Smallcraft in 1977 Book 2 [p17]

[AnotherDilbert]

* two tons for the pilot's seat and 3 jump seats
* 3 tons for 27 passengers

That will make it very difficult to make the smaller ships work...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

5 tons for the drive => leaves 1 ton for pilot + 30 passengers.

Note that the Shuttle is 3 G, so needs something between A drives and B drives, so something like 7.5 tons of drives.

 

[mike wightman]

The Life Boat and the Cutter are described the same; with a "passenger" capacity.

The "passenger" capacity is a life support capacity, see the bottom of p17.

Presumably it includes any crew.


If you want your Life Boat to go anywhere specific, you need a Pilot. If we use the rest of CT, that can of course be a robot (brain).

Read the life boat again - carefully. Wish I could quote it but I can not be bothered to type it all out. It details the passenger complement, the low berth capacity and then final states that it can carry a total of 23 persons - it doesn't say in addition to the crew.

To describe the occupants as passengers in the life support section also implies there are no crew.

 

[robject]

Sure, we can build a new smallcraft design system, based on the LBB2'77 system. We would need a completely new drive table and drive potential table, like in MgT1.

But it is not the LBB2'77 system.

And we already have a better system in LBB5 (or MgT1 if you prefer lettered drives), so why bother?

THREE thoughts on that.

(0) "We would need a completely new drive table and drive potential table"

According to B2'77, the DPT already extends downward, we just don't know HOW it does so. I have a preference which doesn't require additional drives.


(1) "But it is not the LBB2'77 system"

That really depends. If it essentially produces the same output as the LBB2'77 system, then you could say it essentially is it (for some definition of "is").


(2) "Why bother?"

(a) The exercise itself is enjoyable.

(b) Reverse-engineering this has enriched the way I think about ship design in general, and Traveller5 "ACS" ship design in particular (which by the way does allow small craft design, with outputs very close to LBB2'81).

(c) I learned that Book 2 ship design originally had its own small craft design principles. I now know that for sure, and I know how it was being thought about. I better understand the problems they had with it.

(d) There's something good and useful about trying to solve problems myself, when I have the inclination to do it, rather than having someone serve something to me on a platter -- again, when I have the desire to do it.

I don't recommend (d) for very much, though. In this case, for me, it applies.

 

[robject]

Note that the Shuttle is 3 G, so needs something between A drives and B drives, so something like 7.5 tons of drives.

Actually, '77 mentions that all small craft are "in accordance with the starship design rules". Therefore, there may be missing rows in the drive potential table that go something like this:

M-Drive A Performance
To 35 tons: 6G
To 45 tons: 5G. (10 tons from 35->45)
To 65 tons: 4G. (20 tons from 45->65)
To 95 tons: 3G. (30 tons from 65->95)

Going out on a limb here, but it's certainly easier. Asserting 1/2 A and the like not only requires new drive rows, but still requires an extension to the Drive Potential Table.

In other words, the DPT extends downward regardless, so I'll try to make it work without changing something else.

And yes, the life boat is a problem.

 

[robject]

Read the life boat again - carefully. Wish I could quote it but I can not be bothered to type it all out. It details the passenger complement, the low berth capacity and then final states that it can carry a total of 23 persons - it doesn't say in addition to the crew.

To describe the occupants as passengers in the life support section also implies there are no crew.

That's "easily" "fixed" by downgrading from a cockpit to just the pilot station.

Life Boat
(20)  Hull
 -5    ELBs
 -5    fuel
 -3    Rob's pilot station + 3 passenger seats
 -5    M+P "A" drives

2 tons left over. Or call the pilot station 5 tons.

The drive rules for the life boat are unusual, I'll agree. But I'm not so eager to deconstruct the drives.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Read the life boat again - carefully. Wish I could quote it but I can not be bothered to type it all out. It details the passenger complement, the low berth capacity and then final states that it can carry a total of 23 persons - it doesn't say in addition to the crew.

Neither specifies any crew, yet the rest of the rules say they need it.

Life Boat: The life boat is an emergency device used to allow escape from dan- ger, disaster, or calamity in space-going situations. Displacing 20 tons, it is capable of 1 G acceleration and can carry up to three conscious passengers. In addition, it contains five emergency low berths, each capable of holding four persons in cold sleep (all occupants of the same berth share the same survival throw upon revival: throw 6+ to survive with normal DMs as applicable). Thus a life boat can carry a total of 23 persons. Fuel tankage is 5 tons. Life boats are unarmed, and have a base price of CR 14,000,000.

Pinnace: The pinnace is a larger version of the ship’s boat, capable of 5 Gs acceleration, carrying up to 8 passengers and displacing 40 tons. It has a fuel tank capacity of 12 tons and an equal cargo capacity. Pinnaces are usually armed with one beam or pulse laser in a non-turret mount. In some cases (about 15%), a missile launch rack is installed instead. Base price is CR 20,000,000.

Presumably crew is part of the "passenger" capacity.

 

[robject]

Presumably crew is part of the "passenger" capacity.

That's possible. I assumed that the pilot is implied, but that works too.

And @Mike - yes the rules are clear that every small craft needs a pilot. Automation was not considered at all.

I think some reflection will yield at least two reasons why this is so.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

(0) "We would need a completely new drive table and drive potential table"

According to B2'77, the DPT already extends downward, we just don't know HOW it does so. I have a preference which doesn't require additional drives.

We need a full new table for small craft to make a generic system, e.g. what drive combo do I need to make a 35 ton craft with 3 G?

(1) "But it is not the LBB2'77 system"

That really depends. If it essentially produces the same output as the LBB2'77 system, then you could say it essentially is it (for some definition of "is").

But your home built craft, built with your house-ruled system will never be really comparable to the LBB2 standard designs, and not obviously usable in anyone else's campaign.

(2) "Why bother?"

(a) The exercise itself is enjoyable.

I agree, that is enough, and the reason we are all here.

I prefer to build craft using the standard system, to maintain compatibility with all the published material, but that is just me.

 

[aramis]

Marc has, in the past, made provisions for updated CDs.
Or, if one prefers, USB sticks.
Email him and ask about it; ISTR that it was $5 for an updated CD of X when buying a new one of Y.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

M-Drive A Performance
To 35 tons: 6G
To 45 tons: 5G. (10 tons from 35->45)
To 65 tons: 4G. (20 tons from 45->65)
To 95 tons: 3G. (30 tons from 65->95)

Then it is overspecced for 100 tons...

I would use:
100 tons, 2 G = 200 tonG (thrust)
_67 tons, 3 G = 200 tonG
_50 tons, 4 G = 200 tonG
_40 tons, 5 G = 200 tonG
_33 tons, 6 G = 200 tonG

 

[robject]

Compatibility is extremely important for publishing.

That said, CT'77 is so far gone that there's no compatibility concerns.

Plus, I am not planning on publishing for CT'77. XD

....

DPT

Then it is overspecced for 100 tons...

I would use:
100 tons, 2 G = 200 tonG (thrust)
_67 tons, 3 G = 200 tonG
_50 tons, 4 G = 200 tonG
_40 tons, 5 G = 200 tonG
_33 tons, 6 G = 200 tonG

Very nice, thank you!


EMPLACEMENTS

Now for an error. I did not account for emplacements.

According to page 17, an emplacement consumes 2 tons of space. And, Pinnaces and Cutters come with an emplacement.

So I need to adjust accordingly.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

1. Life Boat. 20 tons, 1G, 3 passengers, 5 ELBs, 5 tons fuel.
2. Ship's Boat. 30 tons, 6G, 5 passengers, 12 tons cargo, 9 tons fuel.
3. Pinnace. 40 tons, 5G, 8 passengers, 12 tons cargo, 12 tons fuel.
4. Cutter. 50 tons, 4G, 12 passengers, 15 tons cargo, 15 tons fuel.
5. Shuttle. 95 tons, 3G, 30 passengers, 80 tons cargo, 9 tons fuel. "Capable of cargo transfer in vacuum."

Pretend the drive combo used is the A+A = 5 tons. Deal with the shuttle drive separately....

(Lifebt)  5 tons = cockpit + 3 pass.
(Boat)    14 tons = cockpit + 3 pass + 2 pass + 3t extra goodies.
(Pinnace) 11 tons = cockpit + 3 pass + 4 pass.
(Cutter)  15 tons = cockpit + 3 pass + 9 pass + 3t extra goodies.

Note a weapon installation takes 2 Dt according to the Boat description.

The Lifeboat presumably has smaller drives, and the Shuttle larger drives.

Life: 20 t -  2 t[drives] -  5 t[fuel] - ~5 t[ELB]         =  8 tons for  3 people.
Boat: 30 t -  5 t[drives] -  9 t[fuel] - 12 t[cargo]       =  4 tons for  5 people.
Pinn: 40 t -  5 t[drives] - 12 t[fuel] - 12 t[cargo] - 2 t =  9 tons for  8 people.
Cutt: 50 t -  5 t[drives] - 15 t[fuel] - 15 t[cargo] - 2 t = 13 tons for 12 people.
Shut: 95 t - ~7 t[drives] -  9 t[fuel] - 80 t[cargo]       = -1 tons for 30 people. Oops.

Agreed, the Shuttle does not work.

Otherwise it basically looks like 1 ton per person, not 10 people per ton. Even the Lifeboat works if an ELB is 2 tons (=4 low berths).

That would make the Shuttle work with ~50 tons of cargo capacity.

 

[robject]

I've updated the draft "rules" I started on page 2:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=621608&postcount=12

I reworked the examples from the text, correcting a number of errors because I do make errors.

The pinnace has a special "non-turret" emplacement, which I have not generalized. That's the source of the old "fixed mount" gun rule abused in Solomani starship designs.

The Life Boat and Cutter both have two tons unaccounted for.

 

[robject]

The Lifeboat presumably has smaller drives, and the Shuttle larger drives.

Life: 20 t -  2 t[drives] -  5 t[fuel] - ~5 t[ELB]         =  8 tons for  3 people.
Boat: 30 t -  5 t[drives] -  9 t[fuel] - 12 t[cargo]       =  4 tons for  5 people.
Pinn: 40 t -  5 t[drives] - 12 t[fuel] - 12 t[cargo] - 2 t =  9 tons for  8 people.
Cutt: 50 t -  5 t[drives] - 15 t[fuel] - 15 t[cargo] - 2 t = 13 tons for 12 people.
Shut: 95 t - ~7 t[drives] -  9 t[fuel] - 80 t[cargo]       = -1 tons for 30 people. Oops.

If you keep the "A" drives for the life boat, it lines up better.

And the pinnace gun is in a "non-turret mount", so 1 ton or zero tons, your choice.

And we can drag in the 71 ton cargo hold of the shuttle if we need more wiggle room.

Life: 20 t -  5 t[drives] -  5 t[fuel] - 5 t[ELB]          =  5 tons /  3 people.
Boat: 30 t -  5 t[drives] -  9 t[fuel] - 12 t[cargo]       =  4 tons /  5 people.
Pinn: 40 t -  5 t[drives] - 12 t[fuel] - 12 t[cargo]       = 11 tons /  8 people.
Cutt: 50 t -  5 t[drives] - 15 t[fuel] - 15 t[cargo] - 2 t = 13 tons / 12 people.
Shut: 95 t -  5 t[drives] -  9 t[fuel] - 71 t[cargo]       = 10 tons / 30 people.

Life Boat
Tons Component
---- ----------------
(20) Hull
  5  A drives (1G*)
  5  ELBs
  5  Fuel
  5  Etc + 3 pass
---- ----------------
 20

Ship's Boat
Tons Component
---- ----------------
(30) Hull
  5  A drives (6G)
 12  Cargo
  9  Fuel
  4  Etc + 5 pass
---- ----------------
 30

Pinnace
Tons Component
---- ----------------
(40) Hull
  5  A drives (5G)
 12  Cargo
 12  Fuel
 11  Etc + 8 pass
---- ----------------
 40

Cutter
Tons Component
---- ----------------
(50) Hull
  5  A drives (4G)
 15  Cargo
 15  Fuel
 13  Etc + 12 pass
  2  turret
---- ----------------
 50

Shuttle
Tons Component
---- ----------------
(95) Hull
  5  A drives (3G)
 71  Cargo***
  9  Fuel
 10  Etc + 30 pass
---- ----------------
 95

 

[coliver988]

...The Life Boat and Cutter both have two tons unaccounted for.

that's where they store all those repair supplies!

 

[robject]

that's where they store all those repair supplies!

Quite right!!

I think Dilbert is helping me realize that small cabins and couches (and cramped couches) were a part of B2'77 even though they weren't mentioned.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If you keep the "A" drives for the life boat, it lines up better.

But it only has 10% of the thrust of an A drive package. With an A drive it would be capable of about 10 G.

And the pinnace gun is in a "non-turret mount", so 1 ton or zero tons, your choice.

The 2 ton Boat installation is no turret either:

Ship's boats are usually unarmed, but have provision for the attachment of one beam or pulse laser; no turret is used, but the installation consumes 2 tons of cargo capacity.

And we can drag in the 71 ton cargo hold of the shuttle if we need more wiggle room.

I would not push the Shuttle too far. It has to be at least somewhat close to a 100 ton non-spaceship built using the LBB2'77 system.

YY-1202211-000000-00000-0        MCr 9,1         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                           TL=12
                          Cargo=40 Fuel=20 EP=2 Agility=2

Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                    40        18,1
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined      100 Dt          1          100            
Configuration       Cone               2                      3  
Scoops              Streamlined                                  

Engineering                                        10            
Manoeuvre D         A                  2    1       1         4  
Power Plant         A                  2    1       4         8  
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-0, 4 weeks                   20            
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/1                1    1       1         2  
                                                                 
Staterooms                                  1       4         0,5
                                                                 
Cargo                                              40            
                                                                 
Empty hardpoint                             1                 0,1
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 9,05             Sum:      40         9,1

Note 40 tons of payload and the cost of MCr 9.

 

[robject]

But it only has 10% of the thrust of an A drive package. With an A drive it would be capable of about 10 G.

(1) It would be 6G, since that's the max in 1977.
(2) The secret of the Drive Limiter is unsolved at this time.

The 2 ton Boat installation is no turret either

I figure it is a turret + fire control.


Re the shuttle, since the 80 ton cargo bay seems impossible, a retcon can be any amount; for example, 71 tons (which is what 1981 used).

 

[robject]

And as for the shuttle.

Shuttle QS-9A30 Columbia MCr24.4

Overtonnage: 4.5 tons (95 tons)

   Tons	 Component                          	  MCr	Notes
-------	 -----------------------------------	-----	--------------------
     90	 Airframe Hull, lifters, 0 a/l free 	  8.3	A, lifters, 0 a/l free
      1	 Landing legs with pads             	    1	
    2.6	 Plant Fuel (one month)             	    0	one month
      7	 PowerPlant-3 (B)                   	    7	P 3
      3	 Maneuver Drive-3 (B)               	    6	3 G
      1	 Fuel Scoops                        	  0.1	100 t/hr
      1	 Fuel Intakes                       	  0.1	40 t/hr
      1	 Computer Model/1 std               	  1.5	
      6	 Spacious Bridge                    	  0.4	1cc 2op 0ws
     72	 Free space.                        	    0