AutoPistol in a Vacuum...

[Icosahedron]

Assuming I have a TL7 (arguably TL5 ) M9 Berretta* . It's been in deep space for a week ("for a significant period of time"). (I'm assuming that's long enough to get down to about 20 K.) I fire it, without warming it up from about 20 K. Does the chamber shatter?

Or does the bullet jam (or rattle) in the barrel? Or does the steel slide jam on the aluminium body? Or does condensation/oil freeze and jam the firing pin? What does 20K do to standard lubricants from the gunsmith/cycle shop?

Heated holster, anyone?

Of course, we're now talking about the effects of low temp rather than the effects of vacuum - we seem to have settled that vacuum alone will have little effect.

 

[Patron Zero]

Perhaps already discussed-debated in a different thread but would not a gyro-jet pistol operate best in a vacuum-zero G environment than a standard cartridge operated firearm ?

 

[sabredog]

Maybe, but that's just a snub pistol...real Travellers use big bore autopistols in each hand whilst flying through vacuum from one airlock to the other. Snub pistols make too much sense.

Like laser pistols.

Or pistols with no moving parts, like gauss pistols.

 

[far-trader]

...Or pistols with no moving parts, like gauss pistols.

Not quite true. There is a moving part, the round down the barrel. And in some designs the tolerance is as tight or tighter than some conventional powder firearms. I suspect there might be some heating involved too, just from the extremely high energy put into the magnets or whatever mechanics are used to propel the round.

Oh, and it has recoil too.

Lasers are the way to go for zero-g vacuum weapons, mounted on the heads of uplifted battle-dress wearing sharks :devil:

 

[sabredog]

Don't forget the trigger would move, too. But I doubt the tolerance on a railgun is that tight - not only would the round have to "float" down the barrel because the maglev technology wouldn't rely on trapped propellant gases...but spin would be imparted by built in bias in the magnets rather than lands and grooves. No headspacing worries, either.

Oh, maybe the spring and follower pushing the rounds up the mag into the chamber would move, too.

Not being argumentative, just - well, ok...just being pedantic.:devil:

 

[far-trader]

All good points. You know I'd never really thought about the gauss magazine feed issue o:

The trigger too, I mean I knew it would probably be an electric switch and sealed and all but I suppose it might be a moving part. I'd kind of imagined a solid state pressure type switch. Now you've got me wondering about the safety and fire selector too. Again I'd long figured computer and digital, but it's hard to beat mechanical for reliability and it wouldn't be susceptible to electrical interference, hacking, viruses, dead batteries, etc

 

[sabredog]

Speaking from professional experience I faaaaar prefer mechanical over hi-tech gee-whiz electronics when it comes to my firearms. I want it work when I pull the trigger, and maybe even more importantly, I want to be able to get it work fast if there's a malfunction.

My Glock goes "click" it's just tap-rack-and go, but what do you do if your gauss pistol just goes 'bzzz' and nothing comes out? Shake it? Smack it against your helmet? Do I need Electronic-1 or better to do a malfunction drill to get the dang thing to work, or will my Handgun-1 be enough? You could just change mags I suppose, but what it you don't have another mag? You can't even strip the ammo and manually use it in a desperate situation.

Lasers are cool, and FGMP's are just awesome, but when it comes to personal defense sometimes low-tech mechanics work best.

Just as an historical aside on hi-tech hi-tolerance vs. low-tech loose-tolerance the advanced German panzers had a lot of trouble functioning at all in the mud and winter during the Russian campaign. The looser tolerances in the manufacturing and design of the Russian T-34 series (and the KV's) made it possible to operate their tanks under all conditions. Sure the Russian tanks were what you'd call purpose-built for the terrain and weather, but that just proves my point about Traveller firearms in space: since it is pre-supposed that people would be using them in all types of atmospheres (or lack) and conditions, it's logical that the manufacturers would take this into account when designing their guns, CPR or other. Just like the Soviets did and the Germans didn't.

 

[aramis]

Sabredog: That's not a safe presupposition at all.The vast majority of firearms will be used on the world of sale, never going anywhere. Just like people.

 

[sabredog]

Sabredog: That's not a safe presupposition at all.The vast majority of firearms will be used on the world of sale, never going anywhere. Just like people.

Of course it is, naturally the "Saturday Night Specials" and locally produced guns will be around, but I make certain assumptions about the Traveller universe and the people that live in a society with interstellar travel being a norm as opposed to an exception.

First, I assume that the player characters (and equivalent NPC’s) are extraordinary types who know what they are doing when buying weapons. Therefore if there is a choice between a CPR gun brand that is “vacuum compatible and guaranteed to fire in all environments” and one that isn’t made that way, the PC (or NPC) will be smart enough to buy the right one if he plans to crew a spaceship.

Second, because Traveller presupposes shootouts in spaceships and worlds with various atmospheres I assume that there are weapons made to operate in such conditions and that it doesn’t require the kind of micromanagement that I see too often in fantasy games that kills the fun. Like, “Gee, sorry player but you didn’t say you pulled out your sword when the troll charged you so the troll gets a free hit.” I assume the PC’s know what they are doing when operating within certain common sense parameters – especially when they have skill levels in the weapons they carry.

Heck, even before becoming a firearms instructor for my LE agency I knew enough about guns to tell the difference between crap and quality….and that if someone pulled a weapon on me I’d get mine out PDQ and blast them with it. So, I figure the skill of say, Handgun, comes with more than just knowing how to shoot it and clean it, but also which kind is best for what…how to do various malfunction drills in combat…etc. If I feel the need at the time I can even make the player roll against the skill for those things (like clearing jams in the heat of battle).

Third, IMTU (but naturally not in everyone’s) interstellar travel is important and common enough that among the civilized worlds of the Terran Empire one world is pretty much like the other in terms of goods and services. At least when it comes to things the average PC needs for himself outside of speculating for profit. So I figure among those worlds a gun is a gun, and they all pretty much come from the same companies (just like today), and they all manufacture at least one line of weaponry that works in all conditions because a lot of their marketing starts at either the sporting level, or the military/LE level. So that sidearm good enough for the Imperial Line Marine (IMTU that’s either the ACP-5/7 (equivalent to today’s FN Five Seven) or a straight Sternmetal .54 Tannhauser) is also good enough for a civilian spacer, cuz a Line Marine’s pistol is expected to work in any condition. Stermetal’s ad tag is, “The fight’s over when the Tannhauser sings!”

Now out on the rim, outside the Imperial borders the local manufacturing is more, well, localized. High quality guns are not always available – at least at a good rate, but that means really only two things IMTU: 1) the TL of the weapon might only translate to higher maintenance and more chances of malfunctions when abusing it (which can mean a lot of different things – and yeah, one of those might be using it in vacuum), 2) higher TL gun-running is profit just begging to be made for enterprising PC’s who only want to help those poor under-armed colonists looking for guns that work all the time, every time so they can hold off the hordes of howling neobarbarians and bug-eyed monsters.

Fourth, a caveat – IMTU because anyone who has played in it gets to experience all the unique thrills and challenges of zero-gee combat when blasting away with Tannhausers and the like (this is because SOP in space is to turn off the grav plates when entering combat or getting boarded), players quickly switch to laser and gauss pistols for that sort of thing. Or at least the 10mm autosnub pistol with HEAP rounds.

 

[Jame]

According to one member of our group, who goes to MIT (note well that this member is a biologist, but still), handgun ammo contains its own oxidizer. As far as I'm concerned, and when next we meet I will suggest this, this includes caseless and binary propellant weapons in addition to brass-casing weapons.

 

[aramis]

Jame:
I've seen gunpowder cooked off in an anoxic container. (match wouldn't burn within. gunpowder would.)

 

[far-trader]

Yep, no argument there, many chemical propellants will burn (bullets will fire) in vacuum or underwater (in the absence of free oxygen) because they contain their own oxidizer. The question is more about what happens next and a little bit about how well sealed the round has to be to resist degradation under long term exposure to vacuum and water. I seem to recall gunpowder will lose a little potency even just under normal storage but haven't gone digging for facts.

 

[sabredog]

Since vacuum is vacuum then maybe the slight loss of power wouldn't matter that much? Anyway, I'd bet the the first serious hole in the target's suit under such conditions would settle the issue fairly quickly. Self-sealing or no, I'd have my character seeking more effective cover after that, as well as scrabbling for a patch.

Which is another reason why my preferred weapon in vacuum would be a shotgun or automatic weapon. The more holes the merrier and let a blowout settle the issue.

 

[Jame]

Jame:
I've seen gunpowder cooked off in an anoxic container. (match wouldn't burn within. gunpowder would.)

Isn't that what I said?

... Oh wait, it means you agree with me!

 

[samuelvss]

Of course it is, naturally the "Saturday Night Specials" and locally produced guns will be around, but I make certain assumptions about the Traveller universe and the people that live in a society with interstellar travel being a norm as opposed to an exception.
...
First, I assume that the player characters (and equivalent NPC’s) are extraordinary types who know what they are doing when buying weapons. Therefore if there is a choice between a CPR gun brand that is “vacuum compatible and guaranteed to fire in all environments” and one that isn’t made that way, the PC (or NPC) will be smart enough to buy the right one if he plans to crew a spaceship.
....
Now out on the rim, outside the Imperial borders the local manufacturing is more, well, localized. High quality guns are not always available

A couple of issues. The Imperium contains many low-tech worlds. Their firearms will typically not be what is shipped in interstellar commerce, but it is perfectly concievable that one may find its way there. Characters may not be, in fact, space-faring as a normal matter. Someone with Shotgun-2 from a TL-4 wet navy may not have a great idea of what 20 deg K does to the shotgun he mustered out with. If we are talking player characters without weapons skills, then in CT they all have -0 in every weapon (this makes more sense when playing just LBB1/4 characters), but I don't think -0 would necessarily give one all the insights here. Thinking barbarians in particular....

Keep in mind, however, we are not just talking about player characters. What about the NPC's along the way. Maybe all players will know what to buy, given the choice, but having some interesting incidents involving the "Marines" that a TL4 world has just trained is good stuff. What makes for high adventure is often the interplay of the different tech levels.

"Your laser rifle is destroyed, the orbit is decaying, but you look into the destroyed compartment and there float five bodies in the uniforms of what appear to poni cavalry, their Sam Browne belts cracked from the cold. One has his pistol drawn in his frozen hand."

 

[Palidian]

I'll chime in here since I deal with these things in RL.

First, all gun propellants from any era work in vacuum. Slow match would work differently without air, it'd likely last longer. A lack of gravity to keep powder in the pan of a flintlock is the biggest problem I could see with any firearm type. Cap and ball would work fine. In free fall non cartridge firearms wouldn't have gravity to help with loading.

Space doesn't require exotic lubricants. Vacuum welding is a myth, events blamed on it early in Ranger and other such programs were actually insufficient lubrication, thermal binding, and so on.

Other effects aren't that bad, and unless you're looking at long cold soaks you don't need to worry about temperature. If you're going to be cold for a while, use no lubricant on the auto pistol.

20 degrees K would be a problem if you're submerged in cryo fluid or something like, but typically temp will be a problem for a suited user before the gun. If you light off a round in cryo fluid be prepared for plenty of gas expansion, the waste heats' going to put plenty of it through phase change. But the question was about vacuum.

The cold of space is a matter of radiation, not conduction or convection of the heat. So your gun won't stop working because you take it out the airlock. If you have a full auto firearm it'll not cool as efficiently than in the atmosphere if it relies on air cooling. So it'll overheat faster, and take longer to cool again.

Many polymers don't stand up well to space. Covering the polymer with some metal tape is an easy quick-fix. I doubt a Glock would have any problems with brief exposure, though. LDPE and MDPE is what I'm used to the problems being with, for the most part.

Anyway, your garden-variety firearm works fine in vacuum. If you're going to hang out there for some time, shoot the gun dry and deal with the wear or use a good low-temp non-petroleum grease. Silicon, TFE or graphite, perhaps.

I think I'd pick shooting dry on a gun with a steel slide and aluminum receiver by choice, but lots of commonly available things would work. You can get your grease at the bicycle shop when you're dirtside if there's no gun shop handy.

This is correct, gunpowder has its own O2 supply so it will still ignite.

 

[sabredog]

A couple of issues. The Imperium contains many low-tech worlds. Their firearms will typically not be what is shipped in interstellar commerce, but it is perfectly concievable that one may find its way there. Characters may not be, in fact, space-faring as a normal matter. Someone with Shotgun-2 from a TL-4 wet navy may not have a great idea of what 20 deg K does to the shotgun he mustered out with. If we are talking player characters without weapons skills, then in CT they all have -0 in every weapon (this makes more sense when playing just LBB1/4 characters), but I don't think -0 would necessarily give one all the insights here. Thinking barbarians in particular....

Keep in mind, however, we are not just talking about player characters. What about the NPC's along the way. Maybe all players will know what to buy, given the choice, but having some interesting incidents involving the "Marines" that a TL4 world has just trained is good stuff. What makes for high adventure is often the interplay of the different tech levels.

I see and agree with what you are saying, but I sure would hope somebody'd tell the poor guy with the musket that he'll have a hard time pouring the powder down the muzzle in space, let alone keeping it in the pan!

When we have (and its rare, I admit) had players who insist on running low-tech characters for some reason or another the other players have always been quick to take away their crossbows and other goofiness and shown them the wonders of modern weapons.

It usually goes something like this: "Yes, yes, John...you can roll up a barbarian. And, yes he can use a back sword and cap-lock horse pistol."

Then the other players say: "Oh for God's sake, why don't you ever roll up someone with useful skills and knows how to use an indoor toilet? Here, at least take my autopistol so you don't get me killed cuz it takes two rounds for you to load that stupid thing."