Astrogation, knowing where you are, astronomy, travel maps: Important questions

[sporegnosis]

I could also think of at least 10 other ways of finding you position in a galaxy, since astronomy is a hobby of mine, but that doesn't solve the gap in the rules.

afaik the referee can come up with any solution he wants and thats ok provided everyone agrees on that before a game crisis emerges. Telling the party that they can't find their way because of x and y despite the fact that in the players mind this had been taken care of before they left the first starport 10 sessions ago is extremely frustrating to say the least.

All of our furstration and arguing would go away if the rules covered ACS stellar mapping in *any* detail.

I have no qualms about the common plot theme of being lost, but being blind is another thing entirely.

Given the enormous detail of the T5 book there are 3 scenarios:

1. It's so obviously impossible to get lost that it's not even mentioned in the book.

2. since a TL-15 civ has done hundreds of surveys over the years, all ships have complete "light" galactic travel maps and "local" astronomy is obsolete.

3. They forgot to cover this in the rules by accident.

 

[HG_B]

I
Given the enormous detail of the T5 book there are 3 scenarios:

1. It's so obviously impossible to get lost that it's not even mentioned in the book.

Given the technology available + thousands of years using starships, I go with #1

 

[Bloo]

Jump tapes are still in. check page 623.

Oy vey.

 

[Reban]

This is a common topic, crops up every five or so years.

Consider that the Hubble is probably not a combat sensor. Put another way: consider that the sensor rules are primarily, or even exclusively, for the purposes of space combat. If the sensors are available and working, then I assume an easier mechanic could be used for non-combat use; a simple Astrogation task check, for example? But I'm sure a determined referee could think up all sorts of ways of making it work.

I'm surprised no one mentioned it yet but there's a TL5 Telescope on p.616 in the Equipment chapter. Its rules mechanic is that it decreases apparent distance to target by 2 range bands.

I'd agree with Robject that using sensors for astronomy is different to obtaining a sensor lock for combat purposes. Rather that resolving as much detail as possible from the radiated and reflected energy of a ship or moonlet sized object you are gathering the radiated energy of a star. You can spend a lot more time processing the signal data than you can afford to for combat.

If there is truly nothing recognizable in the night sky (tech dependent) when you step through that portal, then maybe you've stepped into another universe.

 

[esampson]

...If there is truly nothing recognizable in the night sky (tech dependent) when you step through that portal, then maybe you've stepped into another universe.

Or you've jumped more than 300 parsecs. A lot more than 300 parsecs.

 

[HG_B]

Or you've jumped more than 300 parsecs. A lot more than 300 parsecs.

Yep. The Milky Way is ~36,810 parsecs in diameter. 300 parsecs is less than 1% across it. All your major stars would be visible and locating your position, trivial.

 

[sporegnosis]

I'm surprised no one mentioned it yet but there's a TL5 Telescope on p.616 in the Equipment chapter. Its rules mechanic is that it decreases apparent distance to target by 2 range bands.

I'd agree with Robject that using sensors for astronomy is different to obtaining a sensor lock for combat purposes. Rather that resolving as much detail as possible from the radiated and reflected energy of a ship or moonlet sized object you are gathering the radiated energy of a star. You can spend a lot more time processing the signal data than you can afford to for combat.

If there is truly nothing recognizable in the night sky (tech dependent) when you step through that portal, then maybe you've stepped into another universe.

Ok you're in another universe or galaxy. How do you conduct sector/subsector survey?

If there are no mechanics to check systems from afar, you're left with visiting each system.

unless the referee allows you to scoop fuel directly from stars (and not burn up), you better come prepared with a collector.

Can you astrogate a jump into an empty hex?

what if you need a jump 5 or 6 after a mishap? game over?!

 

[HG_B]

Can you astrogate a jump into an empty hex?

Sure, why couldn't you? You ALWAYS jump into empty space.

 

[sporegnosis]

Sure, why couldn't you? You ALWAYS jump into empty space.

p.371

the astrogator can select a specific destination based on one of several different principles:

1. central star
2. main world
3. some other world/body
4. range band from a world
5. a specific star orbit (i.e a "rangeband" from a star)

there's no "empty space" triangulation principle. It would imply that jump drive navigation requires some body of mass to lock on as a destination somehow.

 

[HG_B]

p.371

the astrogator can select a specific destination based on one of several different principles:

1. central star
2. main world
3. some other world/body
4. range band from a world
5. a specific star orbit (i.e a "rangeband" from a star)

there's no "empty space" triangulation principle. It would imply that jump drive navigation requires some body of mass to lock on as a destination somehow.

Thanks. Didn't see that. Another T5 rule screw up. :nonono:

 

[esampson]

p.371

the astrogator can select a specific destination based on one of several different principles:

1. central star
2. main world
3. some other world/body
4. range band from a world
5. a specific star orbit (i.e a "rangeband" from a star)

there's no "empty space" triangulation principle. It would imply that jump drive navigation requires some body of mass to lock on as a destination somehow.

I think you're reading too much into it. All the book really means are 'these are the standard operations'. After all, even an empty parsec is going to be some kind of rangeband from a star.

 

[sporegnosis]

I think you're reading too much into it. All the book really means are 'these are the standard operations'. After all, even an empty parsec is going to be some kind of rangeband from a star.

no, on page 373 under scatter, the method of "planning" the jump exit point, affects scatter.

 

[SanDragon]

Then how did jump way stations in formerly empty hexes come to be?

 

[sporegnosis]

Then how did jump way stations in formerly empty hexes come to be?

jump way stations? are they included in T5? haven't come across them.

 

[HG_B]

jump way stations? are they included in T5? haven't come across them.

Unless 3I setting was rewritten by T5, Reft Sector...

 

[aramis]

Can you astrogate a jump into an empty hex?

Prior Art:

CT: explicit in The Traveller Adventure
MT: not covered
TNE: Implicit by rules for Calibration Points
T4: Not covered to my knowledge, but I don't have everything
T20: not covered, but Hunter agreed it was doable but disagreed that it needed a rule
GT: not covered
GTIW: explicitly disallowed
MGT: Aramis - The Traveller Adventure specifically allows it.
​

Preponderance: it should be.

 

[sporegnosis]

Prior Art:

CT: explicit in The Traveller Adventure
MT: not covered
TNE: Implicit by rules for Calibration Points
T4: Not covered to my knowledge, but I don't have everything
T20: not covered, but Hunter agreed it was doable but disagreed that it needed a rule
GT: not covered
GTIW: explicitly disallowed
MGT: Aramis - The Traveller Adventure specifically allows it.
​

Preponderance: it should be.

Can anyone ask Mark for a clarification on this for T5?

 

[rancke]

Note that GTIW specifically disallows it for its era. There is canon to indicate that people figured out how to do it during the later part of the Long Night. So GTIW doesn't really disallow jumps into empty space for eras later than that.


Hans

 

[sporegnosis]

How is it that so important mechanics/rules are not set into stone right there in the rulebook?

is it a feature or just omission?

The game designer in me wants to blow his head off....

 

[aramis]

How is it that so important mechanics/rules are not set into stone right there in the rulebook?

is it a feature or just omission?

The game designer in me wants to blow his head off....

I think it's really just an omission... Tho' a great many interpret a lack of canonical statement as a denial.