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Any Interest in a Traveller Open Simulator 3D Universe?

Keep in mind, Nick: there are only about 100-300 active* users of this board. (Sure, we've over 13K on the rolls - but many are occasional, about 3K are spammers who have been ejected, and about 250 are punted for various reasons...

* active meaning posting at least once a week or reading daily. It varies by time of year.
 
Nick Lassard said:
Folks, tabling this is more of a measure of seeing 2000 people jump on the bandwagon for T5 ... of which I was happily one, then see perhaps 5 show interest in bringing Trav to a new dimension (literally). I was expecting folks to jump at this. The resources alone to put this online require at a minimum hundreds of dollars per month, potentially much more.
Click to expand...

I thought that might be it. Marc Miller is a legend in the gaming community. He's paid his dues and people know this. And still there are only a handful of people giving the time for the editing..

Please look over your early notes: I thought that you were looking for volunteers and not money. It is always easier to get a large group of people to give money than time, assuming you have something worth them buying.

Marc offered a lot of tangible items - the book, dice, shirts - but he also offered a lot of intangibles such as the patents of nobility that you aren't in a position to offer yet.

And the money you need is laughable - $1,000 was food money for a month before we were on a fixed income and the economy tanked. I would have eaten pasta for a couple of years to make a prototype of this had it been available.

People, on the other hand are a much more difficult resource to get. The fact that you had four volunteers in a week is a miricle in a community as small as this.

That being said, I'm not an amateur at SL or OS. I built Romenna, an expansive Tolkien themed sim in SL then rebuilt bigger and better in OS. I know exactly what it takes to build, particularly the time requirement. I also know that beyond the 'structure' of the sim(s) it will take more than one person, perhaps many to bring something worthwhile to life. Eventually we'll need ship builders, clothing designers, systems designers and community admins. I'm not interested in organizing the community because I want to spend my time building the world.
Click to expand...

Then build. I won't even look at your fantasy stuff because all that tells me is that you can build a small system

Until you find an organizer this will remain a one man project.

You have me just intriqued enough that I may download and install OS on my main system. If you can convince me your project is worth it, I can donate a nice system to the cause as well as time. I don't have any more money for now because I spent it all at Kickstarter.

And what is a "prim?"

D. Jay Newman
 
DT, I'm not asking for money.

I was simply gauging interest, but also clarifying that once it goes from a build stage to a full-up grid (where hundreds of people can access,) it would required funding to sustain...just like any online game. The difference here is we can build this if we want instead of waiting eternally for Trav to go 3D and catch up with the 21st century.

Thanks to a friend, the land and resources required to build this are free and currently waiting. Strange as that sounds, there are some fantastic people in the world and the host is one of them. Theoretically the region set could remain on his grid indefinately. I just think that it would be better to give it over to more desirous parties.

I actually am pleased that folks have shown interest...participation is the lifeblood of something like this. Its just that it takes a LOT of interest to make something like this fly, so there really isn't a point in me spending a thousand hours working on this if its going to remain empty or fizzle. So far the reception is kinda luke warm.

"Prim:" Open Simulator and its ancestor Second Life allow in-world users to create objects like Legos called 'prims'...short for 'primitive objects'. These objects come in many shapes and are of variable size like blocks, spheres, pyramids and cylinders. They can be rotated, sized, textured and cut. Additionally special spatial distortion maps can be added to them to create exceptionally detailed objects that defy the 'primitive' baseline. These objects can also be programmed via scripting to perform actions or react in world, particularly physics.

Essentially this is a virtual world you enter then build from inside as your avatar. Except for the special construction tools, its just like real life. Only virtual.

And the avatars are actually very good.
 
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new project

This sounds promising

For the record their have been many efforts to pull Traveller into 3D. The OTU is part of the problem being 2D in nature.

However, I do have a friend that spent a lot of time coding in 2nd life. I'll inquire.
 
Nick Lassard said:
DT, I'm not asking for money.

I was simply gauging interest, but also clarifying that once it goes from a build stage to a full-up grid (where hundreds of people can access,) it would required funding to sustain...just like any online game. The difference here is we can build this if we want instead of waiting eternally for Trav to go 3D and catch up with the 21st century.
Click to expand...

The problem is that what you call gauging interest is partly asking who is willing to pay for something like this. Also when you compared it to the Kickstarter thing.

Most charities need volunteers mor than money, but I think the ratio is about 1 to 1,000 of volunteers to money donators, and I'm probably being generous. All the people who donated to Kickstarter were giving money.

You need people with interest, skills, and time. Most people have other projects of their own. Until you get or become the project coordinator, I won't touch this project. I've been a project coordinator and I don't think I'll ever do that again.

I really think this could be a great project, and I'll help once you get a coordinator. I think that people here showed a huge interest because I counted at least 4 volunteers. If you want more, go to other groups.
 
I'd like to talk about the vision I have.

Essentially it rises from Star Wars in SL, now Star Wars the Old Republic and their emphasis on super powered characters killing the universe. I suppose that is MMORPGs in general. I've always been a roleplayer, much more interested in a quiet conversation in Startown than the shooting. The shooting as spice, however, has always been what makes the game 'interesting.' It is in the end required.

The only effort I was aware of for Trav was a single sim in SL that popped up and went away a few years ago. Tried to get there and was very disappointed it was gone. Nonetheless, SL comes with an extreme price ag. What offers in return is a market of a zillion things, along with access to players. That access, however, doesn't keep Star Wars sims filled with people. In fact, its generally a handful at most.

So, despite the fact that thousands are interested they are dispersed and RP is spotty. What does that say for a Traveller effort?

1) Not in SL...$300 a month will bankrupt anyone...and that is only one sim.
Open Sim, which is a derivative of Second Life, is much cheaper, running a full sim for $90 a month on a hosted grid or 'free' on a home system. Of course you pay for that machine running, and when it goes down its very annoying. I happen to have a friend who runs a grid and they are looking for people to use it. Lots of land. Lots of potential. Just needs to be used.

2) Gotta have either a LOT of interest or a really devoted core of people who want to create it.

3) Can't be one person...1 person cannot build a universe, but they can 'frame' it and provide a general template to help others get started

4) Long term project...the goal has to be either to continue to grow with the technical improvements to the Open Simulator project or eventually garner enough interest to get someone to want to do a MMORPG based on it. I lean toward the former.

Maybe people really don't want 3D Traveller, but I've always wanted to sit in the cockpit of a Type S...always wanted to see Regina from orbit. If people don't take the first step somewhere, it will never happen.

So, if there is any place of finding that second set of people its the Trav Gearheads. I started playing Trav in 1981 and still dust it off occasionally. There is, perhaps, not a day that goes by I don't think of something about it and how life is becoming like what Marc predicted in many ways.

Perhaps I do need to build something so that people could see the potential. I just know that if its ever going to turn into something, it will involve the talents of artists and programmers to get beyond the 'nice looking chat room' phase.

Nick
 
DT, I just read your reply post.

I'll be Project Coordinator if we get a reasonable sample of talent.

I just want to be able to ensure the quality of the build by overseeing structures, ships, etc. I've done that by building them in the past. Anyone can build in SL or OS and 99% of it is abysmal. The style I work toward is lifelike and expansive.

I know how to do that and yes its painful. I also expect it will be a 'long burn' project building capacities over time. In general I see a progression like this:

Phase 1) is to to get to the "nice looking chatroom" in PM Grid
Phase 2) is to build the first RP venues, including ships and world 'sets' in PM Grid
Phase 3) is to build the systems based on Traveller: commerce, combat. This will be a combination of programming and more probably scripting using Mono.
Phase 4) is starships. These will be both 'static' ships and hopefully as the tech improves mobile.

SL and OS are constrained to 256mx256m regions. OS has variable regions (megaregions) ranging from up to 4096m, so as they become more common exapansive worlds will become more common. As it is the Romenna grid in OS PM Grid is 4x4 regions, covering 1km2.

My thoughts have generally been that there was no desire for Romenna and I'd hoped I might find that desire for something else I love here.

So, those are my thoughts.

Note that I don't see these as being serial, rather dependant upon the skills of the build team.
 
Nick Lassard said:
Phase 1) is to to get to the "nice looking chatroom" in PM Grid
Phase 2) is to build the first RP venues, including ships and world 'sets' in PM Grid
Phase 3) is to build the systems based on Traveller: commerce, combat. This will be a combination of programming and more probably scripting using Mono.
Phase 4) is starships. These will be both 'static' ships and hopefully as the tech improves mobile.

SL and OS are constrained to 256mx256m regions. OS has variable regions (megaregions) ranging from up to 4096m, so as they become more common exapansive worlds will become more common. As it is the Romenna grid in OS PM Grid is 4x4 regions, covering 1km2.
.
Click to expand...

A couple early questions;
1. How much server(s) space do you have at your disposal? And for how long?
2. What type of combat are you hoping to emulate?
 
Nick Lassard said:
Open Sim is nearly the same as Second Life. It does not run on Linden Labs servers and is therefore much more affordable.

I am curious as to whether there might be interest from the community in building a few slivers of the Marches or Imperial Space (worlds) in the Open Simulator environment.

I have unique access to a grid that is free to build on. Once at an initial operating capability the series of builds would be moved to an operating grid, where the financing would be needed.

Just looking for interest.

Nick
Click to expand...


I am all for this! I do not know anything about programming nor do I have the equipement to be of any help. Alas If it comes to funding I may be able to swing a few credits (I.E. RL US $) into the project.

The is a Traveller APP Availble for smart phones iphone I think... I do not have one of those or I'd be playing it too. So if it could be intergrated...nice huh.

Anyway, I am will to contirbute even in world building and story creation ideas. let alone some funds. Sounds like a kickstarter project to me. www.kickstarter.com :D

Joseph


to add, now that I have read more. What can I do, with no scripting/programming know-how, help build the universe in TRaveller fashion in OS?

Please explain, and if It does not require me to spend 400 credit hours in programers class, I'm in for the building aspect too.
 
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Nick Lassard said:
DT, I just read your reply post.

I'll be Project Coordinator if we get a reasonable sample of talent.
Click to expand...

That's the first major thing done.

I would like to suggest that as a first thing that we get a place for the project home page and forum. I'm willing to host this and even get a domain name going. However, I'm not a web designer and can't make an attractive project page.

We might be better off using something like source forge to run the forums on for the publicity if nothing else.

Phase 1) is to to get to the "nice looking chatroom" in PM Grid
Click to expand...

Might I suggest the metaphore of a bar with several large tables so that the avatars can sir down and discuss things. Each table would be one group of chatters, with some table marked for permanent chats.

Actions like calling to another group could show one avatar standing up and actually shouting. A private call to another avatar coils have somebody pulling out their comm (cell phone like) and the other's comm ringing. Or a barmaid could pass a written note.

All of this, if it doesn't get in the way would serve to establish the mood.

Phase 2) is to build the first RP venues, including ships and world 'sets' in PM Grid
Phase 3) is to build the systems based on Traveller: commerce, combat. This will be a combination of programming and more probably scripting using Mono.
Phase 4) is starships. These will be both 'static' ships and hopefully as the tech improves mobile.
Click to expand...

One of the first written things should probably be a white paper and some preliminary specs. This would give a bit more structure to things.
 
If you have a space, and providing it's not going to cost me anything to visit it, I'd be happy, time permitting to model small items for you.
I've no time for 2nd Life's prim modelling system, but there is a Prim export script for Maya that would allow me to model and texture in a more comfortable and efficient environment.
I believe there's a cost involved in uploading prims, so I'd probably have to send it to an admin to upload.
It's just a shame they only use Colour maps and no Normal and Specular. :(

Crow
 
More to follow in an extended post in an hour or two.

Open Sim supports mesh upload. The Grid admin and I are on excellent terms and there is no cost. This will be a free project as far as you all are concerned.

What this means is that everything ever 3D modeled for Traveller can theoretically be uploaded as a mesh. That being said, if you want to walk in it that is a different story...it will have to be designed like that.

I am a mesh modeller to some degree, but I've not personally uploaded mesh into SL or OS. However, to those who are competent at mesh design you should be able to crack this nut and put the 3d content in.

I imagine this as a wide effort, but to begin with there will be a lot of figuring out to do.

For those of you who want to see where this will be, either generate an account on PM Grid or one in OS Grid. If OS Grid you'll need to use the hypergrid system to get to PM Grid. If you don't know what that means then its going to be some time to help you figure it out. Presently Romenna is sitting on the probably site of the build. Romenna currently covers 32 regions.
 
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Piper, those 3D models look very very good. I'd love to see them to scale in world. As far as fair use, I suppose it depends.

I have zero intentions of doing this for profit so the project shouldn't be a problem. As soon as it gets 'real' enough that its looking decent
I wish to invite Marc to have a look. I personally view it as an extension of CoTI and Traveller in general.
If someday it becomes something that people pay to play in some ways, its going to Marc not me.

The only reason I wish to do this is to fullful a dream to see Traveller depicted in a persistant, 3D fashion.


My initial thoughts are to set up a 'quad' of 'world's, 4 squares of 4 squares each on a single server, each representing either a world or a different part of a world.

My initial thoughts had been:

Regina: Luck Gibson Down and startown
TBD
TBD
TBD

Regions are small...only 800' across, so a 4x4 would be 1600'x1600' per 'world'. By nice stage backdropping and surroundings this can be made to look much larger, and frankly super large builds just dilute the RPers. Best to have a few places people congregate than a truly huge world...although that is what I'd like.

I have some maps I've done over the years and could pretty easily lay it out for Regina. The others would have to be by desire of the players. Once this starts please realize its an open project...ie people can import and add as they wish. I really don't have a problem with people creating but I do wish to keep a handle on the 'art'...creators in SL tend to spew out garbage vs. well-crafted products. We want this to look high-quality.

One thing that is important is to stimulate conflict. That means factions and probably the Zho if we're doing the Marches.

Thoughts?
 
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Nick Lassard said:
One thing that is important is to stimulate conflict. That means factions and probably the Zho if we're doing the Marches.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

SL has issues with performance of weapons, planes, basically everything faster than people. This modifies combat. Star Wars depends on light sabers in SL, right? That is a different animal. Since, you can outfly a bullet after 2 minutes.

I guess where I'm going with this is what is the performance improvements for OS?
 
Beggars can't be choosers, Savage.

Until better physics is implemented true virtual worlds (not optomized games) will be slow. It will eventually get there but not tomorrow.

OS has multiple physics engines, none of which I am expert in.

Expect a lot of talk and some fighting, but there will be limits.
 
Nick Lassard said:
Beggars can't be choosers, Savage.

Until better physics is implemented true virtual worlds (not optomized games) will be slow. It will eventually get there but not tomorrow.

OS has multiple physics engines, none of which I am expert in.

Expect a lot of talk and some fighting, but there will be limits.
Click to expand...

My point exactly, the question is what can be achieved?
 
savage said:
My point exactly, the question is what can be achieved?
Click to expand...

Based on my Second Life (SL) combat experiences (which are admittedly limited):
Huge variety of weaponry available, and making simple ones is easy. Weapons can do variable damage, damage based on ammunition types, selective rates of fire. Missile weapon combat is equivalent to an older generation of first-person shooter game: not cutting edge, but not too shabby. Melee combat isn't too bad, either. This is using readily available, free combat systems. Custom ones can be created to any degree of complexity and realism you like.

I have very little experience with vehicular combat and that's been limited to small flying vehicles essentially playing aerial paintball. There are large, sophisticated starships in SL that incorporate multiple crew positions, varied weapon types, screens and missiles. In my experience, large vehicles have unsatisfactory flight performance, but that's based on older, free scripts. New builds may be better performers.

The main limiting factor for any of this is scripting. The quality of the scripts controls almost every facet of combat.
 
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