Ancients could not have found humans

[Chaos]

Another thought about Ancient experiments that just popped into my head:

The Ancients quite obviously had a lot of modifications in stock for humans - but why does every single human species only get one of them?

The solution, it occured to me, is rather simple: the Ancients were afraid that a human species with ALL modifications would be too much for them to control, and could get out of hand and destroy them. Therefore, every single subspecies got only one modification - amphibious capability for the Luriani, four arms for the Sydites, psionics for the Zhodani, longevity for the Vilani, and so on. Human on Earth were left unmodified as a "control group" - a stockpile of "original" specimens to use in case any of the experiments went wrong.

 

[aramis]

BSvG: Because the ancients overlooked the protoaslan; the aslan are the youngest race of the majors in terms of sentience.

 

[jfetters]

far-trader said:

Indeed, and there might still be worlds or places undiscovered where those creatures still roam in light and dark and not just dreams and nightmares.

Worlds of Werewolves (early Vargr/Human hybrid attempts) and other lycanthropes. Worlds with demons and angels in flesh. Worlds of Elves fair and Dwarves dour. All things once lost and written off as merely myth may be discovered anew if you only journy far enough Traveller...

Dark Conspiracy , anyone?

Or at least the creatures from it?

Too bad i ditched that several moves ago...

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Then why not Aslan, by that token? They are "tougher" physically, and also seem to have expansion of territory as part of thier psychological makeup. They also breed like crazy.

Perhaps the Aslan were too tough/resilient to reflect Droyne physiological requirements. Humans were sensitive enough that anything that would kill an Ancient would kill a human. It's just humans were genetically flexible enough to adapt to adverse conditions, while the stoic Droyne could not.

IMTU, the Aslan were only partially uplifted by the Ancients so their feral instincts still held sway, making them incredibly dangerous weapons. But the Ancient masters didn't take into account artificial selection; the smart Aslan managed to survive battles, while the dumb Aslan died in droves. Smart Aslan became the genetic template for the next generation and the smart genes were passed on. A warrior culture developed. But the refining of the species didn't become apparent until it was too late; the masters were overthrown and the neo-Aslan returned to dominate their lesser cousins on the homeworld. The secrets of space travel and high tech weapons were lost as warlords rose and fell until the timeline merges with the OTU.

 

[kafka47]

Isn't there a canon reference that a proto-Aslan was found frozen or some such thing on Mithril?

The Ancients took humaniti because they needed a script for a long quest home. Is it any coincidence that the Vilani Empire stretched Rimward in its greatest extent. Is it any co-instance that the Terrans reach out to Coreward expanse. The brothers of Man were destined to meet and as is Man's nature - clash.

If it were the Aslan, the second sons would have carved up all of Chartered Space brought in a great war with the K'kree and we would all have to learn how to "Yes, mighty Stepplord".

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by Chaos:
Re-reading the OTU timeline, it suddenly occured to that the Ancients visited Earth at a time when humans, as we know them, didn´t exist yet.

What I mean is, 300,000 years ago, homo sapiens sapiens - modern man - had not evolved from its ancestors. FWIW the stone-age tribes as we "know" them - the folks who created the cave paintings - appeared more or less 40,000 year ago. I´m not even sure if, 300,000 years ago, the famous Neanderthal man already existed.

Therefore, I´m not quite sure if it is realistic - as far as realism goes in a science fiction RPG - to portray all the minor branches of humanity as variations of homo sapiens sapiens. We evolved into HSS from what was around 300,000 years ago; however I don´t think it is all that likely that several dozen other populations of the same proto-humans in different environments did the same - and evolved close enough to be able to interbreed.
The stone age HSS (the Cro Magnon man) and the Neanderthal man co-evolved in the same environment, having "split" much more recently, but they still were just barely interfertile - and from what I´ve read about fossil discoveries, the result was a kind of "neither here nor there" half-breed, though apparently able to survive, and to procreate.

To sum it up, I think realistically we ought to see much more variety among humanity, even among those that were not "modified" visibly like Luriani and Sydites.

You're right. -300,000 years ago is too far removed from the timeline of Homo Sapiens appearance on Earth. Perhaps Marc Miller should revise that number to something like -70,000.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Isn't there a canon reference that a proto-Aslan was found frozen or some such thing on Mithril?

Huge images carved on a cliff wall, ancient, and unmistakably Aslan-looking.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kafka47:

Perhaps, the basis of our mythology and our monsters are what the Ancients cast out as experiments gone wrong.

Indeed, and there might still be worlds or places undiscovered where those creatures still roam in light and dark and not just dreams and nightmares.
</font>[/QUOTE]C.S.Lewis wrote a short story about the latest of a series of moon landings; each expedition would lose contact with Earth, and another would be sent to see what happened.

The expedition finds statues of the members of the previous expeditions, perfect to the last detail, created, apparently, by natives of the moon, perhaps in homage to the explorers.

The protagonist wonders why none of the previous explorers can be found, and why they didn't report back about the moon dwellers. Then he sees a shadow of someone -- something -- coming up behind him, a humanoid creature with some subtle differences, such as large tentacle-like things instead of hair... he turns around...

...and that's how the story ends.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
These Ancient neanderthals would have been like titans to the homo sapiens still around, and may have worked together at first once their masters -the Ancients - had left.
But over the centuries rivalries develop, then conflict, and then war.
The ANs breeding and modification of HS as troops and servants eventually produce HSS, who eventually revolt and overthrow their masters.

Huh. Kronos and Iapetos Patros? I like it.

That might place the epicenter of Uplifted Neanderthals at Thera... and the latest eruption had more to it than just a smoldering volcano.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
You're right. -300,000 years ago is too far removed from the timeline of Homo Sapiens appearance on Earth. Perhaps Marc Miller should revise that number to something like -70,000.

Careful with your terminology

Homo sapiens has been around for 400,000 years.

It's Homo sapiens sapiens that's only been here for 130,000 years or so.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by robject:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
These Ancient neanderthals would have been like titans to the homo sapiens still around, and may have worked together at first once their masters -the Ancients - had left.
But over the centuries rivalries develop, then conflict, and then war.
The ANs breeding and modification of HS as troops and servants eventually produce HSS, who eventually revolt and overthrow their masters.

Huh. Kronos and Iapetos Patros? I like it.

That might place the epicenter of Uplifted Neanderthals at Thera... and the latest eruption had more to it than just a smoldering volcano. </font>[/QUOTE]Nice touch that

 

[robject]

Might make a bizarre adventure, eh?

 

[mike wightman]

It would make for an interesting "fantasy" game - especially if the PCs eventually discover their legacy from the Ancients...

magic based on psionics, biotech, and nanotech...

hunter/killer androids left over from the Ancients' wars...

biomod Droyne...

packs of wild vargr living in the wilderness...

 

[THHeinrichT1@aol.com]

Originally posted by Chaos:
Re-reading the OTU timeline, it suddenly occured to that the Ancients visited Earth at a time when humans, as we know them, didn´t exist yet.

What I mean is, 300,000 years ago, homo sapiens sapiens - modern man - had not evolved from its ancestors. FWIW the stone-age tribes as we "know" them - the folks who created the cave paintings - appeared more or less 40,000 year ago. I´m not even sure if, 300,000 years ago, the famous Neanderthal man already existed.

Therefore, I´m not quite sure if it is realistic - as far as realism goes in a science fiction RPG - to portray all the minor branches of humanity as variations of homo sapiens sapiens. We evolved into HSS from what was around 300,000 years ago; however I don´t think it is all that likely that several dozen other populations of the same proto-humans in different environments did the same - and evolved close enough to be able to interbreed.
The stone age HSS (the Cro Magnon man) and the Neanderthal man co-evolved in the same environment, having "split" much more recently, but they still were just barely interfertile - and from what I´ve read about fossil discoveries, the result was a kind of "neither here nor there" half-breed, though apparently able to survive, and to procreate.

To sum it up, I think realistically we ought to see much more variety among humanity, even among those that were not "modified" visibly like Luriani and Sydites.

Well two things come into mind reading this.

1) Evidence of Homo Sapiens Sapien dates Back to 160 000 Years. AND there is an evidence for a culture that existet 300.000 Years ago in Brazil, The Articel I am referring to was in the Dallas Times Herald from June 16, 1987. Since Carbondating of the found Artefacts would only allow a tolerance of about +/- 10 000 Years this is rather astounding. Furthermore exists Evidence in Europe That ther was an archaic Form of the Homo Sapien, that existet about 500 000 Years ago... (Article from Acherman, Sandra; "European History Gets Even Older", Science (Magazine) 246:28, 1989). That does it to the 40.000 Years.

2) There is a minor Race, called the Vrast, which descent from the Neanderthal. A Tribute goes to Doug Steward who inventet this fabulous Race, which in itself could well be a major Race.

The Mess was done in school, were people most of the time forget, that the scientific facts of today are the legends of tomorrow.

Wishes

Torsten

 

[THHeinrichT1@aol.com]

Doublet, sorry!