Canon 2: Empire Distinctives

[robject]

Once again, I need some references, because I need to be schooled!

The Zhodani Consulate

The Consulate is TL14 - that's what I've always understood. And yet, Zdhant is TL15. So are its warships TL14 or TL15? Can it be said that ANY proportion of the Consulate's military is TL15? What is that proportion?

Teleporting commandos. How many of these does the Consulate have?

Warbots. To what degree do Consulate forces rely on warbots?

The Sword Worlds

I think Gram is TL12, right? I own Hans' book, but I don't have it here at work. What is the SW naval doctrine? Do they use battle riders? Small jump "fighters"? Are they interestingly militarily differentiated from the other empires?

The Darrian Confederation

Setting aside the Special Arm, what makes Darrian navy ships special? I understand that they're TL15, which is unusual for such a small empire. But are there aspects that differentiate them from the Imperium?

The Aslan Hierate

Being clan-based, I think their navies are more like a "colonial navy". Any thoughts here?

The Vargr

Despite their bad press, the Vargr DO have a lot of empires - some of them are larger than the Darrians and Sword Worlds put together. Yes, we can define "empire" rather loosely with the Vargr, but then.... well the Imperium itself seems rather loose in the way it gives its member worlds lots of leeway.

(And, really, even though this is Space Opera, I think the setting assumes that interstellar empires are incapable of micromanagement in the first place. They HAVE to give member worlds freedom.)

Anyway, the Vargr have their own psychology, so they probably have their own idea for military organization and strategy and ship design.

 

[Condottiere]

The Darrians subcon warship construction to Imperium yards.

The Vargr tech base is highly variable and volatile, with periods of stability being exceptional.

 

[flykiller]

Teleporting commandos. How many of these does the Consulate have?

as a portion of the population, not many. but concentrated into a military structure and then concentrated for deployment, probably as many as they want.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Hi Rob,

I think the overall answer to your question is that specifics are not really available. Most things are nebulous with little in the way of actual, specific numbers.

Once again, I need some references, because I need to be schooled!

The Zhodani Consulate

The Consulate is TL14 - that's what I've always understood. And yet, Zdhant is TL15. So are its warships TL14 or TL15? Can it be said that ANY proportion of the Consulate's military is TL15? What is that proportion?

I think it was Don who corrected me awhile back when I started collecting information on the Wiki, but the line then was that all of the major race polities are at TL-14 to 15 and researching AKA pushing the cutting edge of TL-15 to 16.

Average TL's are another question or the level of TL kept in their fleets, but all of the major polities have access to roughly the same level of technology in the TL-14 to 16 range.

Teleporting commandos. How many of these does the Consulate have?

Several articles. Org charts. No real numbers. Lots of people have made guesses. Probably between 5 and 10% of the force. But the big line is that they are a limited, valuable resource like fighter pilots today.

Warbots. To what degree do Consulate forces rely on warbots?

Again, pretty nebulous. The story line is they are instituted in big numbers, but those numbers vary. Usually each company has several bots, at least a squad or so worth. I wouldn't guess more than about 10% of a regular force. Just my guesses.

The Sword Worlds

I think Gram is TL12, right? I own Hans' book, but I don't have it here at work. What is the SW naval doctrine? Do they use battle riders? Small jump "fighters"? Are they interestingly militarily differentiated from the other empires?

No real idea.

The Darrian Confederation
Setting aside the Special Arm, what makes Darrian navy ships special? I understand that they're TL15, which is unusual for such a small empire. But are there aspects that differentiate them from the Imperium?

The Darrians have a collection of high technology TL-16 precursor ships from the glory days. That's what's special. Stuff better than anyone else's.

Their current tech in 1116 or the present day is less advanced.

Someone wrote that they use Imperial shipyards, but I recall them having some of their own shipyards.

Not bad for Space Elves...

The Aslan Hierate

Being clan-based, I think their navies are more like a "colonial navy". Any thoughts here?

I have collected some thoughts on the Wiki. some of the larger clans would appear to have considerable naval assets and strategies. From all estimates (still estimating clan world and system holdings), some clan heads are real rivals for the average sector duke.

Of course, the Hierate lacks much detail. A future project for someone.

The Vargr

Despite their bad press, the Vargr DO have a lot of empires - some of them are larger than the Darrians and Sword Worlds put together. Yes, we can define "empire" rather loosely with the Vargr, but then.... well the Imperium itself seems rather loose in the way it gives its member worlds lots of leeway.

(And, really, even though this is Space Opera, I think the setting assumes that interstellar empires are incapable of micromanagement in the first place. They HAVE to give member worlds freedom.)

Anyway, the Vargr have their own psychology, so they probably have their own idea for military organization and strategy and ship design.

Or better yet, like everything else, the Vargr practice every possible combination or strategy possible. Super variegation.

I would think in that mess, the Vargr would have a few standard technical protocols (ISO) so they could use each other's parts. Of course, they rarely seem to even use each other's languages and I think they use Common or Galanglic as their trade language, the ones who don't have a chip on their shoulder about humans.

My ten cents for what its worth.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[mike wightman]

Once again, I need some references, because I need to be schooled!

The Zhodani Consulate

The Consulate is TL14 - that's what I've always understood. And yet, Zdhant is TL15. So are its warships TL14 or TL15? Can it be said that ANY proportion of the Consulate's military is TL15? What is that proportion?

Teleporting commandos. How many of these does the Consulate have?

Warbots. To what degree do Consulate forces rely on warbots?

CT Alien Module answers some of these questions - badly - the Zhodani Navy is capped at TL14 in the extended generation section, while the world generation system TL chart states that TL D is Zhodani maximum while the generation table says that it is capped at 14.

Teleportation is a rare talent but the Zho can test everyone for it - so effectively as many as you want - although the FFW counter mix show how many guards units there are in the order of battle for the FFW. Five guards divisions and one guard corps.

Warbots are common in some units (AM:Z) - in the AHL scenario an assault squad consist of three officers, two technicians and eight warbots.

 

[McPerth]

The Zhodani Consulate

The Consulate is TL14 - that's what I've always understood. And yet, Zdhant is TL15. So are its warships TL14 or TL15? Can it be said that ANY proportion of the Consulate's military is TL15? What is that proportion?

That's as saying in MT imperial fleet should be TL 16 because some Imperial planets are so rated.

I guess even if Zdant is TL15, there are no enough such worlds in the Consulate to maintain a TL15 fleet. While they could probably build one, they would have to return to the very few TL15 planets for repairs and (probably) some maintenance (not every year, but maybe every 5 or 10 years).

So, again my guess, a TL14 Zhodani main fleet makes sense, as its is main TL, even if it has a handful TL15 planets.

[Teleporting commandos. How many of these does the Consulate have?

According JTAS 11, page 26, about 2% of its forces in the Marches. Being the sector where they are more likely to be used, I guess the total percentage would be a Little under this threshold.

Warbots. To what degree do Consulate forces rely on warbots?

Again my guess: I don't believe they are a specific number of warbots in their military units TOE, but they are distributed as needed, as US armi did with corps level battalions (mostly artillery, but some armor and tank destroyers) in WWII.

[The Sword Worlds

I think Gram is TL12, right? I own Hans' book, but I don't have it here at work. What is the SW naval doctrine? Do they use battle riders? Small jump "fighters"? Are they interestingly militarily differentiated from the other empires?

Gram can be TL 12, but it's the only SW planet with so high TL. At TL 11 (most SW planets) maximum computers are 5, so,according HG, maximum ship size code is Q (under 100 kdtons). At this size, and with the larger PP this TL needs, it's quite difficult to build tenders (unless you use the one rider tenders AndreaV suggested time ago).

So, my guess is that SW fletes don't use BT/BR combos (except maybe Gram Fleet), and they resort to what the imperium can only see as Cruisers (as they cannot build anything larger).

See that in MT the maximum CP for computerswill lead to similar results (IIRC I tried to build a TL12 Tender and it resulted quite difficult due to this), and in MgT (1^st ED, as I have not seen 2^nd one)HG you have similar problems with computers and sizes.

[The Darrian Confederation

Setting aside the Special Arm, what makes Darrian navy ships special? I understand that they're TL15, which is unusual for such a small empire. But are there aspects that differentiate them from the Imperium?

In the Alien Suplement about them it's rold about a TL 16 relic fleet that is still operational...

[The Vargr

Despite their bad press, the Vargr DO have a lot of empires - some of them are larger than the Darrians and Sword Worlds put together. Yes, we can define "empire" rather loosely with the Vargr, but then.... well the Imperium itself seems rather loose in the way it gives its member worlds lots of leeway.

(And, really, even though this is Space Opera, I think the setting assumes that interstellar empires are incapable of micromanagement in the first place. They HAVE to give member worlds freedom.)

Anyway, the Vargr have their own psychology, so they probably have their own idea for military organization and strategy and ship design.

That, and the discussion that followed, gives my answer this about the Vargr (I give you as a post quote for easy reference and consulting), as it is months old and not easy to find, and I think the whole discussion may be of your interest in this point):

The Vargr states are TL14/15 and possess battleships, battle riders and cruisers just like the Imperium, the Zhodani, the Solomani...

Sure there are Varg HiTech HiPop (as Lair itself) planets able to build them, but vargr society is depicted as unstable, while those fleet building programs need stability.

• How many Traveller canon references have you seen to those ships in Vargr hands?
• How many Vargr empirees exist that can build them?
• How many vargr "Emperors" would entrust another vargr one of them (allowing him enough Charisma increase as to challenge him)
• How probable do you see some ofthose planets to join for long enough time to take those campaigns against the Imperium (before they begin to, at least, misstrust each other)?
• How many losses would this Alliance be willing to endure in such raids before they retreat 8and compare with the losses expected in such cases)?
• And finally, even in a Vargr planet manages to build such a fleet, how in the hell could they overcome (to give you an example) Gemid (Vland 1903), a TL 16 HiPop client state (so we can assume with a larger tan usual planetary fleet, that did not leave for Lucan's wars).

I really see the Vargr invasions as the least credible part of the Rebellion (but at the same time, a part that makes the scenario more interesting), and can only be explained as a "deus ex machina" (or script need), only aceptable if you don't try to look for any logic on it.

 

[robject]

Gram can be TL 12, but it's the only SW planet with so high TL. At TL 11 (most SW planets) maximum computers are 5, so,according HG, maximum ship size code is Q (under 100 kdtons). At this size, and with the larger PP this TL needs, it's quite difficult to build tenders (unless you use the one rider tenders AndreaV suggested time ago).

This triggered my memory of Spinward Marches Campaign, which briefly discusses the history of the 154th Battle Rider Squadron. At one point the 154th consisted of some gigantic Jump-3 tender (500k tons? a million tons? can't remember). I presume that was when the Imperium was TL13 (which it apparently was for many centuries).

What does High Guard say about computer and ship size restrictions for ships during the time when the 154th had that gargantuan tender?

 

[Whipsnade]

What does High Guard say about computer and ship size restrictions for ships during the time when the 154th had that gargantuan tender?

The best TL 13 computer is 7/7fib which allows a hull code up to Y or 1 million dTons.

The SMC' s 154th is a broken design in many, many ways, but the few details given about it's historical predecessors seem to be alright.

 

[Whipsnade]

The Consulate is TL14 - that's what I've always understood. And yet, Zdhant is TL15. So are its warships TL14 or TL15? Can it be said that ANY proportion of the Consulate's military is TL15? What is that proportion?

Doesn't FFW and SMC say something like "the bulk" of the Consulate navy being TL 14? And with substantial TL 13 assets? IIRC, the text in SMC discussing Louzy covers this.

I'd say the Zhos do have TL 15 ships but the Frontier Wars aren't important enough and the local infrastructure can't provide enough support for them to commit large numbers. TL 15 ships are going to be found in the Consulate's core and down the Core Route.

What canon says, if it says anything, could very well be different.

Teleporting commandos. How many of these does the Consulate have?

Broadsword says "small" psionic units are regularly attached as far down as the battalion level. Of course, psionic doesn't automatically equate teleportation. Broadsword also says that the squad-sized teleporting commando group used at Garda-Vilis is there in violation of normal Zho SOP.

What is the current ratio of SAS/SBS, SEAL, and Spetsnaz units to standard units in their respective armed forces. Find that and you've got a good number for Zho commandos.

Warbots. To what degree do Consulate forces rely on warbots?

The Zho marine platoon in Broadsword has no warbots attached, but marines historically have always tended towards "light infantry". CT's Zho AM might shed some light and, IIRC, there's some Zho info in TNE's Striker II.

What is the SW naval doctrine? Do they use battle riders? Small jump "fighters"? Are they interestingly militarily differentiated from the other empires?

Hans and I spent years discussing this, especially when GT:SW was being written. He insisted on a somewhat "normal" force albeit it tilted towards "cruisers" because the SW navy is really just confederalized planetary forces and single planets will find it hard to build enough battleships. I argued for a juene ecole type force that could sometimes win HG2 battles against IN BatRons. My suggestions about low-jump, high-gee, high agility, heavily armored, nuke missile armed, "rocks" along with PA-armed cruisers and swarms of deep penetration raiders wasn't well received.

Setting aside the Special Arm, what makes Darrian navy ships special?

They're TL 16. What makes them special is their reputation and little more. They're the Darrians' version of Napoleon's Old Guard; i.e. when they're committed to battle they always win, except when they don't and the battle is usually won before they show up anyways.

Thanks to MT we know what TL 16 means for warships and there is nothing revolutionary. Power plants are a little better, computers a little better, weapons, screens, electronics, what not all a little better. No new "death ray", no weapon or other system that suddenly makes an incredible advance.

I always figured that the TL 16 squadron has chiefly been used as sensors/ELINT asset. They can detect, pinpoint, target, spoof, eavesdrop, etc. on the Swordies with near impunity and pass on what they've learned to their lower tech bretheren who do the heavy lifting.

The Aslan Heirate Being clan-based, I think their navies are more like a "colonial navy". Any thoughts here?

Very much so. Remember Hans' description of the Heirate? A 5,000 man Diplomacy game? First, while many clans have huge holdings in aggregate, few will hold entire worlds alone. That means they'll be hard pressed to build oodles of BatRons. Second, there aren't any real borders so each clan finds itself defending hundreds or thousands of holdings with "penny packets". Any time they try concentrate their forces, they find themselves weakened against their far too many neighbors.

The Vargr Anyway, the Vargr have their own psychology, so they probably have their own idea for military organization and strategy and ship design.

I see those large Vargr states running more on inertia combined with a constant flow of "upstarts" thrusting themselves into power for the cachet of being the shiny new Grand Poobah of the Vargristan Empire. The edges definitely wax and wane but, because the prize of running things is so much desired, the empire stumbles along.

My other take on the Vargr has to do with the "constant, steady, repetitive" things they're so supposedly so bad at. They can build a shiny new TL 15 dreadnought, but how long can they maintain it? Are all the necessary tune-ups and oil changes "sexy" enough? Or is it more exciting to build the next shiny new TL 15 whoosit while the old rusts away?

There's also the example of the 40 Squadron, whose centuries-long reputation is due to the fact that it's leaders are all low berth jockeys. Every time the rank and file begin to tune out the boss, a "new" boss full of p*ss & vinegar from the Squadron's founding is thawed out to whip up the troops again. This new boss is the same as the old boss except for being shiny and new. During the FFW enough of that new-to-us-but-actually-old leadership got blown away so the Squadron is having trouble holding things together.

 

[flykiller]

Are all the necessary tune-ups and oil changes "sexy" enough?

perhaps it is women's work. plenty of females.

 

[lostscout5]

The Sword Worlds

I think Gram is TL12, right? I own Hans' book, but I don't have it here at work. What is the SW naval doctrine? Do they use battle riders? Small jump "fighters"? Are they interestingly militarily differentiated from the other empires?

It seems from the designs I've come across that SW ships seem to be slow {low G rating}, low jump, but heavy armor and the heaviest weapons they can fit. Out maneuver them and hit them from a distance{do they still call that kiting?}. Don't get close to them.
As McPerth said. Gram uses battle rider squadrons. Sacnoth is also TL 12, but they don't use battle riders. The rest have smaller TL 11 ships

 

[Whipsnade]

It seems from the designs I've come across that SW ships...

Designs from what publication?

As McPerth said. Gram uses battle rider squadrons. Sacnoth is also TL 12, but they don't use battle riders. The rest have smaller TL 11 ships

Again, what actual publication are you and McPerth referring to?

 

[SanDragon]

I was just hit by the thought that the Zho warbot may be the equivalent of a couple of marines assigned to the SAW.

So, the warbot may be the squad's support weapon.

Just a thought.

Having just re-read AM 8 Darrian, their TL-16 ships are from pre-Maghiz, and the module also notes the oddity of TL-17 air/rafts on them. It also said that 4 known TL-16 are merchant types upgunned with TL-14 weapons.

 

[flykiller]

So, the warbot may be the squad's support weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_CkKND-TUo

 

[robject]

I was just hit by the thought that the Zho warbot may be the equivalent of a couple of marines assigned to the SAW.

So, the warbot may be the squad's support weapon.

Interesting thought.

Having just re-read AM 8 Darrian, their TL-16 ships are from pre-Maghiz, and the module also notes the oddity of TL-17 air/rafts on them. It also said that 4 known TL-16 are merchant types upgunned with TL-14 weapons.

Those TL16 ships are definitely not characteristic of modern Darrians. They are relic ships which can't be repaired, and are carefully hoarded for strategic strikes where their supremacy is clear. Not ships for the Fifth Frontier War, typically.

 

[SanDragon]

Those TL16 ships are definitely not characteristic of modern Darrians. They are relic ships which can't be repaired, and are carefully hoarded for strategic strikes where their supremacy is clear. Not ships for the Fifth Frontier War, typically.

Yep.

Darrian has TL-15 shipyards and I think I also reda they take Imperial ships, too.

I also seem to remember their main fleet being TL-14 and -15, and planetary fleets being from TL-8 to... I think 15, but I haven't been able to find it.

 

[McPerth]

Again, what actual publication are you and McPerth referring to?

Of course I cannot talk for Lostscout, but as for me, I was using just CT:SMC, but I swaped Gram for Sacnoth in being the only TL 12 world in SW (my fault, sorry ).

From this TL I deduce they cannot use BT/BR combos, as TLs under 12 don't allow to build tenders, unless they are single rider ones, due to computers being only able to support hulls rated Q- (so, under 100 kdtons) under HG rules.

If you try to use MT rules, the limits due to maximum CPs are at least as harsh in limiting your size by TL.

 

[McPerth]

Those TL16 ships are definitely not characteristic of modern Darrians. They are relic ships which can't be repaired, and are carefully hoarded for strategic strikes where their supremacy is clear. Not ships for the Fifth Frontier War, typically.

I agree with Whipsnade in comparing them to Napoleon's Old Guard. They would be commited only for a decisive action and (hopingly) with not much risk of losses, as they are irremplaceable (thoug I believe they can be reapired, at least to a point).

It's quite clear in AM8 that the Darrians cannot build them, despite Darrian being labeled as TL16 (a true deviation from the standard rules), but I guess Darrian can repair them (let's say it counts as starport C for those TL 16 ships, not able to build more, but able to repair).

But that's only my guess, not supported by any publication I've read...

Even so, in FFW the Darrians moslty faced SW, and those TL16 ships, assuming their computers are up to the TL, are in little risk against the SW ships, with a reflexive 4-5 DM due to computer difference (and I expect them to be commanded by their best captains, so probably having some ship tactics modifier too).

 

[mike wightman]

Of course I cannot talk for Lostscout, but as for me, I was using just CT:SMC, but I swaped Gram for Sacnoth in being the only TL 12 world in SW (my fault, sorry ).

From this TL I deduce they cannot use BT/BR combos, as TLs under 12 don't allow to build tenders, unless they are single rider ones, due to computers being only able to support hulls rated Q- (so, under 100 kdtons) under HG rules.

If you try to use MT rules, the limits due to maximum CPs are at least as harsh in limiting your size by TL.

The HG table gives the minimum hull size that needs that model of computer.
A TL12 computer is the minimum required by a 100,000-199,999t (R) hull, a TL13 computer is the minimum required by a 1,000,000t (Y) hull.

My reading of this rule is that the TL12 computer can be used to control up to a 999,999t hull.

Now if they had used the word maximum in the table blurb I would agree with you - but they didn't.

 

[mike wightman]

Darrian Alien module:

Modern Technology: Modern Darrian technology is generally
about tech level 13 for local products with a liberal sprinkling
of tech level 14-15 products that are locally produced or imported
from the Imperium. Most of the merchant ships are tech
level 13, and the Navy is usually about the same with two very
important exceptions. Top ships of the line are now imported
from the lmperium (under an Imperial military aid program), and
some technicians have come with them to maintain them.

As is typical of CT material it is contradicted by a paragraph not far from that quote...

The Darrian starship construction yards are capable of constructing
tech 15 starships. Jump-6 capability is also possible,
although the ships are most often constructed with jump-3 or
less.

And as to the TL16 'fleet:

The
Darrian Navy maintains two or three squadrons of tech level 16
warships of pre-Maghiz manufacture. These ships 16 warships
were recovered from a stockpile of ships in the outer Darrian
system in 390; they have been in service since.