
An organization my oldest brother was aware of needed to get some equipment into a country very quickly, and deciding to speed the shipment, agreed to bribe the needed officials. From then on, everything the organization tried to bring in required bribes. After two years of this, the organization needed to pull out of the country, as the bribe amounts could no longer be concealed by accounting measures.
There appears to be an automatic assumption on the part of Traveller players, and role-playing gamers in general, that they are never on the receiving end of this sort of activity. After all, if a Game Master actually did something like this, his players would not be very happy. Therefore, just about anything goes in a gaming situation, as players first assume that they are immortal, and second, that they can do just about anything.
How would a session go if a group landed on a planet, and decided to make contacts with the local criminal elements to acquire some equipment. Their clothing, behavior, and accents clearly mark them as being from offworld. While in a bar, they have a few drinks. They then wake up a few hours later, the male player characters stripped to their underclothing, and in the cargo hold of a labor ship heading for the local asteroid belt as conscript asteroid miners. The female player characters are somewhere else.
Or maybe the players are bringing in some grav equipment to be used on the planet. They leave the starport area, are greeting by the local law enforcement officials, and informed that their grav equipment has been seized by the local government as needed military supplies. No compensation will be paid.
You are the owner of a Free Trader engaged in speculative trading. You land on a planet and get this terrific broker who is sure he will get you a 40 per cent bonus on the standard price. He then pays you only the standard price, and pockets the bonus proceeds. Your problem is then compounded by being told by the local longshoremen's union that to move your containers off of the starport to local shipping agencies will cost an extra 10,000 credits per container, payable in cash in advance. Otherwise, your containers do not move. Complaining to the starport authority does no good as they view it as a union matter and not their business.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
All these scenarios and situations are practically written into the rules with the LL harass/bribe/forgery paradigm.
You may find some player groups end up not wanting to get out of the starport because it's too much hassle 'out there'. That's fine, but ultimately some will take to it, and other adventures will require getting over a ' third galaxy' planet's ways, suck it up and get it done.
A fun thing to do with 'not gonna go there' types would be to use a rumor result to let them hear about another group that took their offered but refused job and scored big.
You've never read or ran Stranded on Arden, have you? Or any of the many times it was re-skinned in Classic too?
Sounds like the beginning of an adventure to me, just like Expedition to Zhodane.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I recall stories where American longshoremen could accidentally lose a container, if not it could experience shrinkage.
Also, facilitation fees should be handled by local brokers.
Also, facilitation fees should be handled by local brokers.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
The rules are precisely designed to create the kinds of situations timerover describes. They are also there to handle the followup of the PCs' actions (bribery, theft, violence, etc.) in response such behaviors on the part of the NOCs.
I don't know who these people are who might not understand that the PCs might be on the receiving end of abuse from the authorities of a planet -- but I can't see how anyone could read the rules of Basic Traveller and not see this sort of stuff is exactly what the game is about.
Further, if one reads the fiction that inspired the original rules (per interviews with Miller: The Dumarest books; The Demon Princes books; The Flandry books; and others) one finds these kinds of bureaucratic shenanigans all throughout the pages of these tales.
I suppose I should add (because Timerover and I have discussed matters like this before) that when I write the above I am not advocating for abusive and corrupt governments in real life. But I am saying such circumstances are grist for the mill in the sorts of adventure fiction Traveller was designed to emulate.
Because the key is that the player characters of Traveller are not people doing steady work to get a check on a regular basis. They choose to enter dangerous places for reasons and desires that demand they take the risk: for fame, for wealth, for vengeance, for family, for victory.... For any number of countless reasons.
This is one of the reasons I keep pointing at the actual rules of Basic Traveller. Because the rules promise dangerous landscapes and situations of all kinds. They are not there to organize a well-structured or ideal society, but rather a rough and tumble expanse of stars filled with pirates, monsters, corrupt officials, desperate nobles, dangerous spies, mercenaries on the march, cutthroat smugglers, violent terrorists, and more.
I understand this might not be the kind of landscape some people want. But it is the landscape set out in the rules of Basic Traveller. And the game does a great job of delivering just that.
______________________
As a side note, I hope that in the case of Timerover's examples, the Players would have the sense to scope out situations, take precautions, make Throws to gather information, bribe people properly, and so on. That, after all, is how the game is supposed to be played. I would hope, too, the Referee would let the players take such actions on behalf of their player characters.
______________________
Also, I wanted to add that I loved the posts upthread about how Law Level, Bribes, and Harassment interlock in important ways. It's a perfect example of the rules in those three little booklets being dense -- and really offering so much in terms of generating content when one takes the time to apply them. (And don't forget, Reaction Throws can figure into these elements as well. And can also figure into Timerover's examples in his post above.)
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Then don't go there.
Traders go where they can make a profit.
If the corruption is systemic enough to where everyone knows the "prices" of everything, then those can be calculated in to the overall transaction costs.
The uncertainty of "prices" has to be made up in the risk/reward calculation of the trip.
There's a story about 2 guys encountering a vendor.
"How much for that item?"
"For you, sir, $100!"
"Oh, that's too much. I'll give you $25..."
And it goes back and forth until they finally settle on a price.
At that point the other one goes, "Hey, I'll take one too!"
"For you, sir, that'll be $100."
Also, graft and corruption are cultural problems, not necessarily systemic ones. The higher law levels certainly have the potential to offer more opportunity for them to occur, since people interact with the "system" more often, but that doesn't necessarily mean they go hand in hand.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Exactly. You can get into all sorts of trouble in places were corruption is rampant and the law can do what they want.
It can be something small or large. It can be as simple as trying to get cash to do business on a planet. The official exchange rate is say 5 local units of money to 1 IC. The real rate anywhere else is 500 to 1.
The only way to get that real rate is if you find a person on the black market that will exchange money. So, now you need to discretely find someone who knows who that is, and hopefully you don't get steered into a robbery or the authorities nab you for illegal money laundering.
Or, the customs officials come aboard and tell you that you have to use an "authorized" broker to make you trades and such. They, of course, have a list of those you can choose from. The fee runs 25% and up of your trade, that's on top of taxes and such.
Making trades and moving cargo outside the "official" system gets you arrested for smuggling. A bribe might work... might...
Only the connected can get around this, and you aren't connected.
The customs officials come aboard to inspect your cargo. They declare the container of expensive designer clothing you have aboard contraband even though you didn't plan on it leaving the ship there. They demand the container be pulled off the ship and put in customs hold to ensure you don't trade on it on their planet. When you are getting ready to leave, there are complications and it will take several weeks to get your container back... Or, you can just leave it there...
When you hand your passport (or equivalent) over to the immigration guy at the starport, make sure there's a 50 Cr note inside or you'll be a while getting through customs and immigration, not to mention considerable embarrassment.
Exactly. What's been ignored in the usual whining about bribes, corruption, and whatnot is that the PCs needn't deal with such governments and cultures at all.
In the OTU, PCs can even safely trade on such worlds as long as they stay on the Imperium's side of the extrality line. They can deal with local "interface" businesses leaving the mordita and other such issues to the people who understand the government and culture in question.
As creativehum correctly notes, the practices being discussed in this thread are rife in both the game's source materials and the game's rules. They're as much a part of Traveller as magic is part of D&D. While you don't need to use them, ignoring them doesn't mean you get to mark off a box on your Holier Than Thou bingo card either.
Yes, exactly. Accept the risk and accept the consequences. Failure in Stranded on Arden means the PCs lose their ship and the initial poor choice made in Expedition to Zhodane results in the players being indentured laborers for a year or more.
Suggesting that such consequences aren't part of the game, means you haven't really read or understood the materials which make up the game.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Or....
Let's say you land on this planet before you know the score and only learn of all these shenanigans after they have occurred. You didn't avoid the planet because you didn't know better. Now you've been ripped off by the broker and facing a "union" committing larceny under a different name.
Now what?
That's the game!
What do the player character's choose to do? We'll, that's the question. Are they going to sit around and cry? Are they going to raise their hands to the heavens and shout "Why?"
Of course not.
The player characters are travellers. They are resourceful. Trained. Experienced. They are the rare breed that travels regularly between worlds. They don't expect life to be a cakewalk. In fact, they know that journeying between worlds holds no promise of regular order or a simple paycheck. Which is why they they are travelers!
Having been robbed by the broker and facing robbery by a gang of thieves what will the player characters do to recover their losses if not, somehow, come out ahead?
I don't know. But if I was the Referee I would be looking forward to seeing what my players did. If I was a player I'd be looking forward to putting the screws to the guy who had already wronged me an my crew and the folks getting ready to wrong us.
The original Traveller rules were never about building a socio-economic model-railroad of an interstellar society. Nor we're they about building a future interstellar society based on the ideals of 20th century civil society.
They are there to help build trouble for PCs, and allow the PCs to take action of countless kinds to pursue goals and overcome adversity of the sorts found in the SF adventure fiction that inspired the rules.
As the last page of Traveller Book 3 states in a section entitled A Final Word:
That last section of the 1981 edition of the rules was dropped from later editions. I truly believe the rules as written would make a lot more sense to many people if the passage had been retained.
Let's say you land on this planet before you know the score and only learn of all these shenanigans after they have occurred. You didn't avoid the planet because you didn't know better. Now you've been ripped off by the broker and facing a "union" committing larceny under a different name.
Now what?
That's the game!
What do the player character's choose to do? We'll, that's the question. Are they going to sit around and cry? Are they going to raise their hands to the heavens and shout "Why?"
Of course not.
The player characters are travellers. They are resourceful. Trained. Experienced. They are the rare breed that travels regularly between worlds. They don't expect life to be a cakewalk. In fact, they know that journeying between worlds holds no promise of regular order or a simple paycheck. Which is why they they are travelers!
Having been robbed by the broker and facing robbery by a gang of thieves what will the player characters do to recover their losses if not, somehow, come out ahead?
I don't know. But if I was the Referee I would be looking forward to seeing what my players did. If I was a player I'd be looking forward to putting the screws to the guy who had already wronged me an my crew and the folks getting ready to wrong us.
The original Traveller rules were never about building a socio-economic model-railroad of an interstellar society. Nor we're they about building a future interstellar society based on the ideals of 20th century civil society.
They are there to help build trouble for PCs, and allow the PCs to take action of countless kinds to pursue goals and overcome adversity of the sorts found in the SF adventure fiction that inspired the rules.
As the last page of Traveller Book 3 states in a section entitled A Final Word:
That last section of the 1981 edition of the rules was dropped from later editions. I truly believe the rules as written would make a lot more sense to many people if the passage had been retained.
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I can't say that the players will necessarily be successful, but I can say that they'll do "due diligence" to not let that happen to them again. Either in this campaign, or in a new campaign with "new" characters.
They'll need to be forced in to that kind of situation in the future.
"We have to land cuz..." kind of thing.
Forced or lured.
Neu Newark? Don't you remember the hell we went through there last year?
Sure I do, but look at this charter fee. Besides, we know what can happen this time around.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Well, keep in mind I find Timerover's premise (both the broker and the "union") so egregious that I might never run them as described.
The point I'm making is that no matter what the circumstances the players have agency in how to respond.
Foe me it would be: Kill the broker and get the money I'm owed to handle the broker. In the case of the "union" I'd eat the cost of simply leaving with the cargo and selling it on another planet and never returning to the world again.
The rules for trade are laid out cleanly and already difficult to make a profit from. Why the Referee would think introducing House Rules that literally make it impossible to offload cargo at a preposterous deficit could bring anything to the game, I'm not seeing it. It's a little bit like saying "Rocks fall from the sky. You all die."
If I had a Referee whose idea of fun was shake-down shenanigans every time we docked I'd politely leave the game. First, that's not at all what I think of when I think of Traveller. Second. It's kind of boring, right?
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creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Exactly.
Because the Big Point is that trouble waits on every world in one form or another. (I mean, we're playing to have adventures, right?)*
If we know this world is crazy, then we get to choose to approach it, we make a risk analysis, we choose to go (or not), we prepare as best we can, we deal with fallout.
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* As stated above, I'm still not sold on the notion of simply breaking the trade rules to make the lives of the PCs miserable. But I can see how an adventure can be spun out of it.
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