Breaking In with Forgery

[Old_Dr_Skull]

I was putting together a list of gear for an upcoming game, and wanted to put in an "Electronic Lock Pick", a tool that allowed characters to "Pick" locks that had a retinal scan, finger-print scan, voice-code etc. At first I was going to use "Electronics" as the skill by which the tool could be used, but I ran into a problem: Rogues, who were likely to want to use the device, don't have Electronics skill in their career.

What I finally came up with was to use "Forgery". And the more I thought about it, the more I thought that computer hacking in general is often really a form of Forgery as much as anything else. Forging paper documents, now seems so 20th century, and for me, Forgery Skill will now be, at High Tech, the skill used for computer crime.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Speaking from experience...

Using an Electronic Lockpick is not Forgery, trust me. I know.

What it is bloody straight up Lockpicking. Sure it is electronic, so? Breaking Locks is why you hired that damned Burglar in the first place and didn't do it yourself. I mean really, sir. I am a Patron, I use Travellers to do my dirty work, while I do the Duke's.

The Rouge also can be assumed to have Level-0 operational skill since Automatic John told them how to use the thing after he got done building it. Automatic John of course has the Electronics skill to build it, but it takes a Rouge's skill set to properly employ it.

Remember don't confuse build with use. :devil:

If not Lockpick, then it breaks down either hidey-sneaky or it is social engineering to get into position to employ it as either JOT-N or E-Pick Ops-0. If all else fails and you can't find a specific enough skill to suit you and the player, well then Ref, your basic Int or Edu roll, v. the Lock. Say 10+ with a DM for characteristic above A ought to fly. Just off the top of my head.

Wait till Hans and Bill get here, though. They'll fix you. They fix everything.

Laterness,
Craig.

 

[McPerth]

I guess that's why intrusion skill was created in MT.

But as we are in CT, and there's mno skill for it, I'd probably will use JOT and previous experience as modifiers (e.g. any one been in intelligence in Mercenary or HG will have positive modifiers, as he's likely to have learnt more about them that anyone trained as combat specialist)

 

[far-trader]

In my opinion not Electronics (unless building one), nor Forgery. This is one of those cases in CT for zero-level skill assignment for the game. IF the player hasn't already begged for and gotten the option to create new skill.

The way I usually handled lockpicks (the tool) in CT was if the character got a set of picks they knew the basics at least (Lockpick-0) and could improve the skill from there. Same with the disguise kit. And I seem to recall some other tools as well that I presumed an inclusion of zero level skill.

I think that's the way you should go. A Rogue could be reasonably able to acquire a lockpick (electronic or otherwise) and have the minimum experience with it to use it without penalty (level zero skill) and be able to improve on that (via experience* or ref award).

* personally I figure the rule for Skill Improvement should follow the Weapon Expertise example so that choosing to improve a zero-level skill results in a permanent level-1 skill. As an example in this case said Rogue (if my PC) would upon mustering out buy a lockpick kit(s) and a disguise kit (acquired in career) and has background skill (level-0) with both (Lockpicking-0, Disguise-0). Then I would immediately (post career gen and prior game play) undertake a brief criminal life (4 years of honing my craft) raising both skills to level-1 permanently. But that's me :devil:

 

[Omnivore]

For me that is the beauty of classic Traveller. The skills given in the LBBs covered the basics and covering special cases was a breeze as you show.

 

[DangerousThing]

For me that is the beauty of classic Traveller. The skills given in the LBBs covered the basics and covering special cases was a breeze as you show.

OK. Would you please show me the main skill of an Intelligence Analyst?

Generally people would use Computer-n or Admin, but those are just tools. The analyst himself has a skill that I define as:

Analyst: The skill of looking through multiple sets of data. The Analyst can value the data (either for sale or for prioritization purposes). The Analyst can draw conclusions from the multiple sets of data that are not present in any single set.​

Even in T5 I wasn't able to define this well in a group of skills, though I did a good try.

 

[77topaz]

OK. Would you please show me the main skill of an Intelligence Analyst?

Generally people would use Computer-n or Admin, but those are just tools. The analyst himself has a skill that I define as:

Analyst: The skill of looking through multiple sets of data. The Analyst can value the data (either for sale or for prioritization purposes). The Analyst can draw conclusions from the multiple sets of data that are not present in any single set.​

Even in T5 I wasn't able to define this well in a group of skills, though I did a good try.

Isn't there an Analyse skill?

 

[Omnivore]

Actually neither Computer nor Admin skill are just tools. Computer, for example, allows writing of programs, and take it from a programmer - that's not just tool use.

To me such detail is needless, but perhaps to you it is necessary for an adventure, you are the GM: allow players to choose it as a cascade specialty of Admin skill or any other skill you deem suitable.

 

[DangerousThing]

Actually neither Computer nor Admin skill are just tools. Computer, for example, allows writing of programs, and take it from a programmer - that's not just tool use.

As a former programmer/systems analyst, I didn't mean it the way you seem to have taken it.

I meant that the skills of Computer and Admin are tools for an Analyst to use. Just as the skill of Computer is a tool for programmers to use.

And systems analysis is *not* the same as programming. And my reading of the "Admin" skill from LBB1 leads me to believe that it gives competence in dealing with a bureaucracy, not analysis. Perhaps simple data analysis, but that is *not* what either a systems analyst nor an intelligence analyst does.

To me such detail is needless, but perhaps to you it is necessary for an adventure, you are the GM: allow players to choose it as a cascade specialty of Admin skill or any other skill you deem suitable.

I would not have Analyst cascade off of any skill. I was just using this as an example of something the skills did not cover. I created a character in T5 by stretching some skills, but I thought that it would make the character much easier by adding one skill so that I didn't have to stretch three other skills to do it.

 

[McPerth]

I'd not make any skill as analyst (except maybe for NPCs*). I see it more or less like what is said in the Tactics Skill (Bk1 Page 22): strategy is the realm of the players, rather than the characters. I see analysis more or less like strategy in this sentence, though I must admit some times the referee must give some advice on things characters are assumed to know, while players may not (such as naval procedures if th character is a former Naval Officer, etc...).

EDIT * I remember having read Norris stats somewhere (sorry, I don't find it right now, so I cannot give exact reference), and he was listed Strategy among his skills

 

[BytePro]

A little analysis on the OP's specific issue:

Electronic lock pick is a tool.

• Using tools can be affected by, or dependent on, an attribute and/or skill.
• Performing a task can be affected by or dependent on tools...

You are designing the tool - and decide what is required to use a tool or perform a particular task. The tool may completely overcome a lack of skill and general toolkits or impromptu 'tools'. Whether or not and how much experience would apply to using the tool is dependent on the tool, TL and situation.

In the case of the Electronic Lockpick - how does one have to interface with the lock? I.e. knowledgeably attach wires, fiber cables, pickups, etc. Or is it just point or 'plugin' and press the big 'Pick' button. This would be very situational and largely dependent on TL of device and 'lock' and setting assumptions, IMO.

Without the tool - this would relate to a task that would typically be Electronics with an electronics toolkit and INT/EDU. (Or STR and damage check, hehe.)

With the tool and typical (i.e., 'standard') locks, I can see it just being an INT/EDU check if the tool is not damaged.

Situationally, if the lock is not typical - then Electronics might be deemed a requirement or giving a DM to overcome a higher target roll.

AS to careers - I could definitely see a Thief having a skill set that might include a special 'Lockpicking' skill. Since the first would be custom, why not the second - and neither preclude using existing skills (Mechanical, Electronics, etc.). For existing careers, I don't see a need for new skills to cover lock picking.

In RL, I have successfully 'picked' both electronic and mechanic locks - numerous times. Out of necessity, not as a thief. Career wise I am a Programmer Analyst (seems common on this thread!), but I have decades of Electronic and Mechanic knowledge and experience. The most common tool for picking any type of lock - a paper clip or two. Occasionally augmented with coins and a pocket knife or pair of pliers. Exceptionally with meters, scopes, fiber probes, soldering iron, cutters, torches... but those where generally for longer term solutions for others to repeatably use.

 

[McPerth]

Another thing that may be featured in picking tools is the difference among TLs from the lockpick tools to the lock.

This may be positive (if you're using a higher TL electronics to descipher a lower TL code, I guess it will be easier, though I'm not sure, I'm not in the computers as a job) or negative (trying to pick a medieval lock with a 21th century master key, I guess it won't be too helpful...).

Of course, if it will give you a negative modifier, most players will discard the tool and just try without it...

 

[Bob Weaver]

OK. Would you please show me the main skill of an Intelligence Analyst?

Generally people would use Computer-n or Admin, but those are just tools. The analyst himself has a skill that I define as:

Analyst: The skill of looking through multiple sets of data. The Analyst can value the data (either for sale or for prioritization purposes). The Analyst can draw conclusions from the multiple sets of data that are not present in any single set.​

Even in T5 I wasn't able to define this well in a group of skills, though I did a good try.

I suggest that you make Intelligence Analyst an aspect of the character's EDU stat, combined with his in-game experience. Intel is largely a matter of experience: have they read/studied this field, have they had any established reason to have dealt with this kind of data sets before? Analysis requires one to recognize patterns and associations in the mass of data, which can't happen without a solid understanding of the context of said data.
So, set the target number high or low, depending on how obscure or detailed is the actionable intelligence that they need to find in the data. Give a bonus for in-story background in the field, and for EDU of a set level or above. I've often used [STAT/5, round down] to create a Stat-based DM - if you want to be more generous with the DMs it could be STAT/3.
I've been monkeying with including espionage into one PC group's activities, this discussion gives me ideas for how to do that without having to create new careers or skills. Thanks, guys!

Cheers,
Bob W.

 

[BytePro]

Mongoose Traveller got me tinkering with task checks and DMs a lot. I really liked the stat and skill handling along with the enhanced chargen. But I still like CT overall - so I adapted the parts I liked to CT (returning to CT after playing a few games of MgT). [Though right now I am tinkering with a 3D6 house system...]

MgT system is available in the Developer's Pack at http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/r...ooks-accessories/traveller-core-rulebook.html.

You might also want to check out Supplement Four's Universal Game Mechanic at http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=10910&highlight=UGM and Rule 68A at http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=242946#post242946

I seem to recall another one on this forum (in PDF) that related to a universal mechanic with difficulty and success levels much like MgT.

 

[Old_Dr_Skull]

What I ended up doing was to make Forgery a cascade on the charactger generation tables, if you got Forgery result, you can choose Forgery, Intrusion or Disguise. That seemed to tie things up nicely.

 

[aldemps]

With regards to a Rogue not having the opportunity to obtain the Electronics skill, I was looking through my copy of Citizens of The Imperium the other day & noticed that I had crossed out Ships Tactics in the Advanced Education table & wrote in Electronics.

It never made sense to me that a character who had no piloting skills would have this - I had also crossed out the bottom Vehicle skill in the Flyer Service Skills table & added Ship Tactics (to represent training in air to air combat).

 

[Bob Weaver]

With regards to a Rogue not having the opportunity to obtain the Electronics skill, I was looking through my copy of Citizens of The Imperium the other day & noticed that I had crossed out Ships Tactics in the Advanced Education table & wrote in Electronics.

I've done that as well when I wanted to introduce a new skill into a service -picked the skill that will be the least missed and replaced it with the one I want to add. But lately I've been thinking more along the lines of "how can I associate the task a PC wants to try to an existing skill instead of inventing a brand new one?"

Cheers, and welcome to the boards!

Bob W.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I meant that the skills of Computer and Admin are tools for an Analyst to use. Just as the skill of Computer is a tool for programmers to use.

So would you say admin, pilot, gunnery, and tactics are tools for a ships captain to use? Is there a need for a separate "Captain" skill?

Also, wouldn't analyst be very dependent on the data? Medical skill might be helpful when analyzing medical data. Some engineering skill would probably be useful if analyzing performance specs for different maneuver drives.

I was putting together a list of gear for an upcoming game, and wanted to put in an "Electronic Lock Pick", a tool that allowed characters to "Pick" locks that had a retinal scan, finger-print scan, voice-code etc. At first I was going to use "Electronics" as the skill by which the tool could be used, but I ran into a problem: Rogues, who were likely to want to use the device, don't have Electronics skill in their career.

What I finally came up with was to use "Forgery". And the more I thought about it, the more I thought that computer hacking in general is often really a form of Forgery as much as anything else. Forging paper documents, now seems so 20th century, and for me, Forgery Skill will now be, at High Tech, the skill used for computer crime.

I've been thinking more along the lines of "how can I associate the task a PC wants to try to an existing skill instead of inventing a brand new one?"

That's the way I try to look at things too. The more skills added, the weaker the characters become; lacking the required skill or having a broader range of skills at lower skill levels.

Characteristics and skills are not the whole of who the character is. How about things not part of charge, like stubborn, lazy, diligent, and so on? Personality can play a large part of how a character handles a situation. Some things may be applicable based on chargen but not spelled out with skill levels. For example, Army and Marine characters only get Admin and Leader if they have 8+ EDU and roll on the Advanced education table. What about the 5 term guy with EDU lower than 8 but they got a commission and several ranks during their career. A Lt Colonel with no Admin or Leader skill?

Should some abilities be implied based on things other than actual skill levels? Shouldn't that 5 term thief living in a high tech world be able to "pick" electronic locks as well as mechanical ones?

--- Next thought ---
It doesn't matter if it is a mechanical or electronic lock, it doesn't take a thief to kick in a locked door, break out a window, or cut or blast a hole to gain entry. Does it even take a thief to hit someone over the head and take their key or electronic swipe card? Maybe just kidnap a person with access and force them to let you in. Bribe someone. Blackmail. Generate a false fire alarm and dress as fire fighters. Lots of ways to get in.

Shouldn't thievery and lock picking mean more than just gaining entry. It's about getting in past security measures without being detected. Does it matter if the thief is using mechanical lock picking tools or electronic lock picking tools?

 

[Carlobrand]

I was putting together a list of gear for an upcoming game, and wanted to put in an "Electronic Lock Pick", a tool that allowed characters to "Pick" locks that had a retinal scan, finger-print scan, voice-code etc. At first I was going to use "Electronics" as the skill by which the tool could be used, but I ran into a problem: Rogues, who were likely to want to use the device, don't have Electronics skill in their career.

What I finally came up with was to use "Forgery". And the more I thought about it, the more I thought that computer hacking in general is often really a form of Forgery as much as anything else. Forging paper documents, now seems so 20th century, and for me, Forgery Skill will now be, at High Tech, the skill used for computer crime.

A tool that can fool a retinal scan needs to be able to emulate a particular human eye from the "point of view" of the retinal scanner. A tool that can fool a fingerprint scan needs to trick the fingerprint scanner into "thinking" it "sees" a particular fingerprint. These strike me as problems in graphics and simulation, and not necessarly straightforward - they may take advantage of particular details of how those locking devices detect retinal images or fingerprints. Similarly, fooling a voice-code is a question of producing a specific pattern of sounds that satisfies the device's "expectations". Knowledge of how those locking devices detect and process their sensory data strikes me as key to figuring out how to defeat them. Perhaps your rogue should use computer skill when operating your electronic lockpick.