Book 5 v.1 Magazines?

[jawillroy]

I'm not finding anything clear in my searches.

Did the first edition of High Guard actually have a usable missile magazine rule, or was it just a "your ship has a magazine or it doesn't" sort of thing, leading to a further vacuum of detail?

I'm wondering if anyone's got a nice, SIMPLE way of contending with missile expenditure that tempers the "Mordenkainen's Endless Barrage" of a ten ton fighter with a missile rack launching missiles every turn for a fifty-turn High Guard battle. I've been cobbling together ships that can barely hit each other and keep lobbing "Hail Mary" passes at each other that can only hit on high rolls.

Maybe a magazine constitutes equal tonnage again to all missile launch systems: A magazine for a single turret = 1 ton, a magazine for a 50 ton bay = 50 tons.

Existence of a magazine allows reloads for (say) twenty turns.
Absent a magazine - three turns? More? Fewer?

I know about the Freelance Traveller solution, and it just seems to err on the side of "fiddly."

 

[Spinward Flow]

JTAS #6 features the first instance of High Guard that turned into LBB5.80.

LBB5.79 p32 contains the following:

Magazine: Any ship with missile racks installed in bays may allocate a magazine equal in tons to the points used in determining missile factor for a bay or turret. The total of such points (unaveraged) is then available as a planetary bombing factor. Planetary bombing is not available to ships without missile magazines. Such magazines cost Cr10,000 per ton.

LBB5.79 p40 then contains the following:

Planetary Bombardment: Missiles may be used against planetary surface installations, specifically starports or cities, provided a magazine is installed in the attacking ship.
Attacks are made using the missile attack table; each successful penetration of the defenses present results in an automatic hit. The referee is responsible for the determination of the city or starport’s defenses, and for determination of the number of hits required for capitulation and destruction.

So ... basically ... magazines were only "needed" in the original High Guard for planetary bombardments. For ship to ship action, they were superfluous.

 

[jawillroy]

JTAS #6 features the first instance of High Guard that turned into LBB5.80.

LBB5.79 p32 contains the following:

LBB5.79 p40 then contains the following:

So ... basically ... magazines were only "needed" in the original High Guard for planetary bombardments. For ship to ship action, they were superfluous.

Thank you for that! Is it clear to you how LBB5.79 assigned those "points?"

Suppose we see a ship's magazine being equal to one ton for each missile rack (1-30), and considering magazines integral to bays; the presence of a magazine allows "Mordenkainen's Relentless Barrage." Craft without a magazine get 3 turns worth of salvo before requiring a reload from a service vessel.

That'd prevent most abuses of missile fighters, I should think.

How's that sound as a houserule?

 

[Spinward Flow]

Is it clear to you how LBB5.79 assigned those "points?"

LBB5.79 is ... weird ... for how it handles its weapon factors.
But the simplified version for a more streamlined LBB5.80 interpretation is that you need 1 ton of magazine per 1 factor of missile battery per battery for a planetary bombardment.

So if you had 3 batteries of TL=13+ triple missile turrets (code: 3) you would need 9 tons of magazine (3+3+3) in order to be able to bombard a planet with those three missile batteries.

Of course, the rules then fail to specify how many times you can bombard a planet with those missile batteries using that magazine ... but the presumption is "at least once" because ... go figure. However, if you interpret the rules as being "that many tons of magazine PER BOMBARDMENT" then you can easily start to see sustained bombardments needs some really significant magazine sizes, especially for sustained bombardments.

 

[jawillroy]

Yeah, the effort to abstract the process was well intentioned but the execution - as so often in this game we love - left maddening areas of silence.

 

[mike wightman]

You missed another rule from 79 edition.
I don't have it electronically because it is not on my CT disc for some reason, but my paper copy has a rule on page 41 for high intensity missile fire - fire all missiles for a +4 bonus, usable only once.

 

[jawillroy]

"high intensity missile fire"

Huh. So the assumption was that, whatever the specific factor, missile fire was generally NOT "high intensity."

I wonder then if a rationale for leaving the missile expenditure uncounted might be that in a given round of "fire"a missile attack might not actually involve launching a missile, but jockeying for position and seeking missile lock: applying the threat of missile attack to reduce mobility.

Those unhittable missile fighters forming the line of battle might not be actually firing dozens of missiles. Maybe?

This leads to another idea:
Q) in such a situation, where a handful of unhittable, lightly armed ships are left in the line preventing a bunch of battlecruisers from proceeding, why would the opposition not be able to just barge through and ignore the gnats?

A) with a houserule maybe they could - at the expense of all defensive mods from agility and superior computers. (Not evading, going straight into striking range.) Either a desperate move to reach a target in reserve, or to force beyond an insignificant defender.

"Forced Breakthrough:" The line of the attacker can attempt breakthrough, even if the defending line is capable of firing. All ships of the opposing line may fire at the breakthrough ships, hitting automatically. Defensive fire (beams, sandcasters and so on) may still can be effective.

I haven't tested this yet, just popped into my head - but I wonder if attempting this houserule might go towards explaining why an undergunned but unhittable line can still hold against more powerful ships.

 

[vegascat]

Here is a bit of real-world info on missiles in use. None of this is classified. The estimates I tried to base on industrial equipment and handling real missiles. The missiles I handled were stored in large metal or fiberglass containers much larger than the missiles inside designed for long term storage and handling by apes using heavy equipment.
All of these missile types have Wings and steering Fins extending from the missile body. The latest versions have steerable thrust. I have not worked with these since I retired in 2005.
Five different types of guided missiles with specs are listed below. The range and speed listed for each are misleading, Speed is added to the launching vehicles speed. Range is depending on many variables. Dimensions limit the size of the different components. They would also limit turret or magazine handling equipment. The bodies are either 5-, 7-, or 12-inches diameter with 10-to-12-foot length. Ship missiles would have steerable thrust as the fins and wings would only gum up the handling equipment for no effect in vacuum. I imagine a loaded toothed conveyor belt to move the missiles along to the launch tube. Each tube could have different types of missiles, but that would complicate matters badly. As each missile on the conveyor reached the launch tube, it would be gently rammed into firing position. A dedicated data port in the tube would connect to the missile feeding target data and launch profile to intercept its target. A gauss style launcher would eject it from the launcher with least shock that could damage the missile.
I see the missiles about the same dimensions as an AGM65 at 12 in diameter and 8 foot long. The conveyor would be about half the diameter of the missiles for 6 inches deep and about 10 foot long. or for 1 ton of space, you could load 30 missiles. For a missile a bit shorter than the size of an AGM114 Hellfire at 7 in by 5 ft changed to 8-inch diameter by 4.5 foot long, a lighter conveyor could be used that could hold 100 missiles per ton. The smaller missiles could be held in greater number by light fighters but would have little chance to penetrate capital ship armor. They would be able to fit in a turret with 3 missile launchers with 6 missiles per launcher. The 9 Kg warhead would do nasty damage to an unarmored hull.
Fitting a 10- or 12-foot-long missile in a turret is not feasible unless you are flying a TARDIS.
Torpedoes in use are 21 inch and 13 ft 4 in long. They are meant to take on capital ship armor. A magazine conveyor to handle them could be held 2 wide, 5 high and in a magazine 4.5 meters long for 10 torpedoes per 3 tons of space. 3 1/3 torpedoes per ton. I have seen capital ship missiles drawn taking a space 1 square by 5 squares long. That would be 2.5 Tons per capital ship missile. When I see a submarine movie, they always show bunks above and below the torpedoes., using every cubic inch available.
The turrets I see on Traveller ships would have enough room for 3 missile tubes but no reloads in the rotating turret. Ready reloads could be held in the one ton allocated for a turret.
I could see a large magazine needing a single EP for target acquisition, Missile ejection, Turret controls and powering the conveyor. The power may be taken care of by a dedicated power battery that recharges between encounters.
I have seen different rules for magazines and ammunition feed systems on naval ships. the conveyor framework must be able to take the mass loaded while the pilot does combat maneuvering.
What system and or guesstimates do you use?

 

[vegascat]

AGM-65 Maverick
Type	Air-to-surface missile
Place of origin	United States
Specifications
Mass	210–304 kg (462–670 lb)[2]
Length	249 cm (8 ft 2 in)[2]
Diameter	30 cm (12 in)[2]
Warhead	57 kg (126 lb) WDU-20/B shaped-charge (A/B/C/D/H models)
	136 kg (300 lb) WDU-24/B penetrating blast-fragmentation (E/F/G/J/K models)
	E models utilize FMU-135/B delayed impact fuze[2]
Engine	A/B: Thiokol SR109-TC-1
	D/E/F/G/H/J/K: SR114-TC-1 (or Aerojet SR115-AJ-1) solid propellant rocket motor via a WPU-4/B or WPU-8/B propulsion section[2]
Wingspan	710 mm (2 ft 4 in)[1]
Propellant	Solid propellant[1]
Operational range	Greater than 22 km (12 nmi)[3]
Maximum speed	1,150 km/h (620 kn)[3]
Guidance system	A/B/H/J/K:: Electro-optical guidance
	D/F/G: imaging infrared guidance
	E: Laser guidance

AGM-114 Hellfire
Type	air-to-ground and earth-to-earth
Employment	anti-tank, against vehicles and buildings
Guidance system	semi-active laser, millimeter band radar
Specifications
Weight	50 kg
Length	163 cm
Width	33 cm
Diameter	17.8 cm
Operational range	500 m - 8 km
Maximum speed	1150 km/h
Engine	solid fuel
Fuse	proximity and contact
Explosive	9 kg HEAT in tandem, Metal Augmented Charge (MAC), Blast Fragmentation

 

[vegascat]

AIM-9 Sidewinder

Specifications
Mass	188 pounds (85.3 kg)[1]
Length	9 feet 11 inches (3.02 m)[1]
Diameter	5 in (127.0 mm)[1]
Warhead	WDU-17/B annular blast-fragmentation[1]
Warhead weight	20.8 lb (9.4 kg)[1]
Detonation mechanism	IR proximity fuze
Engine	Hercules/Bermite Mk. 36 solid-fuel rocket
Wingspan	11 in (279.4 mm)
Operational range	0.6 to 22 miles (1.0 to 35.4 km)
Maximum speed	Mach 2.5+[1]
Guidance system	Infrared homing (most models)
	Semi-active radar homing (AIM-9C)
Launch platform	Aircraft, naval vessels, fixed launchers, and ground vehicles

AIM-7 Sparrow Specifications Mass 510 lb (230 kg) Length 12 ft (3.7 m) Diameter 8 in (200 mm) Warhead High explosive blast-fragmentation AIM-7F/M: 88 pounds (40 kg) Engine AIM-7A/B/C – Aerojet 1.8KS7800 solid rocket AIM-7D/E – Rocketdyne MK 38/MK 52 solid rocket AIM-7F/M/P – Hercules MK-58 solid-propellant rocket motor[2] Wingspan 2 ft 8 in (0.81 m) (AIM-7A/B) Operational range AIM-7C: 22 kilometres (14 mi) AIM-7D: 39 kilometres (24 mi) AIM-7E/E2: 43 kilometres (27 mi) AIM-7F/M/P: 85 kilometres (53 mi)[3][2] Maximum speed AIM-7A/B: Mach 2.5 AIM-7C/E/F: Mach 4[4] Guidance system semi-active radar Launch platform Aircraft:

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, as long as it's within the envelope of whatever limitations on acceleration are stated explicitly in any specific Traveller edition, missiles can be any (hull) configuration.

 

[jawillroy]

What system and or guesstimates do you use?

Fantastic detail there! Thank you.

I'm using High Guard v.2. The conveyor system you describe is largely how I imagine bay missiles to work, and would tend to support a rationale that a magazine is integral to bay missiles. Similarly, turret missiles with reloads in the turret (and perhaps a bucket brigade of crew sending missiles from the hold, or what have you) might allow for High Guard's "Magic Missiles."

Seems like none of that would really apply for small craft with fixed mount racks. So *if* we consider that every missile attack = an actual shot, then it seems there ought to be some limit to how many shots such craft can fire before going home to mother for more toys.

So I don't know what my magazine guesstimate is now, except that bay missiles have integral magazines and therefore don't need to track expenditure as long as fleet resupply is possible. I'd handwave that one ton of magazine would be required for every missile rack on a turret - so, three tons magazine for a triple missile turret? Maybe?

It matters more at the adventurer level. How many missiles do you want to cram into your wee ship? Are you stacking them under your bunks? Are they taking up hold space?

 

[vegascat]

How many people do you know that could sleep with live explosives under their bunk that are not Submariners, Ammo or Ordinance troops? Missiles that would be stored in the cargo bay would be in shipping containers and would take up about 6 times the space as a missile in a magazine conveyor system. The missiles in the shipping containers would not be in ready to fire condition. Batteries would be removed from the body, sensors would be covered to protect them, Guidance programing may need updating, especially if the missile was not updated with your ship data. It would be a bad day for the missile spread you fired at a corsair turned to the nearest unrecognized ship to lock on. Preparing a missile for use is a time-consuming job currently taking over 8 man hours per missile. This includes break out from storage, Assembly for use, bench testing, programming, and loading on a transport missile trailer. Delivery to the flightline and loading on an aircraft and connecting to the aircrafts data ports are all more man hours.

The days immediately following September 11 2001 were ridiculously busy for military bases worldwide. Weapons have a storage shelf life and a much shorter service life when they are out of storage ready for use. The Pentagon was in a state of panic when they discovered that they could only put 4 fighters up to stop hijacked airliners, and those 4 fighters had no missiles and target practice solid shot bullets that would make 20mm holes through whatever they fired at. They should have been loaded with HE shells instead of solid ball ammo. Remember, the line between a rifle and a cannon is if it can fire explosive ammo. Any projectile under 20mm would lose destructive energy if metal was replaced by explosive. It Is more effective to put more explosive behind a slug than in the slug. The impact energy of a 12,7mm or 50 cal. Bullet at over a mile is surprisingly awesome.

Weapons loaded on a fighter that is maneuvering experiencing 6 to 10 Gs of force is hard on the life span of those weapons. A high percentage of malfunctions on fighters are due to bundles of wires rubbing together or against the airframe. Plastic insulation gets rubbed through causing intermittent shorts. This would happen on missiles while bullets would bounce around in the drum or feed conveyors causing the bullets to loosen or seat deeper or higher in the brass causing misfires. At worst, a bullet could separate from the brass dumping powder inside the ammo drum soon to cause a fire in the drum. The fire would cause a magazine detonation that would be spectacular. Good reasons not to fly live munitions too long.

A properly designed missile magazine would hold all missiles tightly reducing vibrations to a minimum and would be located directly under the hull with a blowout plate to direct the energy of an exploding magazine out of the ship rather than keeping that destructive energy inside the hull. Imagine the effect of a fully loaded missile magazine detonating energy expanding inside the hull of your favorite ship. That would be the energy of 100 warheads and propellant charges all combined as one expanding blast wave. A neighboring ship would see a colorfully bright flash were the ship was, leaving no doubt of the futility of searching for survivors.

 

[Grav_Moped]

How many people do you know that could sleep with live explosives under their bunk that are not Submariners, Ammo or Ordinance troops?

Ammo troops would not generally be billeted in the bomb dump.

You're not going to get inhabited building distance separation from the magazines on a starship! It will probably be a struggle to get sufficient K factor to protect the crew -- but with blow-out hull panels and armored magazine bulkheads, it's possible (and the rules imply this).

Submariners, yeah. And it's not a terrible analogy for starships, especially military ones.

 

[BlackBat242]

The eventual end of the CT missile rules chain was Special Supplement 3.

This amplified and elaborated certain facets of missiles and their use in Traveller (size/mass/acceleration/maneuver/warhead types/number in a turret/number per dton of magazine/etc).

It originally appeared as a pull-out section in the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society, issue number 21 (January 1, 1984).

 

[vegascat]

The 5E rules show 12 Missiles per ton or 20 sandcaster barrels per ton. Torpedoes were 1 per 2.25 tons.

When the situation warranted it, certain things were allowed to keep the mission moving. Short naps in among stacks of HE bombs became normal. It was not a normal or safest practice, but it allowed what we had to do.

During Desert Shield, the work load was 13 to 16 hours per day or night 7 days straight with no time off allowed including weekends. Crew chiefs would let their crews take short naps or meal breaks in the storage pads and buildings while waiting for the next truck or trailer to roll up to be loaded. This allowed the work pace to continue week after week and month after month. At the main USAF munitions depot in Germany, we moved more weight of munitions from storage to railcars in 4 months than was dropped in Europe during WWII. We had a bit over 100 Enlisted USAF troops with the Army 37th Trans supplying trucks and drivers. When the situation changed, Operation Desert Shield to Desert Storm, we gave a sigh of relief as the work schedule went back to 5-day 8-hour work shifts. That was a tremendous number of bombs, fins, fuses, missiles, bullets, shells and other bits and pieces that modern warfare requires.

 

[BlackBat242]

My Father (at that time not yet retired from the Southern Pacific Railroad Police Department) pulled a LOT of overtime in that period, babysitting the munitions trains that stopped in the yards (Ogden, Ut) and checking tracks out to a certain distance from the yards for potential tampering.

As the only RPO in that area for the SP he couldn't "not show up", but he coordinated heavily with the UPRR RPO to ensure one of them was always there and checking all munitions trains, no matter which line it was assigned to.

 

[jawillroy]

The eventual end of the CT missile rules chain was Special Supplement 3.

This amplified and elaborated certain facets of missiles and their use in Traveller (size/mass/acceleration/maneuver/warhead types/number in a turret/number per dton of magazine/etc).

It originally appeared as a pull-out section in the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society, issue number 21 (January 1, 1984).

I had such high hopes for SS3; I found it raised more questions than it resolved, and left different ambiguities to replace those that it cleared up!

 

[kilemall]

Relevant CT bits from the Striker starship crossover rules is that the missile bays have effectively 1 missile per dton. So 50 ton bays have 50 missiles and 100 ton bays have 100 missiles. Turret missiles are 15cm in diameter and bay missiles are 25cm.

I further worked out that a 50 ton bay attack is equivalent to 15 turret missiles and 100 ton bay attacks are equivalent to 30 turret missiles.

That leaves one with the simple expedient option that bay missiles are either 7.5x or 15x the size of turret missiles. If the former it would be 2 missiles per 50 ton attack and 4 missiles per 100 ton attack. If the latter, 1 and 2 missiles respectively.