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Another Empress Wave theory

Speaking of Sanger...has anything more been added to the saga in 2003 or are we still deadlocked with the MWM-T20-Sanger, not wanting to release anything till he gets some money.

Gee, maybe, Sanger now owns Seeker for all the lies that I have had go through with them. So far they seem only to be an eBay company not wanting to release anything but overpriced adventures/deckplans at above market rates on the "Buy-It-Now" portions of eBay...
 
Originally posted by TheDS:
And there's no hint of that ridiculous jump-masking to be found in either!
I wouldn't say jump masking is ridiculous. It has long been a Traveller thing that passing within 100Ds of a planet could precipitate you out of jump, so it make sense. Granted I often ignore it for the sake of ease (it isn't too hard to orbit half-way round a planet before heading away), but it is still a valid idea.

Shane
 
Please don't take this as biting your head off, because I'm not trying to be that way. I am presenting my understanding of canon, and maybe one or both of us can gain some education here.

The phenomenon that prevents precipitation within 100 diameters is related to the gravitational reasons for a misjump; that is, if you are too close to a body, you have a chance of misjumping. When precipitating, a misjump would be "impossible", so the only recourse for nature is to kick you out of jump in a different location. There is no difference in energy used (by the ship) for this altered course, nor any difference in time. It just happens.

Jump masking presumes that there are things in jumpspace, and that these things are created by things in N-space. Canon clearly and repeatedly states that nothing in J-space can contact or otherwise be influenced by something in N-space. By allowing jump-masking, we mess up a few things.

One, just about every object will prevent a jump from occuring, or cause a ship to precipitate far away from fuel sources. Asteroid belts become VERY annoying. Stars have HUGE imprints. The Oort cloud will be absolute SUICIDE to your time schedule, and if you're a merchant, you're not carrying anything to decanter an iceball with, so it becomes an even bigger problem now that you're out of jump fuel. Let's not even talk about the rouge interstellar objects.

Two, now you can create a defense net at the edge of your solar system. Set up some gossamer balls with a large diameter, drop them all over the place in the outer system... You don't even have to cover the whole sphere, just the avenues of approach, and keep them in place with a few tugs. When wars break out, the enemy is stopped way out in the boonies, with no way to refuel, and they have some armed ships out there to pick them off. Set up a few more of the balls and inflate them at the right time, and the enemy can't jump away even if they have enough fuel in their tanks.

Three, it becomes possible for a ship's position to be known in J-space, when in fact it has NO position beyond how long it's been in there. There is no such thing as physical position in J-space.

Four, it becomes possible to communicate with ships between J and N-space. If there are ways for objects to intrude into J-space without actually entering it, a ship there should be able to see it, and you can send messages that way.

Five, schedules are out the door. Canon clearly goes with a 2-week merchant jump schedule. 1 week in jump, 1 week at the world, with maybe a day wasted transiting to and from the jump point. Rapid transit jumps of 1 week and minimal fueling time are pretty much gone too. It's just TOO likely that you will get bumped by some Oort object, or graze the home star, or some stupid asteroid, or some system runabout in just the wrong place.

All in all, this is a disaster that was not thought about at all. Some one said "Hey, that sounds cool!" and didn't bother to consider what it meant. While it does SOUND cool, it just doesn't work HERE.
 
Originally posted by TheDS:
[QB]The phenomenon that prevents precipitation within 100 diameters is related to the gravitational reasons for a misjump; that is, if you are too close to a body, you have a chance of misjumping. When precipitating, a misjump would be "impossible", so the only recourse for nature is to kick you out of jump in a different location. There is no difference in energy used (by the ship) for this altered course, nor any difference in time. It just happens.
Marc Miller wrote an article on Jump Space that in JTAS at the end of 2000 (click the link if you're a JTAS subscriber), that explained how it works. I'm not going to quote it word for word here, but basically he says:

Entering jump is possible from anywhere, but if you try to jump from within 100D of a body then you're more likely to misjump (the chance increases if you try to jump from closer to the body).

However, if you try to exit jumpspace within 100D of a body, you will instead be precipitated out of jumpspace at 100D from the body.

That said, he later says that gravity scrambles the transition into jump space, which is why you have a high chance of misjump or disaster if you jump within 100D of a planet.

Then he says that ships naturally precipitate out of jumpspace at the 100D limit (or more precisely 'as they near the 100D limit'. I don't know why he says this, it just confuses things).


So the upshot of all that is that it appears that if a ship intersects the 100D radius of an object, it will precipitate out of jump. Hence why you have 'jump masking'

All this is paraphrased from the fingers of Marc Miller, so it's up to you if you believe him or if you believe any later canon that someone's written.

One, just about every object will prevent a jump from occuring, or cause a ship to precipitate far away from fuel sources. Asteroid belts become VERY annoying.
Only very massive objects have 100D limits. I'm not sure what the mass limit is, but it's probably around the 100m diameter mark. But since it's based on radius and not something sensible like mass or gravity it's hard to tell.

I figured that you only get 100D limits around objects that are sufficiently dense (I think it was about 10e-11 kg/m3 - denser than vacuum and nebulas), but that's just IMO.

Stars have HUGE imprints.
Yes. Especially Giants and supergiants (Antares' 100D limit is around 1000 AU!). The Sun's 100D limit is at about 0.93 AU.

The Oort cloud will be absolute SUICIDE to your time schedule, and if you're a merchant, you're not carrying anything to decanter an iceball with, so it becomes an even bigger problem now that you're out of jump fuel.
The chance of your ship intersecting the 100D limit of a tiny iceball (or rockball in an asteroid belt) for that matter is miniscule. Especially if you're coming from a direction outside the ecliptic plane of the system.

Let's not even talk about the rouge interstellar objects.
See above. A planet's 100D limit is insignificantly small compared to a cubic parsec of empty space. The chances of a ship intersecting that are microscopically small.

Two, now you can create a defense net at the edge of your solar system. Set up some gossamer balls with a large diameter, drop them all over the place in the outer system... You don't even have to cover the whole sphere, just the avenues of approach, and keep them in place with a few tugs. When wars break out, the enemy is stopped way out in the boonies, with no way to refuel, and they have some armed ships out there to pick them off. Set up a few more of the balls and inflate them at the right time, and the enemy can't jump away even if they have enough fuel in their tanks.
Won't work - the balls won't be massive enough to have a 100D limit. As far as we can tell, the object has to have a vaguely significant gravitational field.


Three, it becomes possible for a ship's position to be known in J-space, when in fact it has NO position beyond how long it's been in there. There is no such thing as physical position in J-space.
I can't see your logic here.


Four, it becomes possible to communicate with ships between J and N-space. If there are ways for objects to intrude into J-space without actually entering it, a ship there should be able to see it, and you can send messages that way.
The only thing that affects anything in jump space is a gravitational field from a sufficiently large object. At worst, even if you could turn that into a weapon to affect things in jump space, all it'd do is cause the ship to precipitate out of jumpspace.


Five, schedules are out the door. Canon clearly goes with a 2-week merchant jump schedule. 1 week in jump, 1 week at the world, with maybe a day wasted transiting to and from the jump point.
No it doesn't - ships take however long they need to go from the planet to its 100D limit (or to get to the star's 100D limit, if that's further out), then they spend a week in jump, and then they take the time to travel to the destination planet from the 100D limit that they precipitated out at.

Rapid transit jumps of 1 week and minimal fueling time are pretty much gone too. It's just TOO likely that you will get bumped by some Oort object, or graze the home star, or some stupid asteroid, or some system runabout in just the wrong place.
Except that it's actually not remotely likely that you'll be precipitated out of jumpspace by an Oort object, and the point of the astrogation roll at the start of the jump is to avoid such objects and the star's 100D limit.

All in all, this is a disaster that was not thought about at all. Some one said "Hey, that sounds cool!" and didn't bother to consider what it meant. While it does SOUND cool, it just doesn't work HERE.
Obviously that's just your opinion. For starters, it clearly HAS been thought about in great detail (this is obvious from the tracts on the subject in Far Trader, and from work that Chris Thrash has done). Also, it's worked for many people so far. Clearly it doesn't work for YOU, and you can obviously ignore it IYTU, but that doesn't mean that others are wrong to incorporate it.
 
Just one point:
Marc clearly says it is 100D, not some function of gravity. And that it applies only on 'fairly massive' objects.

Of course, fairly massive is a judgement call. But the effect is nowise gravity related. Two equal diameter worlds with differing compositions both have the same 100D limit.

I am *sure* this was done for simplicity, but it does suggest that this is some odd property of *matter* or *mass* rather than gravitation.
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
Just one point:
Marc clearly says it is 100D, not some function of gravity. And that it applies only on 'fairly massive' objects.

Of course, fairly massive is a judgement call. But the effect is nowise gravity related. Two equal diameter worlds with differing compositions both have the same 100D limit.

I am *sure* this was done for simplicity, but it does suggest that this is some odd property of *matter* or *mass* rather than gravitation.
Well, I'll quote from the article this one time:

"....the perturbing effects of gravity make it impractical to begin a jump within a gravity field of more than certain specific limits based on size, density, and distance"

What makes this really crazy is that a neutron star (4 solar masses, crammed into a 30 km diameter sphere) has the same 100D limit as an 30km diameter asteroid that masses only a few trillion kg. According to MWM, if it's based on size, density and distance, then the increased density of the neutron star should (presumably)push the 100D radius away from the star - but there's no indication that this ever occurs in Traveller. No matter what the density of the object is, the distance is always 100 times the diameter of the object. This is irrespective of the gravitational field strength at that distance. This is rather strange.

Technically a black hole shouldn't even have a 100D limit, since it has no radius (the singularity itself is infinitely small. The event horizon is a radius, but that's just a distance that has no physical meaning beyond 'light can't escape from within this distance from the singularity').

The way 100D limits are determined is one of the most nonsensical things about Traveller IMO.
 
Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
<snip>

The way 100D limits are determined is one of the most nonsensical things about Traveller IMO.
I have to agree. I think it was put in place in order to make the safe jump distance calculations easier.

It's kind of funny that, as new versions of Traveller came out some calculations remained simple while others became more complicated. For example, designing starships became much more complicated as one progressed from HG to FF&S. Expanded World Generation info went from nil in CT to quite a bit of detail in World Tamer's Handbook. But yet the 100 diameter rule remains. And fixing that would be really easy.

IMTU I incorporated a simple fix to account for the density of the 3 most common objects: rocks, gas giants, and stars. It's similar to this article.

The safe jump distance rule leaves out mass. Gravity is function of mass and the safe jump distance rule states that the gravity well of world directly affects one's ability to jump. Rather than get bogged down in heavy equations, I chose density ratios because, from what we know of our own solar system, gas giants are only 1/5 (approximately) as dense as terrestial bodies.

Rocks, which includes terrestial worlds and asteroids, are chosen as the 100 diameter rule standard. So, no difference there.

Gas giants and stars are approximately 1/5 as dense as terrestial bodies. So, safe jump distance from stars and planets are 20 diameters out.

If you do the math, the safe jump distances of stars and gas giants are still much larger than those for terrestial worlds, but they're, IMO, more realistic.

I haven't tried incorporating neutron stars or black holes into the equation. My pc's haven't encountered either of those so I haven't worked them in yet.

Could it be more precise/complex? Sure. But I only wanted to improve the system a little bit. If you make the calculation too complex, it will bog the game down.
 
The way I get around it is to calculate it based on gravity - the limit is where the gravitational field drops below 0.01 m/s2. More fiddly to calculate, but more sensible IMO. Using that method, I get the following distances (measured from the centre of the bodies):

Luna: 0.00015 AU (22,150 km; 12.75 radii)
Earth: 0.00133 AU (199,658 km; 31.3 radii)
Neptune (Small GG): 0.00551 AU (826,723 km; 33.57 radii)
Jupiter (Large GG): 0.02367 AU (3,550,371 km; 49.73 radii)
Brown Dwarf: 0.13 AU (19.95 million km; 258 radii)
Sun: 0.77 AU (165 radii)
White Dwarf: 0.77 AU (11,520 radii)
Neutron Star: 1.09 AU (about 11 million radii)
B5 V: 1.78 AU (44.62 radii)
Supergiant: 2.97 AU (0.59 radii)


Using the 100D method in Traveller, I get (for the same objects):

Luna: 0.002 AU
Earth: 0.009 AU
SGG: 0.033 AU
LGG: 0.095 AU
Brown Dwarf: 0.103 AU
Sun: 0.93 AU
White Dwarf: 0.0133 AU
Neutron Star: 0.00002 AU
B5 V: 8 AU
Supergiant: 1000 AU

AS you can see, that's a fairly big difference, especially for the more massive objects further down the list. A supergiant's jump limit goes from 1000 AU in the OTU down to within its own radius (i.e. you can arrive at any distance beyond the supergiant)!

Anthony Jackson's got another method for calculating gravity-based limits, but he uses tides rather than the gravitational field straight up.
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Oort cloud will be absolute SUICIDE to your time schedule,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The chance of your ship intersecting the 100D limit of a tiny iceball (or rockball in an asteroid belt) for that matter is miniscule. Especially if you're coming from a direction outside the ecliptic plane of the system.
The Oort Cloud is a sphere, extending a ly or two out into space. It's not that dense, but there's still a finite chance you'll hit it.
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
The Oort Cloud is a sphere, extending a ly or two out into space. It's not that dense, but there's still a finite chance you'll hit it.
It's roughly a sphere composed of many tiny iceballs separated by tens of AU, with equally tiny 100D limits. There may be a finite chance that you'll hit one of those 100D limits, but it's still a miniscule tiny chance. If the Pioneers and Voyagers could make it through the asteroid belt without being hit by a single thing, then a ship can make it through the Oort cloud too.
 
Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:

Anthony Jackson's got another method for calculating gravity-based limits, but he uses tides rather than the gravitational field straight up.
Because it's the only gravitational-based formula that resembles 100D. Using a constant tidal effect works out to 100d * (density/5.5), or 1,280,000 km * (mass/mass of earth)^1/3, or about 0.6 AU * (mass/msun)^1/3.
 
Hi pilots,

I get out of this trouble with 100D of any space objects by specifing that these limit effects just the "transition" phase from and to jumpspace.
The automatic 100D drop-off from jumpspace happens because the ship is in "transition" mode and a kind of connection to real space is already established.
The limit has no effect on "regular" deep jump space travel, so Oort cloudes or other naughty things in space do not make problems.

At least in IMTU we also use gravitation based jump limits. It just gives the (good) feeling of beeing more scientific
and the effect on the game is not cruicle.

On the other hand I would have no problem to accept, that just the geometry of an object has influence on transition subspace, so that just the diameter and not mass is important.
Its fiction, so do what you want or what your players prefer...


Mert
 
Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
The Oort Cloud is a sphere, extending a ly or two out into space. It's not that dense, but there's still a finite chance you'll hit it.
It's roughly a sphere composed of many tiny iceballs separated by tens of AU, with equally tiny 100D limits. There may be a finite chance that you'll hit one of those 100D limits, but it's still a miniscule tiny chance. If the Pioneers and Voyagers could make it through the asteroid belt without being hit by a single thing, then a ship can make it through the Oort cloud too.
</font>
Those spacecraft didn't have to worry about objects that were a million times larger than asteroids either (specifically the asteroids' jump-shadows). :cool:

I wish I could remember the reference exactly... I think it was Challenge (that's the only Trav mag I bought, but I have a couple other mags' issues that were given to me) in which a reader wrote in and asked "my PCs energized the jump drive of their ship while it was parked inside another ship. What happens?"

The answer was "It's within 100 diameters of something, namely the ship they were in. Misjump! And it's a doosy, since they're within TEN diameters."

(Disclaimer: Exact quotes are not necessarily exact.)

As the Engineer says (paraphrasing), you are connected to n-space only at the moments of transition.

Oh, and thanks for quoting the useful bits from that article, Doc. I don't have a subscription to anything right now. Too depressed to get one since Challenge and Amiga World ran out. :D
 
I get out of this trouble with 100D of any space objects by specifing that these limit effects just the "transition" phase from and to jumpspace.
That's the way I (and just about everybody else) always did it, because that's what CT, MT, TNE, T4, and early GT said (or at least strongly implied).
 
Originally posted by TheDS:
Those spacecraft didn't have to worry about objects that were a million times larger than asteroids either (specifically the asteroids' jump-shadows). :cool:
Remember that asteroid belts are not like what you see in Star Wars - they're not full of tumbling rocks hurtling around at random velocities. The asteroids are actually separated by millions of km, and are mostly less than a km across (100D is less than 100 km).

Given that they're separated by several million km, that still makes it very unlikely for what is essentially a line with no thickness (the jump route) to intersect a 100D limit.
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
There's still a >0 chance of hitting something, especialy when you're passing through several systems en route.
And chances are, you won't be. Remember, the big bodies in a system usually occupy a space only a few dozen AU in radius - the rest of that is very thinly spread, miniscule Oort Cloud Objects over a shell a lightyear or so across.

Sure, the chance will be >0, but I think we're still talking about probabilities vastly less than 1% (unless you really goof the astrogation roll). Space is simply not crowded enough to make that probability any higher.
 
Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Sun: 0.77 AU (165 radii)
How many AU out does Earth orbit? (Or more generally, doesn't this mean that with some star types that the mainworld in the habitable zone is likely inside the stellar 100D limit (doubly so if you're in one of these binary or trinary systems where the 100D limit would extend from the primary but another would extend from the companions and you might get sandwiching effects)?

AS you can see, that's a fairly big difference, especially for the more massive objects further down the list. A supergiant's jump limit goes from 1000 AU in the OTU down to within its own radius (i.e. you can arrive at any distance beyond the supergiant)!
Interesting. Something like a supergiant is a special case though... ;)

I agree with your comment that the unchanging nature of the 100D jump limits are rather silly. I was merely pointing out what mark said to Chris Thrash when he was working on GT:FT (I think that's when he indicated it was a property of D not G then clearly). I don't necessarily think that is sensible or interesting (nor do I agree with our engineer friend on the whole jump emergence issues - I think 100D forced precip by any large object suggests that it isn't just at either end of the jump that their is some link between jumpspace and realspace), but it does seem to be the canonical approach.
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
How many AU out does Earth orbit?
1 AU
. This being how an AU is defined - it's the separation between the Earth and Sun.


(Or more generally, doesn't this mean that with some star types that the mainworld in the habitable zone is likely inside the stellar 100D limit (doubly so if you're in one of these binary or trinary systems where the 100D limit would extend from the primary but another would extend from the companions and you might get sandwiching effects)?
An mid M V (0.2 solar masss) star (in my gravity scheme) would have a jump limit distance of about 0.3 AU, and early M V star (0.3 solar mass) jump limit would be around 0.4 AU. In OTU terms, the 100D limits for those would be 0.1 - 0.2 AU. Still, in most cases those limits would still be outside the habitable zone for M stars, won't they?

That might go some way to explain why so many uninhabitable worlds are inhabited in Traveller - because the more habitable worlds are deeper in the star's 100D limit, and so take longer to get to in terms of travel through real space from the 100D limit (and are therefore less economical?)?


Interesting. Something like a supergiant is a special case though... ;)
True. Though even ordinary red giant stars (which are more common) would have 100D limits in the tens or hundreds of AU.
 
Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
1 AU
. This being how an AU is defined - it's the separation between the Earth and Sun.
The sad part is I knew that... once.
file_28.gif


An mid M V (0.2 solar masss) star (in my gravity scheme) would have a jump limit distance of about 0.3 AU, and early M V star (0.3 solar mass) jump limit would be around 0.4 AU. In OTU terms, the 100D limits for those would be 0.1 - 0.2 AU. Still, in most cases those limits would still be outside the habitable zone for M stars, won't they?

That might go some way to explain why so many uninhabitable worlds are inhabited in Traveller - because the more habitable worlds are deeper in the star's 100D limit, and so take longer to get to in terms of travel through real space from the 100D limit (and are therefore less economical?)?
This was my fear (I tried the gravity based scheme.... I actually prefer it, but it changes how a lot of systems would work, unless you set the threshold at a very different value to prevent this encroachment of stellar effects over habitable zone orbits....).

Now, on another level, your suggestion is good for another reason, as it serves to limit jumping in near to the main planet with a high speed vector and unloading ordinance or fighters - you have more warning because ships precipitate out further out....
 
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