Does anyone here use Linux? I am considering setting up an older computer on Linux to see how it works and will take any pointers you have to offer. The reason I am doing this is to see if it would be feasable to suggest that the county change it's school computers to Linux as a way to save money. They are really having a money crunch. I know Linux is free, but can we find the Linux based software we need to handle the schools' needs.
Any Linux users?
- Thread starter JAFARR
- Start date
Several issues with that, from a tech ed point of view.
1) Entry level Employers DO NOT want linux experience. They want Windows.
2) If they have OSX capable macs, Mac OS is unix based, and CAN run most linux software with a recompile.
2A) if they have windows ME or later, they are current enough for most entry level jobs.
3) Linux is generally NOT idiot proofed; even user accounts can often do damage to the install if the Admin doesn't know what he/she is doing.
3A) a lot of school admins don't know Linux.
3B) A lot of state standards require specific applications; some require specific OS's. (Yes, stupid, but them's the breaks.)
4) Educational purchase restrictions prevent a lot of the good "free to end user" software for Linux in lab applications; Educational and corporate use is often not $0 fee; often it's low, like $1 per student...
5) A lot of education machines (dell especially) don't have linux drivers for certain proprietary hardware.
1) Entry level Employers DO NOT want linux experience. They want Windows.
2) If they have OSX capable macs, Mac OS is unix based, and CAN run most linux software with a recompile.
2A) if they have windows ME or later, they are current enough for most entry level jobs.
3) Linux is generally NOT idiot proofed; even user accounts can often do damage to the install if the Admin doesn't know what he/she is doing.
3A) a lot of school admins don't know Linux.
3B) A lot of state standards require specific applications; some require specific OS's. (Yes, stupid, but them's the breaks.)
4) Educational purchase restrictions prevent a lot of the good "free to end user" software for Linux in lab applications; Educational and corporate use is often not $0 fee; often it's low, like $1 per student...
5) A lot of education machines (dell especially) don't have linux drivers for certain proprietary hardware.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
An alternative might be to look into SOLARIS (NOT!!! OpenSolaris) Same costs, same capabilities, more stability, easier handling and better entry-level documentation
There's after all only one Version of SOLARIS/10. And most of the critical stuff runs at least as good under it (StarOffice/OpenOffice, Apache stuff, mySQL, ORACLE) as under Linux. Often with less version/variant hassle since you don't have to check if a package is build for RedHat/SuSe/xBuntu.
There's after all only one Version of SOLARIS/10. And most of the critical stuff runs at least as good under it (StarOffice/OpenOffice, Apache stuff, mySQL, ORACLE) as under Linux. Often with less version/variant hassle since you don't have to check if a package is build for RedHat/SuSe/xBuntu.
saundby
SOC-14 1K
We use both OpenSolaris and Ubuntu in our school's computer lab. The students prefer Ubuntu, the more technical ones like working under OpenSolaris. The same machines all came with WinXP licenses, so that's on them, too (except for the Macs, which have both XP and OS X.)
To see what would work on our school's hardware, I made up a compatibility checklist and took a selection of LiveCDs to my high school class. I divided the disks up among my students then had them run the compatibility checks on each system in the lab. We posted the results to the Linux/free OS compatibility database. I also collected information on what the students' preferences were at the time, but what they actually choose to work under while completing class projects tells me more.
I save our school thousands each year by using free apps to supplement our commercial software. Even my 6th-8th grade students handle rebooting under whichever OS they need just fine. They have a harder time dealing with Google logins than rebooting under Ubuntu to use the GIMP or OpenOffice or whatever.
To see what would work on our school's hardware, I made up a compatibility checklist and took a selection of LiveCDs to my high school class. I divided the disks up among my students then had them run the compatibility checks on each system in the lab. We posted the results to the Linux/free OS compatibility database. I also collected information on what the students' preferences were at the time, but what they actually choose to work under while completing class projects tells me more.
I save our school thousands each year by using free apps to supplement our commercial software. Even my 6th-8th grade students handle rebooting under whichever OS they need just fine. They have a harder time dealing with Google logins than rebooting under Ubuntu to use the GIMP or OpenOffice or whatever.
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mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
JAFARR:
What programs do you need exactly? And what hardware are we talking about? A 2.4GHz Pentium IV with 1Gig is "old hardware" but runs just fine under most systems older than Vista. A 800MHz PIII is a totally different beast.
What can you get for reduced prices? Quite a few companies offer deals for schools/teachers.
What capabilities do you have "in house"? *NIX may be "for free" but if your System Operator is a Windows guy you're out of luck
What Infrastructure is set? Do you have some "must use" applications? And if yes, do they run under *NIX? And no, WABI/WINE is NOT an alternative
If it's "free programs" rather than "free operating system" you are looking for a switch might not be necessary. Most free tools exist in a Windows Version that runs at least as good as the *NIX versions, sometimes (JAVA based stuff) even better than under some *NIX variants (Linux is a "known bad" platform for JAVA)
What programs do you need exactly? And what hardware are we talking about? A 2.4GHz Pentium IV with 1Gig is "old hardware" but runs just fine under most systems older than Vista. A 800MHz PIII is a totally different beast.
What can you get for reduced prices? Quite a few companies offer deals for schools/teachers.
What capabilities do you have "in house"? *NIX may be "for free" but if your System Operator is a Windows guy you're out of luck
What Infrastructure is set? Do you have some "must use" applications? And if yes, do they run under *NIX? And no, WABI/WINE is NOT an alternative
If it's "free programs" rather than "free operating system" you are looking for a switch might not be necessary. Most free tools exist in a Windows Version that runs at least as good as the *NIX versions, sometimes (JAVA based stuff) even better than under some *NIX variants (Linux is a "known bad" platform for JAVA)
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For a computer LAB, Linux on older machines is cheap cheap cheap, and might be good -- depending.
But if you're talking about running a school's infrastructure, though, it seems to me that the real costs are recurring and administration-related, and therefore Windows is likely a better choice. And, as you hinted, the software might not be there for running a school on Linux.
And as Aramis said, non-techies who will have to deal with the system won't understand UNIX-like operating systems.
But if you're talking about running a school's infrastructure, though, it seems to me that the real costs are recurring and administration-related, and therefore Windows is likely a better choice. And, as you hinted, the software might not be there for running a school on Linux.
And as Aramis said, non-techies who will have to deal with the system won't understand UNIX-like operating systems.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
change = $
Unless it is a new or expanding school, the hardware, software, documentation, training, and personal expertise is already in place and, in general, change would incur a bigger cost than just leaving things as they are.
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Yeah. So are we talking about an extremely rural county which runs off of a handful (as in a half dozen) of PCs?
Depends. A lot of school software (especially educational programs) are leased by the year. Use past expiry is piracy. Much of it has moved to client-server models, as well, requiring very specific servers, and the servers have to license authorive via internet daily.
To answer some questions; this is what I know. Ours is a small school in a large county - area & population wise- for S.C. We had about 375 students. Most of the PCs are older Dell desktops and laptops. I don't recall models, but I think most are P IV under 2ghz and less than a half gig of ram. several that they use for the advanced reading testing are even older - P II @ 300mhz & 128 meg of ram. Everything is running XP Pro SP3, except 1 or 2 non school maintained setups the resource teacher salvaged for her kids to use for educational games. Some of those games are so old they will not run on XP. The lab has 30 machines and each classroom has 2 or 3 more. The libary/media center has a dozen more. Call it 100 machines in our school alone. Figure at least 2000 in the county if not in the 5000 range. That does not count the laptops. I know we have 4 rolling storage carts holding at least 20 units each for the laptops. That is a lot of license fees.
I don't even know what software they use besides MS Office. A lot of it is their own design, but I don't know if it is Office based or stand alone programs.
I don't even know what software they use besides MS Office. A lot of it is their own design, but I don't know if it is Office based or stand alone programs.
saundby
SOC-14 1K
I deal with the support issue in the lab by running the free OSes off of LiveCDs. It runs a bit slower, and you have to make sure work doesn't get saved to a RAM disk, but it gives some flexibility in programs without affecting the machines. It also allows me to run apps that won't fit on the hard disks of our older PCs. Most of them are tapped out with XP and Office, it's all I can do to squeeze in a JDK and a framework for my high school classes. No room for The GIMP, OpenOffice/StarOffice, Pencil, a MUD, educational games, etc.
It also allows me to try adding new apps to my curriculum without doing installs on all the systems, and run a section on OSes in my computer classes that lets the students get some hands-on time with a variety of different OSes so that they learn enough to avoid freezing up if they're faced with an OS that isn't Windows.
As to the front office systems, I don't touch them myself. I've got enough trouble already.
Our systems are mostly old Dell desktops with some white label boxes and Fujitsu laptops thrown in. We have a few Intel iMacs that boot into either XP or OS X. Any of the systems will run Ubuntu 8.04, it's the only LiveCD distro we tested last fall that would run on everything in the lab (though the sound doesn't work on the aluminum iMac.) I also use Edubuntu 7.10 on all the old PCs--it's the last version of Edubuntu that comes as a LiveCD, newer ones come as an add-on disk for Ubuntu, which is no use without an install.
OpenSolaris runs on the Macs and some of the PCs, the non-Dell ones.
Dragonfly BSD runs on most of the older PCs, same with Knoppix and DSL. Puppy, surprisingly, has a hard time with our older hardware.
Anyway, if used well and in the right places, free OSes can work well. I haven't seen any open software for administration along the lines of, say, PowerSchool, that I'd be willing to use. There are projects, but not much in the way of results that I've seen.
Still, if you can extend the utility of some current systems to help the school put off buying new hardware for a while (assuming that buying new hardware is even possible), the free stuff can do that in the classroom.
You might want to look at my blog at http://catsonkeyboards.blogspot.com/ for some of the experiences I've had with using free software in class. The "teaching" tags will pull the relevant articles.
Note: it will cost prep time and class time, especially at first. If you have access to any students to use as guinea pigs outside normal class times for trial runs, I recommend starting this way.
I showed some of the teachers how to use the LiveCDs, too, but it didn't catch on until some of my students showed them how to do it in their classes. Once they saw a non-"rocket scientist" do it, they decided it might be something they can do, too. But when it was me demonstrating it, they balked. This year I'm just going to have a student run the demo while I stand nearby.
It also allows me to try adding new apps to my curriculum without doing installs on all the systems, and run a section on OSes in my computer classes that lets the students get some hands-on time with a variety of different OSes so that they learn enough to avoid freezing up if they're faced with an OS that isn't Windows.
As to the front office systems, I don't touch them myself. I've got enough trouble already.
Our systems are mostly old Dell desktops with some white label boxes and Fujitsu laptops thrown in. We have a few Intel iMacs that boot into either XP or OS X. Any of the systems will run Ubuntu 8.04, it's the only LiveCD distro we tested last fall that would run on everything in the lab (though the sound doesn't work on the aluminum iMac.) I also use Edubuntu 7.10 on all the old PCs--it's the last version of Edubuntu that comes as a LiveCD, newer ones come as an add-on disk for Ubuntu, which is no use without an install.
OpenSolaris runs on the Macs and some of the PCs, the non-Dell ones.
Dragonfly BSD runs on most of the older PCs, same with Knoppix and DSL. Puppy, surprisingly, has a hard time with our older hardware.
Anyway, if used well and in the right places, free OSes can work well. I haven't seen any open software for administration along the lines of, say, PowerSchool, that I'd be willing to use. There are projects, but not much in the way of results that I've seen.
Still, if you can extend the utility of some current systems to help the school put off buying new hardware for a while (assuming that buying new hardware is even possible), the free stuff can do that in the classroom.
You might want to look at my blog at http://catsonkeyboards.blogspot.com/ for some of the experiences I've had with using free software in class. The "teaching" tags will pull the relevant articles.
Note: it will cost prep time and class time, especially at first. If you have access to any students to use as guinea pigs outside normal class times for trial runs, I recommend starting this way.
I showed some of the teachers how to use the LiveCDs, too, but it didn't catch on until some of my students showed them how to do it in their classes. Once they saw a non-"rocket scientist" do it, they decided it might be something they can do, too. But when it was me demonstrating it, they balked. This year I'm just going to have a student run the demo while I stand nearby.
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mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Okay, PIV/512MB should run fine under XP. Stick with it since you already payed the licence and it has some years of maintenance left.
Check if your special software is MS-Office based
If yes than check if
+ It uses Visual Basic for Applications (VBA)
+ It uses Access as a database or a frontend tool
+ It uses SQL-Server as a database
If any of the three is true, you are basically stuck with MS-Office since OpenOffice can not run VBA (and never will due to property rights) and can't run MS-Access reports and forms (again property rights). So unless you can re-program the solutions you are married to MS-Office at least for those boxes running it
Check if you use Outlook/Exchange
If you are using Outlook (not Outlook Express) for more tasks than a simple mail client you'll likely also use Exchange. Again you are basically married to the systems since getting the full power of the combination is only possible on a Windows System. Every other frontend, including the WebAccess component unless you use InternetExplorer and install the ActiveX-Components (That IIRC ONLY run in IE) will at best offer parts of the capabilities
And if you are using Exchange check if you use ActiveDirectory (The XP user/groups/permissions/network access system) If yes, your servers will be Microsoft unless you re-do every single user account since stuff like SAMBA still has problems properly integrating in and/or replacing it. If you use the older Domain-System (NT4/Windows 2000) than you can add/replace servers with *NIX using SAMBA 3 but it will still be quite a bit of work
If you offer programming check the manuals
While one can teach C++ programming under basically every platform more advanced than a Commodore PET many manuals and books actually teach MicroSoft C++ with all examples based around their (excellent) Visual Studio Integrated Development Environment (IDE). While there are IDEs that come close in capabilities they don't match the Look/Feel and therefor will invalidate the books/manuals
Worse if your Programming-101 is based on VisualBasic or Delphi Versions more modern than Delphi 7 (KyLix is a D7 that runs on some *NIX)
If you use Lab computers check for drivers
Some lab computers use special cards and those offer a limited driver support. MS-products (DOS, WinNT/2000/XP) and some UNIX (SCO, Solaris, HP-UX) are common, Linux due to it's eternally morphing kernel API is not
Check if your special software is MS-Office based
If yes than check if
+ It uses Visual Basic for Applications (VBA)
+ It uses Access as a database or a frontend tool
+ It uses SQL-Server as a database
If any of the three is true, you are basically stuck with MS-Office since OpenOffice can not run VBA (and never will due to property rights) and can't run MS-Access reports and forms (again property rights). So unless you can re-program the solutions you are married to MS-Office at least for those boxes running it
Check if you use Outlook/Exchange
If you are using Outlook (not Outlook Express) for more tasks than a simple mail client you'll likely also use Exchange. Again you are basically married to the systems since getting the full power of the combination is only possible on a Windows System. Every other frontend, including the WebAccess component unless you use InternetExplorer and install the ActiveX-Components (That IIRC ONLY run in IE) will at best offer parts of the capabilities
And if you are using Exchange check if you use ActiveDirectory (The XP user/groups/permissions/network access system) If yes, your servers will be Microsoft unless you re-do every single user account since stuff like SAMBA still has problems properly integrating in and/or replacing it. If you use the older Domain-System (NT4/Windows 2000) than you can add/replace servers with *NIX using SAMBA 3 but it will still be quite a bit of work
If you offer programming check the manuals
While one can teach C++ programming under basically every platform more advanced than a Commodore PET many manuals and books actually teach MicroSoft C++ with all examples based around their (excellent) Visual Studio Integrated Development Environment (IDE). While there are IDEs that come close in capabilities they don't match the Look/Feel and therefor will invalidate the books/manuals
Worse if your Programming-101 is based on VisualBasic or Delphi Versions more modern than Delphi 7 (KyLix is a D7 that runs on some *NIX)
If you use Lab computers check for drivers
Some lab computers use special cards and those offer a limited driver support. MS-products (DOS, WinNT/2000/XP) and some UNIX (SCO, Solaris, HP-UX) are common, Linux due to it's eternally morphing kernel API is not
Thanks for the input. I guess it is more complex than I thought. Maybe I will still try it just for my own understanding. I used to be in the Mac world, but switched due to cost and lack of Mac versions of the software I wanted to run. Haven't been there since Macs were running system 7 for the OS.
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Commander Truestar
SOC-13
Funny
I am a Unix admin for Medco and we are transitioning to a significant implementation of Linux. As a result, staff replacements show a preference for linux.
But we are just one(growing despite the recession, improving our income) employer. Obviously not the entire market.
Marc
Funny
I am a Unix admin for Medco and we are transitioning to a significant implementation of Linux. As a result, staff replacements show a preference for linux.
But we are just one(growing despite the recession, improving our income) employer. Obviously not the entire market.
Marc
Is that Medco an online/mail order pharmaceuticals house by chance?
Commander Truestar
SOC-13
we prefer to think of ourselves as taking over the world...
One prescription at a time >
Marc
One prescription at a time >
Marc
saundby
SOC-14 1K
In this area, the major employers are nearly all mixed OS shops. Several of them take that out of the data center to the desktop, they support OS X and Windows for individual non-IT employees. Line managers usually have the option to impose a choice on their department.
Web interfaces on many servers is loosening things up, as well as multiplatform clients. Citrix is far from great but it helps close the gap as well.
Data centers in this area are very mixed. Most local companies will choose the OS they feel best suits the specific server app for that box.
The desktop is still strongly dominated by Windows, no doubt about that, but OS X is appearing on normal workers' desks and Netbooks are bringing in a few Linux boxes (though most newer netbooks coming in are XP at present.)
I'd say that for our local Fortune 500 employers it's about 5% non-Windows on the desktop outside IT and graphic arts, and about 45-55% non-Windows in the data centers of same. This is being conservative on the side of Windows. Small businesses not in graphic design or retail are pretty well universally Windows, retail has about 10-15% non-Win in the office, they're running closed interface POS apps in most cases outside the office, usually on the same platform as the office system.
There's enough of a mix that I'd be doing my students a disservice if I didn't expose them to non-Win OSes at least enough to give them a feel for the slight differences of different OSes and horizontal apps to the user. It's also inoculation against Windows UI changes.
For home use, my students come in at 85% nothing but Windows at home, 5% mixed OS households, and 10% all Mac/no Windows households. All homes running a version Unix or Linux had at least one box regularly running Windows.
Half the OS X only households run MS Office on their Macs, 70% of households with Windows in them run MS Office, the rest run a mix of MS Works, Corel Office, or only use client apps like browsers and email programs.
Anyway, that's how the numbers look in this area (students are local to Sierra foothills, industry numbers are for greater Sacramento area.)
Web interfaces on many servers is loosening things up, as well as multiplatform clients. Citrix is far from great but it helps close the gap as well.
Data centers in this area are very mixed. Most local companies will choose the OS they feel best suits the specific server app for that box.
The desktop is still strongly dominated by Windows, no doubt about that, but OS X is appearing on normal workers' desks and Netbooks are bringing in a few Linux boxes (though most newer netbooks coming in are XP at present.)
I'd say that for our local Fortune 500 employers it's about 5% non-Windows on the desktop outside IT and graphic arts, and about 45-55% non-Windows in the data centers of same. This is being conservative on the side of Windows. Small businesses not in graphic design or retail are pretty well universally Windows, retail has about 10-15% non-Win in the office, they're running closed interface POS apps in most cases outside the office, usually on the same platform as the office system.
There's enough of a mix that I'd be doing my students a disservice if I didn't expose them to non-Win OSes at least enough to give them a feel for the slight differences of different OSes and horizontal apps to the user. It's also inoculation against Windows UI changes.
For home use, my students come in at 85% nothing but Windows at home, 5% mixed OS households, and 10% all Mac/no Windows households. All homes running a version Unix or Linux had at least one box regularly running Windows.
Half the OS X only households run MS Office on their Macs, 70% of households with Windows in them run MS Office, the rest run a mix of MS Works, Corel Office, or only use client apps like browsers and email programs.
Anyway, that's how the numbers look in this area (students are local to Sierra foothills, industry numbers are for greater Sacramento area.)
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
From my experience:
+ Desktop systems where mostly Windows, partially due to legacy applications and partially due to established structures
+ Servers in the larger companies had a tendency to be SOLARIS Boxes (Sparcs for Production, Intel for testing) with some companies running a "pure" Windows Environment(1). IBM Midrange and Mainframe systems running some specialised software and/or database stuff (But NOT acting as fileservers) exist
+ Small companies (<= 100 Employees) relied more on Windows Servers and the occasional Windows Workstation (ab)used as a server
+ Only times I have seen official Macs where in a printing/publishing company and then only for special uses, most systems again where Windows
+ XP on Netbooks has all the problems of Linux on "whatever" (Missing/not fully functional drivers, problems with kernel changes after a patch is applied etc) with an even smaller support base (smaller numbers sold, most customers use the Windows version) Manufacturers prefer the XP version due to easier support too
+ Teaching students some UNIX isn't a bad idea. I do recommend SOLARIS for it's easier access to a matching and working manual(2) and the rather lengthy compatibility lists. Oh and don't switch on X if you want to teach UNIX, the differences in UNIX are below the GUI system
(1) Mostly those companies with little database needs, using the servers primarily for authentification and file/print services
(2) Just grab ANY manual labeled Solaris/<Major version you installed> and it will be a match
+ Desktop systems where mostly Windows, partially due to legacy applications and partially due to established structures
+ Servers in the larger companies had a tendency to be SOLARIS Boxes (Sparcs for Production, Intel for testing) with some companies running a "pure" Windows Environment(1). IBM Midrange and Mainframe systems running some specialised software and/or database stuff (But NOT acting as fileservers) exist
+ Small companies (<= 100 Employees) relied more on Windows Servers and the occasional Windows Workstation (ab)used as a server
+ Only times I have seen official Macs where in a printing/publishing company and then only for special uses, most systems again where Windows
+ XP on Netbooks has all the problems of Linux on "whatever" (Missing/not fully functional drivers, problems with kernel changes after a patch is applied etc) with an even smaller support base (smaller numbers sold, most customers use the Windows version) Manufacturers prefer the XP version due to easier support too
+ Teaching students some UNIX isn't a bad idea. I do recommend SOLARIS for it's easier access to a matching and working manual(2) and the rather lengthy compatibility lists. Oh and don't switch on X if you want to teach UNIX, the differences in UNIX are below the GUI system
(1) Mostly those companies with little database needs, using the servers primarily for authentification and file/print services
(2) Just grab ANY manual labeled Solaris/<Major version you installed> and it will be a match
