Book 2 economics, again! Beating the dead horse...

[Cymew]

I sat down with B2 and T20 (since the latter is B2++) and rolled some dice. Not a pretty result.

Now, I must admit that I have fallen in love with the Far Trader A2 from my previous post on the subject. It is a pretty good example though, since it showcase the parts of B2 that's broken, or at least designed to make the PC trader sigh.

Let's say you muster out with a ship, and you roll your other rolls for cash and get's a few tens of thousands of credits.

How do you actually get so far as looking for adventure if the first thing you realize is that you can't afford to fill your ship with cargo?

I mean, you have some hundred thousands you must pay each month, and after one month you have probably done 2 jumps. How do you earn a few hundred thousand credits in two jumps? I guess the bank breathes down your neck after one month and take your ship and sells it to get some money back.

Ok. Maybe there is some way to earn that much if you get lucky. I'm lousy at math and might not even have understood the trade system (even though some patient posters here have tried to teach me!

).

But, as far as I understand it, if you have a ship that can take a decent amount of cargo, you wont get that much cash from mustering out in order to fill the ship with cargo.

Am I missing something? (again...)

 

[robject]

No, it's hard to make money with an A2, no doubt about it. And folks have tweaked the rules in many places to ease the burden. Your best bet is to head for a green pasture and get rich -- Rhylanor-Porozlo springs to mind. Or maybe Regina-Yori.

Even the CT rules provide small doses of relief. Mail contracts, subsidies, and speculative cargo. In fact, I think the CT rules only provide small doses because the game is in the referee's hands, not the players': The ultimate "relief" to the trade debacle is, of course, the Adventure. Traveller's not centered on economics: traffic levels and throughput are primarily symbolic to guide the referee.

 

[Cymew]

I'm re-reading the posts by "tbeard1999" right now and like him I realize that the rules are written to force the players to take risks. Good for a game, right.

The problem is I can't imagine why a sensible player would ever want a ship! I agree with Marc's intent with the rules, but they don't make sense in their harshness.

Since people have played Traveller since 1977 I guess most referees have just thrown adventures at the players or not much bothered with the economics. I don't need a full scale economy simulation (I think GT:FT sounds deadly boring), but I do need something that wont ruin suspension of disbelief.

How on earth do you get money enough to fill your cargo hold? Earn $100000 on a fast adventure and then before 2 weeks have passed jump and sell the cargo. There's something not right in that picture...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

On non-speculation runs, I don't believe you pay for your cargo. It is like FedEx - they don't buy the package, they just charge to deliver it.

Speculation, OTOH, I believe you have to actually buy the cargo.

 

[aramis]

Cymew: few ships will fill on typical runs. You speculate without a starship, renting space as need be.

With KCr50, one can make quite a bundle IF ONE IS CAREFUL. It is easier under Bk2/T20 than Bk7/MT/TNE/T4, but can be done profitably even there.

 

[mike wightman]

IMHO, people speculating without their own ships but paying freight rates to ship the cargo is as good an explanation of the trading that goes on in CT as you need.

 

[Cymew]

Naturally, I had overlooked that shipping freight you are actually not paying for the privilegue(sp?) but you are not earning enough to make ends meet when the monthly payment time arrive either. Neither had I thought about that you don't have to use a ship to speculate, but since my big gripe is that mustering out with a ship is just not worth it, it is not really relevant for my problem.

I guess Will is right in stating that you can speculate with 50KCr and earn a lot, but not all who muster out with a ship have those abilities.

It still looks like mustering out with a ship is either a fast way to some cash (by selling your ship) or a sure way of loosing your ship at the end of the month if you haven't speculated like mad.

I'm beginning to think that most referees have just ignored those pesky payments until a few month into the game when they wanted to divert some funds from the now rich player characters...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

That's entirely possible, Cymew. I think, though, that most of your ships are not mortgaged per the books - except for the poor merchant. If you add mortgages (like to the Safari ship) it can add some danger to the game, but most of the ships appear to be on loan from someone (except the Corsair - and a Pirate doesn't pay his bills anyway, aaaarrrggghh!).

 

[Cymew]

Maybe that's the most sensible thing to do for the ref, loan the PC's a ship and do away with the headache. I sure have gotten perspective!

 

[Fritz_Brown]

For most of the CT chargen, that seems to be the intent:
Pirates - "possession", no real statement
Scouts - on loan from IISS
Scientist - on loan from someone (megacorp or university)
Hunter - no real statement (could be outright ownership)
Belter - implies total ownership?
Noble - yacht is theirs, but they're rich, anyway

 

[robject]

Hunter - ship owned by a rich, eccentric nobleman, who has hired PCs as crew.

Belter - works for the Company Store. You load 16 tons, whaddaya get?...

 

[far-trader]

Well, as we're flogging failed equines, I'll just say it again...

The Book 2 trade system is designed for one thing only. The J1 M1 P1 Book 2 built plain vanilla unarmed Type A Free Trader run by PC's who are in it for the adventure. Period.

 

[robject]

Yeah.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by far-trader:
The Book 2 trade system is designed for one thing only. The J1 M1 P1 Book 2 built plain vanilla unarmed Type A Free Trader run by PC's who are in it for the adventure. Period.

And the plain vanilla Beowulf can in fact operate profitably without speculating, IF you manage to run at somewhere around 90% of cargo and passenger capacity every jump. A couple of slim trips, on the other hand, and suddenly that bank payment looms large.

Then there's the Empress Marava, which will not make its payments unless you buy low and sell high...a lot...especially if you use the correct stats and not what's printed in T&G...

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Cymew:
Let's say you muster out with a ship, and you roll your other rolls for cash and get's a few tens of thousands of credits.

How do you actually get so far as looking for adventure if the first thing you realize is that you can't afford to fill your ship with cargo?

I mean, you have some hundred thousands you must pay each month, and after one month you have probably done 2 jumps. How do you earn a few hundred thousand credits in two jumps? I guess the bank breathes down your neck after one month and take your ship and sells it to get some money back.

Well, first of all, you don't buy a new ship unless you have a contract for freighting stuff along a specific route for the next 40 years (Or some other reason to believe that you will be able to fill your hold every trip for the next 40 years, such as being a major freight company with lots and lots of contracts).

So if you're a free trader, you probably bought a used ship for, say, 20% of it's original price. As long as your major systems don't break down, that should help a bit with the payments.

Then you charge per parsec instead of per jump. That will help a lot too.


Hans

 

[robject]

Heck yeah. Never buy a new tramp trader. What's "tramp" about shiny and new, anyway?

And have your business plan laid out, if you're set on making money via LBB. Camp out on the Lunion-Strouden route, or Glisten-Egypt (is that correct?), or any of a dozen pairs where you'll run 100% full.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
Then there's the Empress Marava, which will not make its payments unless you buy low and sell high...a lot...especially if you use the correct stats and not what's printed in T&G...

I can get a LBB2 first edition designed far trader to match the text of T&G.

The boxed info is for a revised LBB2 based design (thanks daryen

).

Can't see how it can meet its payments without a lot of speculation or a GT rules change, although T20 priority cargos may help...

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I can get a LBB2 first edition designed far trader to match the text of T&G.

Please share!

I've always treated the text description and USP as an example of speculative fiction in my games...

 

[mike wightman]

Ok, here goes.

The text says 200t streamlined hull, jump 2, 1G, 50t fuel (dead give away it is a first edition design ), 1bis comp, two turrets, ten staterooms, four low berths, an air/raft, and 61 tons of cargo. Cost MCr66.175

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">+200tons Hull - custom MCr20.000
Streamlined 2.000

-15tons Jump drive B 20.000
-1tons Man. drive A 4.000
-4tons Powerplant A 8.000

-40tons Fuel x jump 2
-10tons Fuel x 4 week

-20tons Bridge - standard 1.000
-1tons Computer mdl/1bis 5.000

-40tons Staterooms x10 5.000
-2tons Lowberths x4 0.200

-2tons Hardpoints x2 0.200

-4tons Air/Raft 0.600

-61tons Cargo hold</pre>[/QUOTE]

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
...50t fuel (dead give away it is a first edition design

D'oh! I forgot that!