Balanced Parties, Thoughts and Suggestions

[TKalbfus]

In addition, there is a metagaming issue. It is all fine and good to talk about T20 being a "game of ideas", but realistically and in character why would a Barbarian with a Wisdom and Charisma of 8 and no ranks in Diplomacy come up with the best way to handle a diplomatic situation? If you discount mechanical differences in level and skills, then you encourage this sort of metagaming.

-Polaris

The barbarian could be right though, the diplomat could simply be playing for time with no serious attempt at negotiation. Perhaps the best way to resolve this situation is for the barbarian to attack the diplomat. Sometimes diplomacy simply goes nowhere. Another famous barbarian, Alexander the great cleaved the famous Gordion knot with his sword as his preffered method for untying it.

 

[tjoneslo]

Originally posted by Polaris:
Since your players all wound up in the 5-7th level range, of course you wouldn't have a problem with balance in that game. I note, however, that you went out of your way not to point out the Vilani age advantage to your players. That, to me at least, indicates a problem.

Counter-example time: During the playtest of the T20 book, I ran a campaign with 6 players. Character levels were between 7th and 17th. The 17th level character was a high vilani, 10 terms in the Imperial Marines, natural talent PSI, mustered out as a General and a Count. Is this an example of what you fear can happen?

While my players noted the differences in levels, once we began play, it quickly became apparent to all the high level character was not the god-like being one would expect from D20. While he was good in combat, none of the rest of the characters had chosen careers which maximised combat efficiency. And, while skilled in many things, could not compete with the other characters in their specialized areas. So he became the group thug. And being the munchkin, noted how deadly the T20 combat system was, and became the person mostly likey to advocate a peaceful solution to problems rather than combat.

So while on inital contact, the "Hey, that's not fair" was heard, by the end of the first session I never heard another complaint.

 

[Polaris]

tjoneslo,

This is an example of what could happen, and the shouts of "that's not fair" can easily become a cancer that destroys a group. I have seen it.

As for power, I would suggest that your "munchkin" concentrated in the wrong area for T-20. The level imbalance is really and egregiously noticable when it comes to skills rather than combat in T20. That seems to be a deliberate design decision (although Hunter and MDJ could speak more authoritatively on that).

In short, you give me 17 levels and the other players 7, and I will dominate the session. I wouldn't out of meanness, but simply from the fact that a 17th level character is generally so much better. As an aside, I find the Marine class to be fairly weak overall, the 1/1 bab notwithstanding, and the PSI (which is paid for in feats) makes him even weaker. Try 17 levels in Traveller, Navy, Rogue, Scout, or Merc, or all the above, and we will talk. These classes are IMHO much better than Marine at least for T20.

-Polaris

 

[Maghwi]

Phew. That was a long read...

Polaris, it's refreshing to see a real T20 fanatic. You would have to be, or you would have dropped this a loooong time ago. I'm a fanatic too. I don't post much, but belive me, there isn't a day that goes by without me thinking about how I'm going to get even with my GM.

Is it realistic to expect a newbie GM to do the same with unbalanced parties while suffering from possible player resentment therin? I think not!

New GM's should know how to handle people and have really good communication skills. If they don't, then NO guide will teach them, and they WILL FAIL as GM's in ANY game.

I'm in a group with a mix of experienced players and novices, and we have the full spectrum of character levels, I think from about 4th at the low end to 14th.

We don't have any problems. Why? Experience? NO. WE'RE FRIENDS first! We play as a TEAM. People who sit there and resent things ARE NOT TEAM PLAYERS. I'm personally glad as hell that we got the 14th level character with us! I wish he could be in more than one place at once! But the sad reality is, he can't. There is only so much he can do by himself. He supports us, and we support him. There are a lot of things he CAN'T do. And, since he goes up levels soooo painfully slowly compared to the lower level characters, he's pretty much stuck with what he's got, while the low level characters can rapidly adjust their skills and feats to match the requirements of the campaign. The low levels are more dynamic and flexible. It's not about what you have, it's about what you DO with what you have. The lower level characters dominate more often than not. A lot of that has to do with the PC's backgrounds.

Actually newbie GMs and players need guidance that that is easier done with balanced parties and some sort of benchmark

I respectfully disagree. They need guidance from experienced players and GM's. Balance has nothing to do with having fun or being a successfull GM or Player. Having a thick plot, and good PC backgrounds makes a more balanced party than any number rigging.

I'm glad someone suggested you write a guide for new players and GM's. It was the first thought I had when I first saw your post. Not that I would read it. Or use it. Our group already knows how to keep things balanced: Roleplay

You are spending way too much time focused on the numbers. If you had to complain about anything in the character generation, it should be that more emphasis should have been put into how to convert the numbers into player character history and background.
DM: "so, you were on a police raid in your 4th term, eh? And then failed your reinlistment after getting a SEH?? Well now...lets talk about that little raid, shall we? It seems that your team was setup from the beginning..." Guess what, as a GM, *I* got that uber-munchkin by the balls.

Put THAT in your guide.

 

[aravain]

Love that sig. line, Maghwi!!