Bk2 crew rounding

[Matt123]

I vaguely recall raising this a few years ago as potential errata and being shouted down as the interpretation was "obvious". It might be a Kiwi vs US interpretation thing.

In short I think this is about how you interpret "per n", whether you interpret it as "per whole n" (x/n).round_down or "per n or fraction thereof" (x/n).round_up. But I confess I'm not overly happy with the consequences of picking either interpretation.

Some examples (bk2, p16);

Any ship with tonnage 200 tons or more must have one engineer (with minimum engineer-I skill) per 35 tons of drives and power plant.

Ship is 200tn and...
drives are 30 ton. 0 or 1 engineer?
drives are 70 ton, 1 or 2 engineers?

Each starship of 200 tons or more must have a medic (medic-1 skill or better). In addition, there must be at least one medic per 120 passengers carried.

Ship is 200tn and...
is a Free Trader carrying 26 passengers (6 awake, 20 in low berths), 1 or 2 medics?
is a yacht carrying 8 passengers, 1 or 2 medics

If high passengers are carried, then a steward is required. There must be at least one steward (steward skill-0 or better) per eight high passengers on the ship.

carry one high passenger, 1 Steward
carry fifteen high passengers, 1 or 2 Stewards?

What answers do you get?

 

[aramis]

I've always read "1 per N" as divide X by N, rounding up, except in TNE, where it rounds to nearest 0.1...

 

[rnadams2]

I always go with "per n or fraction thereof." In your second example, note the use of "in addition," making it clear that the Free Trader requires 2 medics.

On another note, some of these requirements are most likely per the regulations of, well, whoever regulates such things. I would apply the second and third to ships carrying passengers commercially, depending on world law level. The first example might be more open to malfunction-type consequences administered by the referee.

 

[Matt123]

This is the problem, whichever interpretation you pick, odd things happen. For example using this interpretation (x/n).round_up leads to having two hardpoints on ships of 101-199 tons, rather than the conventional one (this has already been addressed in errata).

...the Free Trader requires 2 medics.

Outside of this interpretation, which is a natural consequence of using (x/n).round_up, I do not recall any canon text that implies 2 medics are required in a Free Trader. On top of the lack of support in canon, is the implication you need more medics than any other crew type; that 40% of the crew of a Free Trader should be medics.

Going the other way (x/n).round_down leads to a Free Trader not requiring any Engineers (Free Traders have 15 ton of drives). Which seems equally odd.

For reference (Bk2, p19)

The free trader requires a crew of four: pilot, engineer, medic, and steward.

 

[rancke]

How about 'round off, minimum of one'?

Perhaps add that a character with the requisite skills can fill two positions provided they don't sum up to more than 1 (or 1.5).


Hans

 

[aramis]

Whichever is more restrictive is the rounding.

For crew, I round up, because a fractional person of needed work still requires a person to man it.

For Hardpoints, I round allowed down, because it requires 100Td of ship to qualify for a HP. A fractional HP isn't a HP.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm not seeing the issue.

Any ship with tonnage 200 tons or more must have one engineer (with minimum engineer-I skill) per 35 tons of drives and power plant.
Ship is 200tn and...

drives are 30 ton. 0 or 1 engineer?
drives are 70 ton, 1 or 2 engineers?

drive are 30 tons? 1 engineer. You need 1 engineer per 35 tons if the vessel is 200 tons or more. So, a 100 ton ship with 15 tons of drive would not require an engineer, but a 200 ton ship with 30 tons of drive would require one.

drive are 70 tons? That's 2 engineers. 1 engineer for each 35 tons of the vessel's drives. But, this requirement applies only if the vessel is 200 tons or greater.



Provided the ship is 200+ tons....

1 engineer required. This engineer can service up to 35 tons of drive. After that, you need another engineer. So...

+1 engineer if drive tonnage 36-70 tons.

+2 engineers if drive tonnage 71-105 tons.

Each starship of 200 tons or more must have a medic (medic-1 skill or better). In addition, there must be at least one medic per 120 passengers carried.

So....if a starship is 200 tons or more, then it requires, at the minimum, 1 medic.

If the ship also carries 100 passengers, then it's still only 1 medic.

If the ship carries 210 passengers, then it's 2 medics.

Base is 1 medic for a 200 ton vessel. Add one medic at 120 passengers. Add a third medic at 240 passengers. Add a fourth medic a 360 passengers, and so on.

Ship is 200tn and...
is a Free Trader carrying 26 passengers (6 awake, 20 in low berths), 1 or 2 medics?

is a yacht carrying 8 passengers, 1 or 2 medics

Your Free Trader requires 1 medic, because it is 200+ tons.

Your Yacht requires 1 medic. You don't add a second medic until passengers reach a total of 120+.




Provided the ship is 200+ tons....

1 medic required.

+1 medic at 120 passengers.

+2 medics at 240 passengers.

+3 medics at 360 passengers.

If high passengers are carried, then a steward is required. There must be at least one steward (steward skill-0 or better) per eight high passengers on the ship.

carry one high passenger, 1 Steward
carry fifteen high passengers, 1 or 2 Stewards?

carry one high passenger? You need 1 Steward.

carry fifteen high passengers? You need 2 Stewards (as 1 Steward can service up to 8 high passengers each).




If 1-8 High Passengers are carried, then you need 1 Steward.

If 9-16 High Passengers are carried, then you need 2 Stewards.

If 17-24 High Passengers are carried, then you need 3 Stewards.

 

[McPerth]

Each starship of 200 tons or more must have a medic (medic-1 skill or better). In addition, there must be at least one medic per 120 passengers carried.

So....if a starship is 200 tons or more, then it requires, at the minimum, 1 medic.

If the ship also carries 100 passengers, then it's still only 1 medic.

If the ship carries 210 passengers, then it's 2 medics.

Base is 1 medic for a 200 ton vessel. Add one medic at 120 passengers. Add a third medic at 240 passengers. Add a fourth medic a 360 passengers, and so on.

That's my take too. As I always understood it, medics are calculated two ways:

• at 200 tons: one medic
• 1 medic per 120 passengers

using whatever number is higher (see that no ship under 200 tons may carry more than 120 passengers) so, in fact is 1 medic/120 passengers with a mínimum of 1 if the ship is 200 dton or more.

I agree that the words "in addition" may be confusing, but that's what all canon ships seem to use too.

 

[creativehum]

For what it's worth, how S4 reads the rules is how I've read them as well.

 

[rnadams2]

This is the problem, whichever interpretation you pick, odd things happen....

Outside of this interpretation, which is a natural consequence of using (x/n).round_up, I do not recall any canon text that implies 2 medics are required in a Free Trader. On top of the lack of support in canon, is the implication you need more medics than any other crew type; that 40% of the crew of a Free Trader should be medics.

True that. Perhaps... second Medic required only if carrying passengers? Or, the single Medic covers both crew and passengers up to 120. It's that pesky "in addition" making things unclear. I think I'd go with the second option, and let one medic serve 120 potential patients.

 

[Matt123]

Obviously this thread isn't lighting fires however we have enough views in this short survey to demonstrate at least three different ways of interpreting the rules when "per n" is used in CT (Supplement Four, Aramis and madams2).

With regards to Engineers, Supplement Four has read per n to mean (x/n).round_up, to arrive at 2 Engineers needed for 70 ton of drives.

With regards to Medics, Supplement Four has read per n to mean (x/n).round_down, to arrive at 0 extra medics if there are 1 to 119 passengers (ignoring the compulsory medic).

Creativehum (and myself) also appear to use the rules this way, picking and choosing how to interpret per n on-the-fly. Aramis also picks and chooses (eg: hard points, round down), but rounds up consistently for personal. While madams2 always rounds up.

I'll suggest that a consistent interpretation may be to add to Dons errata that per n is (x/n).round_up (no doubt he would word it better) and create an exception for those cases where (x/n).round_down is the case (as Don has already done with hard points. I might argue, possibly with the support of Supplement Four, Creativehum and Madams2 that the same should apply for the 'additional' medic).

I will pop a link to this thread on Don's CT Errata thread for his consideration.

 

[creativehum]

With regards to Medics, Supplement Four has read per n to mean (x/n).round_down, to arrive at 0 extra medics if there are 1 to 119 passengers (ignoring the compulsory medic).

Just a quibble...

I don't think that's what S4 is saying.

In his example, if there's already a medic because of the hull size, then a medic is not required for the 120 passengers. He's not ignoring the compulsory medic. He's saying a second medic isn't required until the next passenger bump.

I know this will only add fuel to the fire that there's some sort of complication here. I want to say, I honestly am not seeing the complication. (I'm seeing people seeing the complication. I'm not seeing the compilation myself.)

 

[Matt123]

Just a quibble...

I don't think that's what S4 is saying.

In his example, if there's already a medic because of the hull size, then a medic is not required for the 120 passengers. He's not ignoring the compulsory medic. He's saying a second medic isn't required until the next passenger bump.

This is one of those things that is really obvious, until you figure out that your version of obvious is different to the next guys.

Bk 2, p16

Each starship of 200 tons or more must have a medic (medic-1 skill or better). In addition, there must be at least one medic per 120 passengers carried.

The medic for passengers is in addition to the compulsory one. It is a separate consideration. Given less than 120 passengers, do you add the additional medic or not? If no, that implies given less than 35 tn of drives, you do not require an Engineer. This makes the Free Trader crew, a pilot, steward and a medic.

If you view that the Free Traders 15 ton of drives needs an Engineer, applying the same approach to medics gives the Free Trader crew a pilot, engineer, steward and two medics.

I'm just highlighting the text allows either; but does not allow a mix to get to the 'common sense' answer given in the Free Trader write-up of pilot, engineer, steward and medic.

 

[McPerth]

If you view that the Free Traders 15 ton of drives needs an Engineer, applying the same approach to medics gives the Free Trader crew a pilot, engineer, steward and two medics.

I'm just highlighting the text allows either; but does not allow a mix to get to the 'common sense' answer given in the Free Trader write-up of pilot, engineer, steward and medic.

Not only the common sense (as it's said in Spain, the least common of all senses), but also the listed crew in the books themselves, not only for the free trader, but also for all other 200+ ton ships (fat trader, Subsized lineer, mercenary cruiser, yacht and patrol cruiser. The more relevant among those being the Subsized lineer and mercenary cruiser, sa are the ones that carry more passengers.

 

[creativehum]

I understand that there are different readings of the text. Honestly, I agree with you it's poorly worded.

But when I read the crew requirement in the description of each ship, honestly, it doesn't seem confusing anymore. At least to me. I have to put the two texts side by side to sort it out. But at that point, for me it becomes clear.

The crew descriptions for each ship form the baseline for the ship. And then, for larger ships (whether through through the ship's scale or number of passengers) one uses the guidelines on p. 16 to adjudicate the increase in crew requirements.

But, look, go for it. Clarity is always good!

 

[Supplement Four]

Bk 2, p16

Each starship of 200 tons or more must have a medic (medic-1 skill or better). In addition, there must be at least one medic per 120 passengers carried.

You've got two checks there.

First, you check to see if the ship is 200 tons or greater.

1. Do I have a medic for my starship that is 200+ tons?

Answer: If the ship is 200+ tons, then you need a medic.



The second check has to do with passengers.

How many passengers do I have on the vessel? I know that I need one medic per 120 passengers.

2. So, if I have 7 passengers, then how many medics do I need?

I just need one medic total.



I can see where you are confusing the "in addition" statement (it's saying "in addition", another requirement is that a medic is needed per 120 passengers).

But, if interpreted the way that you are saying it reads, then no ship that carries passengers would ever have less than two medics.

And, we know that's not correct from seeing the crew count on the cannon ships.





1. You need a medic if your ship is 200+ tons.

2. You need a medic for every 120 passengers.


Thus, a 300 ton vessel with 45 passengers needs one medic.

A 100 ton vessel with 238 passengers needs two medics.

A 800 ton vessel with 305 passengers needs three medics.




EDIT: I edited the last two examples as my math was off, as I typed fast in an attempt to finish quickly and go meet my sister for breakfast.

 

[aramis]

The examples all use either A (Min 1) or B (1 per 120 passengers)...

Reverse engineering the standard designs shows that, for medics, S4 is correct.

 

[MCEvans]

1. You need a medic if your ship is 200+ tons.

2. You need a medic for every 120 passengers.


Thus, a 300 ton vessel with 45 passengers needs one medic.

A 100 ton vessel with 248 passengers needs two medics.

A 800 ton vessel with 375 passengers needs three medics.

The 1st yes.

But would not the other two have +1 more medic
120 x 2 = 240 but 248 pax
120 x 3 = 360 but 375 pax (this one you could also justify +1 more being 200+dT)

 

[rancke]

The 1st yes.

But would not the other two have +1 more medic
120 x 2 = 240 but 248 pax
120 x 3 = 360 but 375 pax (this one you could also justify +1 more being 200+dT)

The argument is that you don't need an extra medic for 0-119 passengers. Thus you only need one extra for 120-239 passengers, two extra for 240-359 passengers, and so on.

Incidentally, military ships apparently only need one medic regardless of crew size, since none of them are passengers. Even ship's troops have crew functions.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

The 1st yes.

But would not the other two have +1 more medic
120 x 2 = 240 but 248 pax
120 x 3 = 360 but 375 pax (this one you could also justify +1 more being 200+dT)

My mistake on the first. Addition error.

You are correct.

It's a 100 ton vessel, so no medic needed there.

But, there are 248 passengers. That would require three medics.



Yes, the same for the second example. I'll change the above to reflect the correct numbers.