Aslan Border Wars
- Thread starter jec10
- Start date
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
roughly, I'd say about max of 10, maybe 11, but mostly 9 and lower.
the border wars raged on and off for over a thousand years, so it's rather hard to make sweeping statements about what was available. however, I'd say most jump capable nations were only just about jump capable. a lot of worlds lost the skills and knowledge to make jump drives in the Long Night, and the few that kept them could only support a handful. small ships, too. I don't see any of the pocket empires being really able to pump out capital ships.
this would be a setting were a few dozen troops with ACRs and combat armour left over form the Rule of Man would be a Big Thing.
the border wars raged on and off for over a thousand years, so it's rather hard to make sweeping statements about what was available. however, I'd say most jump capable nations were only just about jump capable. a lot of worlds lost the skills and knowledge to make jump drives in the Long Night, and the few that kept them could only support a handful. small ships, too. I don't see any of the pocket empires being really able to pump out capital ships.
this would be a setting were a few dozen troops with ACRs and combat armour left over form the Rule of Man would be a Big Thing.
I think a range from 9 to 12 among the starfaring nations. Despite the fact that the two pocket empires we know about (Vland and Sylea) regressed technologically during the Long Night (and then recovered), there's really no plausible reason why any pocket empire would lose just one or two tech levels. Lose a lot of tech levels to barbarians, either internal or external, sure. But just slip from 12 to 9 when the Long Night "fell"? Implausible. And then not recover over the next millenium and a half? Also implausible.
Lose the infrastructure completely if they stopped making ships altogether, yes. Lose it if they continued to build starships, like Terra and Dingir and Vega and Easter? No. Lose the knowledge even if they stopped building ships altogether? No. That would be kept in libraries (not to mention deliberate knowledge depositories), ready to be recovered when the time was right. Lose the rest of the TL12 manufacturing capacity, the non-starship stuff? Why would anyone do that?
Terra has billions of inhabitants during the Long Night. The other pocket empire backbone worlds presumably likewise. They'd be perfectly capable of building many dT of warships. And if they happen to be located right next door to a rival pocket empire (like Terra and Dingir) they would have the usual belligerent reasons to do so.
Hans
Aslan clans could be anywhere from TL9 to TL12 (for the big clans). Major issue for the aslan is their clan nature - no high level command and control between clans so humans only have to face a clan or two at a time + clan still has to defend its territories from other aslan clans.
Aslans also do short wars to grab some land and relive the pressure from 2nd sons, and then spend time consolidating before the next expansion - limited wars.
Human side - misc independent worlds anywhere from TL0 to TL9 or 10 with some possible loving cared for relics which can't be repaired.
When the 3rd Imperium arrives at the end of the border wars expect TL12 to TL13 equipment on a large scale.
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As for Ranke's knowledge issue 3 things
a library is no good if you can't access the data - no good having a library on CD if all your CD players have failed in the 1750 years of the long night. + random disasters like fire / pirate raids / earthquakes destoying stuff.
book knowledge is one thing but I would like my damage control crews to have experience
Mosts worlds with small populatiosn will have limited practical industrial bases which will have been divereted to immediate requirements during the long night.
Aslans also do short wars to grab some land and relive the pressure from 2nd sons, and then spend time consolidating before the next expansion - limited wars.
Human side - misc independent worlds anywhere from TL0 to TL9 or 10 with some possible loving cared for relics which can't be repaired.
When the 3rd Imperium arrives at the end of the border wars expect TL12 to TL13 equipment on a large scale.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
As for Ranke's knowledge issue 3 things
a library is no good if you can't access the data - no good having a library on CD if all your CD players have failed in the 1750 years of the long night. + random disasters like fire / pirate raids / earthquakes destoying stuff.
book knowledge is one thing but I would like my damage control crews to have experience
Mosts worlds with small populatiosn will have limited practical industrial bases which will have been divereted to immediate requirements during the long night.
That assumes that the backbone worlds of pocket empires can't access the data, an IMO quite untenable assumption. And lets not forget that knowledge depositories are often set up with the possible decivilization of future generations in mind and so include low-tech texts.
And when a world regains a technology, people get experience with the regained technology in a few years. 1500 years is quite long enough for that to have happened on a number of worlds. Of course, since many pocket empires have backbone worlds that had no reason to lose their technology in the first place, the point is often moot.Book knowledge is one thing but I would like my damage control crews to have experience
And such worlds won't become backbone worlds of pocket empires. Terra, Dingir, Easter, Vega... all were presumably high-population worlds before the Long Night.
Hans
but most of the worlds in the LN were at that time, culturally, Vilani worlds, still dealing with the collapse of their old 'system' - they lost much of their self-sufficiency base as old Vilani industrial planning collapsed under Terran free trade. RoM had no idea how to run an interstellar economy, likely allowing the de-skilling of whole worlds over a few generations and forcing specialization into resource extraction as their primary produce, rendering whole sub-sectors dependent on the industrial production of one or two "rich" high-tech worlds. Populations likely dwindled on the "lesser" planets. Many, 50% or more were low-population planets with a focus only on resource extraction. Probably no more than a handful of persons with active scientific training, and no way to start an effective academy. As things got less and less integrated, raiding and brush wars broke out, starships were seized, and often crews killed. Eventually the whole civilization infrastructure collapsed in slow motion, except on a handful of worlds, each with significant economic problems of their own, their whole customer base has dried up and there's no more subsidization from outside. The nearest other world with the pop to maintain high tech would often be many jumps away. and the dying worlds would for many years still have had system ships and try to seize passing starships at gas giants. Very dangerous.
So I think the LN scenario is actually very realistic.
So I think the LN scenario is actually very realistic.
Terra started out as not Vilani. Dingir probably converted culturally from Vilani culture to Terran in a generation or two -- certainly long before the fall of the Rule of Man. Something similar seems to have happened on Easter. Vega wasn't Terran, but neither was it Vilani. The worlds that supported pocket empires in Alpha Crucis, Dark Nebula, Magyar and Reavers' Deep were most likely mainly Terran settlements.
The Terran Mercantile Community kept trade going in most of the Solomani Rim for centuries after the so-called fall of the Long Night. It then retrenched and became the Old Earth Union, which kept up trade within the Union until it joined the Imperium in 588. Dingir, Easter and Vega kept up their own pocket empires after the dissolution of the TMC. The Old Earth Union and the Dingir League had some wars, so they'd be extremely motivated not to lose TL12 starship and weapons technology.
Hans
well yeah, I did say "most" ;-) Presumably Terra didn't found the 3rd I because they were tied up messing with Aslan and nearby Pocket Empires, and perhaps some reticence to bite off more than they could chew given the slow collapse of the RoM. but no doubt to some extent, fear of the LN is "played up a bit" by the 3rd Imperium. Our own "dark ages" weren't all that dark in some places too.
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
i think it might also be worth noting that we are not, in this case, interested in the state of core worlds like terra, but more interested in the state of the worlds near the aslan border, those involved in the Border wars. any major worlds in that area would be a lot less "major" compared to terra or Vland.
The Old Earth Union was a major player in the Aslan Border Wars.
(And while that doesn't prove that they weren't limited to jump-2, it is likelier that they would be involved in conflicts that far from home if they had access jump-3.)
Hans
GrayPennell
SOC-12
I think there is so little known about the Long Night that we cannot be sure of what was going on about the lesser worlds whether Aslan or non Aslan. So I ll make the suggestion. roll 1d6 for each world at set up. 1=less than tech level 8, 2-TL 8 3-TL9 4-TL 10 5-TL 11 6-TL 12. This adds ton or "replay" into your war game. If you want to build on the impact of trade you might add 1 for each TL 10+ world near by. These groupings would be seeds of alliances, clans, pocket empires etc
Well, we can be reasonably sure that none of them had TL13.
But I agree that TL12 ought to be rare and restricted to select pocket empires.
Hans
