Book 2: Starship Combat

[kinnerc]

Amazingly, its been years since I've actually *played* Traveller, and I'm finding myself re-reading the Classic Books. I came across a couple of thing in Book 2's Starship Combat that I couldn't quite get. I'm wondering what answers other people have developed or have read.

Now Book 2 starship combat is simple. I get that. This was one of the first role playing games, and honestly, it is Classic Traveller's simplicity that is part of its appeal to me. However, it may be possible for the rules to be so simple they're not quite all there.

Missiles:
Book 2 seems to mention that missiles are launched at the ordanance launch phase and they move during the movement phase. However, nowhere can I find in Book 2 how fast missiles move! What is their vector? The rules are specific in telling us that ordanance, when launched, has the firing ship's vector (which makes sense), but what is the acceleration of the missile?

Lasers:
I may be mixing things up here, but somehow I remember two different types of lasers used - a Pulse Laser and a Beam Laser (or am I think of the old video game Elite??). Here the rules say that dice are rolled, DM's are added to that roll, and if 8+ is scored the defending ship is hit. It seems to indicate that the number of hits equals the die roll -7. That is you get 1 hit if you rolled (after modifiers) an 8, 2 for 9, 3 for 10. I can't see anything that says you roll separately for laser hits once you determine the laser did indeed hit. With missiles you roll one die to determine the amount of hits after you determine the missile struck. With lasers it seems to be integrated into the "to-hit" roll.

Sandcasters:
The whole point of sandcasters is to provide a defense against lasers. The rules say that you have a -3 DM for each 25mm of obscuring sand (or a 2500km cloud in actual space). Is this the amout of sand generated by one missile? And again, what is the speed of that missile. What you want to do with the sand is have it explode *between* you and the attacking ship such that the sand will actually follow your vector somewhat.

So, Classic fans, how have you handled Book 2 starship combat?

 

[spinwardpirate]

Wow, off the top of my head... sorry, I can't help. But I do remember beam and pulse lasers too. But where the heck is the modifier for each... (looking in books) If they aren't in Book 2, then maybe they are in Mayday? Hmm... still no luck.

Mayday... standard missiles are 6G6.

Sand has your same vector. So until you change your vector, sand stays with you as I recall.

 

[spinwardpirate]

Can I cheat and use Starter Traveller? Dm -1 for firing pulse. A hit does two damage rolls as opposed to the 1 roll from a beam laser.

 

[Ron Gianti]

I don't see in Book 2 where it indicates that lasers do more than 1 point of damage:

Fourth, two dice are thrown, and that result modified by both the attack and
defense DMs. If the modified result equals or exceeds 8, a hit is achieved. The dice
throw is made once for each firing laser weapon. The total number of hits is noted.
Fifth, each hit received is located on the target ship. Using another two dice
throw for each hit, the hit location table is consulted, and a specific effect is
obtained and marked on the ship data card.

 

[far-trader]

...

Missiles:
Book 2 seems to mention that missiles are launched at the ordnance launch phase and they move during the movement phase. However, nowhere can I find in Book 2 how fast missiles move! What is their vector? The rules are specific in telling us that ordnance, when launched, has the firing ship's vector (which makes sense), but what is the acceleration of the missile?

One of the lost bits. I eventually house ruled that missiles were more like bullets. Big bullets with limited terminal guidance. That went very very fast. So you fire them and the next turn they are at the target, hit or miss, subject to defensive fire.

Lasers:
I may be mixing things up here, but somehow I remember two different types of lasers used - a Pulse Laser and a Beam Laser (or am I think of the old video game Elite??). Here the rules say that dice are rolled, DM's are added to that roll, and if 8+ is scored the defending ship is hit. It seems to indicate that the number of hits equals the die roll -7. That is you get 1 hit if you rolled (after modifiers) an 8, 2 for 9, 3 for 10. I can't see anything that says you roll separately for laser hits once you determine the laser did indeed hit. With missiles you roll one die to determine the amount of hits after you determine the missile struck. With lasers it seems to be integrated into the "to-hit" roll.

A lost bit from the 1st ed of Book 2. As noted above pulse lasers grant 2 damage rolls but are -1 to hit. If I recall correctly.

But you're confusing the damage rolls. First you roll 2D6 to hit for each weapon (up to 3 per turret), applying modifiers. A roll of 8+ is a hit. Then you roll another 2D6 on the damage table for each hit. Unless the hit is a missile. Missiles that hit roll 1D6 each for the number of other 2D6 damage rolls.

Sandcasters:
The whole point of sandcasters is to provide a defense against lasers. The rules say that you have a -3 DM for each 25mm of obscuring sand (or a 2500km cloud in actual space). Is this the amout of sand generated by one missile? And again, what is the speed of that missile. What you want to do with the sand is have it explode *between* you and the attacking ship such that the sand will actually follow your vector somewhat.

More missing bits. We just houseruled that if you didn't change your vector sand stayed and could be stacked. Each sand launched provided a -3DM (cumulative) as long as you didn't change your vector. Once you did it was gone.

Yes that is the amount of sand cast by one launcher. And in our games it had no speed or anything, it was more like a depth charge. The cannister was launched at very low velocity and while still near the ship it would pop and disperse the cloud of particles in a disc, a shield if you will, oriented towards the incoming fire. Each separate enemy needed to be allotted its own sand screen for defensive DMs to apply.

Our sand cannisters were not explosive. And they were not shotguns (as they are in Striker iirc). They have no real offensive capability in my take.

 

[pendragonman]

Can I cheat and use Starter Traveller? Dm -1 for firing pulse. A hit does two damage rolls as opposed to the 1 roll from a beam laser.

That is how it should be, and I believe that is how it is listed in TTB. Not %100 sure on the TTB thing, though. Not handy for easy reference.

 

[Jeffr0]

More missing bits. We just houseruled that if you didn't change your vector sand stayed and could be stacked. Each sand launched provided a -3DM (cumulative) as long as you didn't change your vector. Once you did it was gone.

That's just silly. It didn't work well in Mayday, either.... I much prefer the battery assignment against just the successful hits... followed with a penetration roll in the High Guard tradition.

 

[faherman]

What I want to know is, how do you find enough room to play out space battles? Detection range is a meter and a half, negative DMs to hit don't start until two and a half meters--you need a reasonably big area.

 

[aramis]

That is how it should be, and I believe that is how it is listed in TTB. Not %100 sure on the TTB thing, though. Not handy for easy reference.

TTB has no second damage roll.

 

[Supplement Four]

What I want to know is, how do you find enough room to play out space battles? Detection range is a meter and a half, negative DMs to hit don't start until two and a half meters--you need a reasonably big area.

Yep. You need the entire kitchen floor.

While this was grand for giving the players a feeling for just how big space really is (it's hard to grasp sometimes: "...and your vessel is here, next to the refrigerator, but that signal you just picked up on scanners? That's out past the driveway in the street, but vectoring your way, fast."), it makes for an impractical wargame.

There are basically two options for a remedy.





First, you can covert to hex-based movement, using a hex sheet (that you stole from another game or bought at the drafting supply store). This is easy. Each hex = 10,000 km. A vessel with a M-1 drive will accelerate 10,000 km over the time of one game turn. An M-2 vessel will accelerate to 20,000 km, and so on.

This is an excellent system. It allows you to keep the spacefight on the gaming table, and it still shows 2D position relationships. Mayday uses a similar system (although Mayday's scale is bigger than Book 2).

What you lose is the micro-moves of the original Book 2 system, where a vessel could accelerate for only 1000 meters, if it wanted to.

I don't think that's a big loss, though. And, certainly what you gain by playing the game in one confined space is worth losing those little micro-moves (moves less than 10,000 km vector change) because they really gave no tactical advantage in the game anyway.





Second, you can use the Range Band conversion of Book 2 combat found in Starter Traveller. This system mirrors the Range Band system for Combat you find in Book 1. You don't need a map at all. The GM keeps track of the distance between two vessels on a sheet of lined notebook paper and simply describes what the players see on their scanners and sensors.

The "pros" of this system is that it's easy, and it focusses the action on roleplaying (using basically the same Book 2 combat rules--just changing position represenation) rather than providing a "wargame" type feel.

The "con" of this system is that it's hard for the GM to keep track of 3+ independent vessels. For example, if the player's ship is on the run from the authorities, is attacked by a Vargr Corsair, and then the battle is joined by a customs boat, you've got three distinct parties in on the fight. Keeping track of this on a sheet of lined notebook can be difficult (but not impossible). If yo have 4+ independent vessels, all at different ranges, the system becomes unmanageable.

So, really, the Range Band method is best used when the player's ship fights one other opponent, or 2+ opponents that mainatain close distances to each other (remain in formation).

 

[faherman]

Hmm. Good breakdown there.

As another and faster option, would High Guard combat be doable for individual PC-level ship combat (with the "line" consisting of a single ship with no reserve)?

 

[far-trader]

Hmm. Good breakdown there.

As another and faster option, would High Guard combat be doable for individual PC-level ship combat (with the "line" consisting of a single ship with no reserve)?

Absolutely. In fact it says so somewhere (something about Ship Tactics skill, might be talking about fleet action but doesn't rule out single ship combat).

Also note that Book 5 while not specifically saying you use computer programming I believe that is another bit of oversight errata. Especially as the computer table includes programming capacity. That would allow you to add other PC level interaction such as Gunner skill and Pilot skill.

 

[Supplement Four]

As another and faster option, would High Guard combat be doable for individual PC-level ship combat (with the "line" consisting of a single ship with no reserve)?

Sure, but I'd never do it that way.

I think the perfect way to play Traveller combat is to focus on the PC's ship.

What I usually do, unless circumstances dictate otherwise, is lay the deckplans for the PC ship out on the gaming table. Then, I use the Starter Traveller version of Book 2 combat (using Range Bands).

This completely focuses on the players: what they see; hear; smell; and nothing else.

Want distance to enemy? Check the sensors. I'll look at the marks on my Range Band ladder, "The sensor reads the distance to the nearest enemy vessel is 40,000 km."

If I roll a successful to hit in space combat, I'll do that behind the screen. Then, I'll describe the damage the ship takes. "On the bridge: Nav reads energy spike! A millisecond later, the ship rocks."

Player: "I'll look at damage control!"

Me: "Ship's system reads a direct hit to engineering."

It's not untypical at all, during one of my games, to spend time following the ship's crew around as they deal with issues inside the ship during a space combat scenario. Usually, this is damage control (and this can be fun...making PCs suit up and use the zero-G rules as they have to cross a damaged section of the ship to get to their destination), but it also can be repelling boarders, dealing with passenegers during the attack, maybe even "inside" pirates disguised as passengers. There's all sorts of things that can happen.

Remember, the space combat round in Book 2 is over 15 min. long, so this leaves a lot of room for role playing in-between the space combat rounds.

Remember, the attack roll in Book 2 space combat isn't done on a 1-1 basis. The laser firing ship is constantly firing weapons. There is a constant barrage of laser fire coming from the enemy ship. The 8+ throw is the chance, every space combat round, that one of those laser shots will hit.

Another way of saying this is: The enemy ship is firing at your constantly with its lasers. Sensors spike, up and down, every few seconds. The chance of actually being hit is 8+ (plus mods), thrown each 15 minutes or so (1000 seconds), per laser weapon.

Laser weapons aren't slow. The beam moves at the speed of light. And, the weapon is constantly firing, recharging, firing again. Whether the beams can be seen (visible light) or not (UV) is up to the GM and his description of his universe. But, either way, sensors can pick up the beams.

So, there may be 100...200...300 near misses, depending on turrets and how fast they recharge and fire, before the ship is hit. And, two space combat rounds is over 30 minutes of game time. So, if the enemy vessel misses in two consecutive combat rounds, then what happens is the PC ship undergoes a hail of near-miss laser beams for over half an hour.

The point being: A GM can use this info and really jazz up a game. The standard, sometimes boring 8+ to hit roll can be transformed into an exciting space battle worthy of re-telling in a novel, in the hands of a skilled GM.

All the ques are there for heightened drama.

Which is why I try to play Traveller space combat like that.

It makes the combat sessions quite memorable.

 

[atpollard]

Sure, but I'd never do it that way.

I think the perfect way to play Traveller combat is to focus on the PC's ship.
[snip]
Which is why I try to play Traveller space combat like that.
It makes the combat sessions quite memorable.

Sounds good, where do I sign up.

 

[The Dragon Master]

snip awsomeness

This. Right here, this is what I wan't out of a combat system.

 

[far-trader]

You can do exactly the same thing using Book 5 combat. I agree PC combat should be coloured by role playing and ref description. It doesn't matter how the underlying rules are figured out as long as they don't interfere. In this case Book 5 adds to the game imo. More weapon varieties, more damage types, even suggesting new combat choices (breaking off, pursuit, etc.). All in all, better than Book 2 in many ways.

 

[far-trader]

...Remember, the attack roll in Book 2 space combat isn't done on a 1-1 basis. The laser firing ship is constantly firing weapons. There is a constant barrage of laser fire coming from the enemy ship. The 8+ throw is the chance, every space combat round, that one of those laser shots will hit.

That's not actually spelled out though. I do it that way myself (though only 20 shots a turn iirc), but it's a house rule, not official.

 

[Supplement Four]

This. Right here, this is what I wan't out of a combat system.

You've got all the tools you need. If you've got to the CT CD-ROM, then you've got Starter Traveller. Read how vector movement from Book 2 is replaced with Range Band movement.

Use Range Band movement to keep track of distance. Use some deckplans (either buy some nifty ones, like the ones SJG put out for Gurps Traveller, or simply draw some on some over-sized "visit to art supply store" graph paper with a black magic marker).

You can use counters for people inside the craft--say, some taken from snapshot. You can make your own (there are Traveller websites that will help you make counters). You can use minatures.

What I do is cheap and effective. I have a large cork board I purchased about 15 years ago from my local office supply. It's meant to be hung on the wall, but I just lay it on the gaming table.

Then, I use push-pins (tacs) to represent the crew inside the ship. I've drawn the ship's deckplans using large sheets of graph paper and a black marker. Then, I can just keep track of everybody--where they are--by moving the push pins when the character moves. Colored dots (that I will write on with character initials) are stuck to the top of the push pins.

I've been gaming this way for interior conflicts for many, many years now, and I find it works quite well.

Plus, it is very inexpensive. Like I said, I bought the set-up some 15 years ago, and I'm still using it.

Plus, if you have to put up during the middle of a fight, it's easy to store the character's positions until next game session--the tacs are stuck in the cork. And, the graph paper is tacked to the cork as well.

After a while, you may have to re-draw the ship on the graph paper. But, you can get a lot of mileage out of a ship--typically you won't have to re-draw anything.

You can do exactly the same thing using Book 5 combat.

Absolutely. Book 5 combat was designed to be used that way. It's very abstract. The two battle lines are akin to the Range Band movement system.

In fact, I'd recommend using Range Band movement for two ships, but switching to the Book 5 method when more than two ships are involved in the fight as Book 5 handles multiple ships better.

Don't forget, though, that Book 5 space combat is geared towards large, capital class ships, where as Book 2 is geared towards small tonnages adventure class vessels.

Sometimes adjustments are required.





Also...

Don't forget Mayday. If you've got the CT CD-ROM, you've got that game, too. It uses a hex board. It's scale is really in-between Book 2 and Book 5. The JTAS has an article on how to use Book 5 space combat rules with Mayday movement (playing out on a hex board rather than abstractly as suggested in Book 5).

That's not actually spelled out though. I do it that way myself (though only 20 shots a turn iirc), but it's a house rule, not official.

It is spelled out in some non-GDW CT sources. Official? That's debatable.

But, it is supported in later editions of Traveller (TNE, T4, etc), you will see ROF ratings for lasers. They usually start at around 100 shots per space combat round.

 

[kinnerc]

VERY nice!

Yes, some of the best role playing sessions I've been a part of were when no dice were rolled. You just gave a wonderful description of why this is so. Thanks!

 

[kinnerc]

So, after a pretty nice conversation (thanks everyone), it sounds like Book 2 starship combat did have a couple of things missing that I missed back 25+ years ago as a kid. Folks got around this by grafting in other rules.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, in my mind. I tend to equate the Original LBBs as the old Basic D&D Blue Book of Traveller. It was ground-breaking, but it wasn't quite complete.

But you guys certainly answered the questions...and more. Thanks!!