Canon 2: Empire Distinctives

[McPerth]

The HG table gives the minimum hull size that needs that model of computer.
A TL12 computer is the minimum required by a 100,000-199,999t (R) hull, a TL13 computer is the minimum required by a 1,000,000t (Y) hull.

My reading of this rule is that the TL12 computer can be used to control up to a 999,999t hull.

Now if they had used the word maximum in the table blurb I would agree with you - but they didn't.

I agree with you in this reading of the rules, so I talked about TLs under 12 (so most SW) being unable to build tenders.

At TL 12 you can build them, as, as you point, your computers allow for ships up to 999.999 dtons.

And as to the TL16 'fleet:

The Darrian Navy maintains two or three squadrons of tech level 16 warships of pre-Maghiz manufacture. These ships 16 warships were recovered from a stockpile of ships in the outer Darrian system in 390; they have been in service since.

And the fact they have been in service since 390 (so for about 700 years) makes me think that they can be maintained and repaired (and IMHO the best candidate shipyard to have this capacity is Darrian itself, despite being not able to build more such ships, as your other quotes explicit).

 

[lostscout5]

Designs from what publication?



Again, what actual publication are you and McPerth referring to?

Traveller Wiki
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Gram_Fleet
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Sacnoth_Fleet
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Narsil_Fleet

Also the SWC patrol ship from MGT
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...-4-Sword-Worlds-Patrol-Cruiser?cPath=161_4511

plus general junk floating around my brain. So please take with a grain of salt.

 

[Quint]

Those TL16 ships are definitely not characteristic of modern Darrians. They are relic ships which can't be repaired, and are carefully hoarded for strategic strikes where their supremacy is clear. Not ships for the Fifth Frontier War, typically.

In the Mongoose Darrian book, they note (if I recall correctly) that the TL16 ships are not only self-repairing to a certain degree they also have AI - and that the human ship commanders are often stuck with watching a ships with significantly better skills (having had centuries now to develop them) engage in the tasks that they would normally perform (tactics, etc).

I actually think this makes more sense than the strict CT AM version of events - which actually doesn't preclude the Mongoose interpretation of things either. They are a strategic rather than tactical resource when you consider their inability to be replaced in the event of a catastrophic loss.

D.

 

[Whipsnade]

I agree with Whipsnade in comparing them to Napoleon's Old Guard. They would be commited only for a decisive action and (hopingly) with not much risk of losses, as they are irremplaceable (thoug I believe they can be reapired, at least to a point).

Thanks to MT we know what advances TL 16 holds for starship systems ranging from weapons to power plants to drives and all the rest. For most systems, there simply aren't any marked improvements. A little better here and there, but nothing like the huge increase in fusion plant efficiency between TL 11 and 12 for example.

Armor doesn't change between TL 15 and 16. Jump drives, m-drives, and their fuel requirements all don't change. Weapons see various upticks in their factors, in some cases substantial, but none are revolutionary. Tractor bays finally show up, bay weapons can finally break the factor-9 barrier, spinals get a small bump and screens too, but again there's nothing spectacular.

The real TL 16 benefits are seen in electronics, sensors, computers, and communicators.

So, those vaunted TL 16 Darrian squadrons aren't making their presence in battle felt by the strength of their arms as much as they are making their presence in battle felt by their eyes, ears, and brains. They're acquiring weapon target locks faster, better, and well before their opponents and then passing those firing solutions off to their lower TL consorts. They're winning the ECM/ECCM battle and passing along the benefits which accrue from that victory to their lower TL consorts.

It's quite clear in AM8 that the Darrians cannot build them, despite Darrian being labeled as TL16 (a true deviation from the standard rules), but I guess Darrian can repair them (let's say it counts as starport C for those TL 16 ships, not able to build more, but able to repair).

Well before T5 introduced makers, I always felt that those relic ships had "mini-facs", "expert systems", and other similar technology aboard which could provide the current day Darrians with limited help for limited repairs to a limited number of systems.

Traveller Wiki

Traveller Wiki is a fine example of Garbage In, Garbage Out and little more. I know the current flood of additions and edits are being made with the best of intentions. Sadly, they're not being made with the best of skill, thinking, or understanding.

It's a shame Hans is no longer with us as he'd be busily washing away the dTons of fertilizer being dumped into the Wiki.

Also the SWC patrol ship from MGT...

MgT's many problems are well known. I wouldn't quote them for much of anything at all.

plus general junk floating around my brain. So please take with a grain of salt.

Mike's already posted the HG2 computer rating vs. tonnage numbers and the Swordies can build very big ships indeed.

 

[SanDragon]

Those Darrian TL-16 fleets are of their Special Arm branch, and show the flag and the Star Trigger.

Spoiler:

Whether or not the Darrians actually have the Star Trigger is up to each referee for his Traveller Universe and the adventure in the back of the module.

 

[Whipsnade]

Those Darrian TL-16 fleets are of their Special Arm branch, and show the flag and the Star Trigger.

Gonna need a cite for that. You know, what published work states that those relic ships are used by the Special Branch.

I'll repeat this for the THIRD TIME NOW: We know what TL 16 looks like thanks to MT ship building rules and it's no great improvement over TL 15.

We also know, thanks to TNE's RSB, that the TL 16 Barekdoldin-class patrol cruiser is more of a public relations/propaganda effort than a technologically revolutionary warship. It's actually built in the Imperium and, apart from the tractor beam, sports no system which aren't anything more than minor improvement on existing equipment.

 

[mike wightman]

IIRC the MGT Darrians book, like it or loath it, covers this. I don't own the book so I could be wrong, but it is the one section I read over a few times when I flicked through the shop copy.

 

[McPerth]

Those Darrian TL-16 fleets are of their Special Arm branch, and show the flag and the Star Trigger.

That's not what I understood from CT:AM8.

On it it talks about several TL16 squadrons held in reserve (again the Old Guard analogy), fully unrelated rom the Special arm, whose only pourpose is the deployement of the Star Trigger.

 

[McPerth]

I'll repeat this for the THIRD TIME NOW: We know what TL 16 looks like thanks to MT ship building rules and it's no great improvement over TL 15.

let's review TL16 improvements according MT:RM:

1. Possibility to armor the ship thougher (enough for another +1 to damage rolls)
2. Slightly smaller PP (about 17% output increase, half weight)
3. Better avionics (irrelevant for warships)
4. Smaller and chaper electronics, but not enough to make a difference (except the densiometers, that, being quite more powerful, may detect things undetectable at lower TLs (as Deep meson guns deeper tthan 1 km).
5. Some more powerful spinals (U rated, both MG and PA)
6. Over 9 rated bays. Those B rated MG bays may be quite nasty, allowing them to fire more than a unmodified Meson shoot (but they take quite a lot of power). As for missiles, I'm not sure if they need also TL16 missiles themselves, and, if so, not sure if they are available.
7. +1 to laser, PA, plasma and sand (unless you again need TL16 ammo, as missiles above) turret batteries (at best, relevant for fighters).
8. Better screens (A rated dampers and Mesons screens, BG up to 7 rated)
9. Better computers (rated 10)

Their effects in combat:

• Nuclear missiles are quite less powerful against them due to points 1, 8 and 9
• Better and lighter PP could allow better agility (though I guess it's not really enough, as in MT agility is quite rare)
• U spinals would inflict criticals on 300 kdton ships (and one more in smaller ones)
• As said, bays rated over 9 will not be modified in damage tables, but see that neither they recibe multiple rolls, as this is listed specificially for Spinals (page 93), not for any A+ weapon
• Better screens and computers make the ship less vulnerable, as not only is the target number higher, but the modifiers worse for the attacker.

Is that enough for those handful ships to be decisive? not sure, but will make them nasty enemies at least.

And remember they don't fight TL15 enemies, but mostly TL 11-12 ones (SW), and maybe TL 14 (Zhodani). Against those enemies, this can be a fearful threat...

 

[aramis]

In play, the TL16 ships are considerably more dangerous under stock MT HG rules than TL15 ones. The +1 point of armor matters a bit, but the improved batteries of small turrets makes a rather important difference. The better screens also make significant differences.

 

[mike wightman]

The +1 from a higher computer model is going to make a big difference. Not to mention factor A+ missile batteries mean your non-nuclear missiles no longer suffer the +6 on the damage table.

 

[McPerth]

The +1 from a higher computer model is going to make a big difference.

See that this +1 is relative to TL15 fleets, that are not the ones it confronts...

Not to mention factor A+ missile batteries mean your non-nuclear missiles no longer suffer the +6 on the damage table.

As I said previously, that depend on if you asume those batteries keep their factor with lower TL missiles (as they probably cannot build TL 16 ones any longer).

 

[mike wightman]

They have TL16 makers on board to build the missiles...

 

[McPerth]

They have TL16 makers on board to build the missiles...

According HG probably :CoW:, according MT they don't...

 

[lostscout5]

Traveller Wiki is a fine example of Garbage In, Garbage Out and little more. I know the current flood of additions and edits are being made with the best of intentions. Sadly, they're not being made with the best of skill, thinking, or understanding.

It's a shame Hans is no longer with us as he'd be busily washing away the dTons of fertilizer being dumped into the Wiki.



MgT's many problems are well known. I wouldn't quote them for much of anything at all.



Mike's already posted the HG2 computer rating vs. tonnage numbers and the Swordies can build very big ships indeed.

True of most wikis. But this stuff made sense, so I use it. I don't like most MgT ships designs. And this one has flaws. But for what it is, it's not bad. And again the design philosophy made sense for a low tech aggressive culture.

 

[Whipsnade]

Is that enough for those handful ships to be decisive? not sure, but will make them nasty enemies at least

Exactly. These are evolutionary improvements and not revolutionary advancements. Aside from the tractor/pressor bays nothing is new. It's merely improvements on and refinements to existing technologies.

And remember they don't fight TL15 enemies, but mostly TL 11-12 ones (SW), and maybe TL 14 (Zhodani). Against those nemies, this can be a fearful threat...

That's a very important point and one many people usually overlook. TL 16 ships will greatly over match the Swordies TL 11 to 12 kit, but TL 14 to 15 ships the Darrians can build or otherwise purchase from the Imperium greatly over match the Swordies too.

The question I asked myself after reading AM:8 was this: If those TL 16 squadrons are so automatically fearsome and so automatically overwhelming, how did the Darrians ever lose wars to the Sword Worlds?

The TL 16 squadrons aren't MAD devices like the Star Trigger. They aren't weapons whose use could damage the Darrians as much their enemies. They are weapons which should have been able to prevent the repeated invasions of the Entropic Cluster, however, so why have the Swordies been able to succeed? (Leaving aside Entrope switching sides.)

Obviously, it isn't a case of the TL 16 squadrons always/automatically winning. Instead, it's a case of the TL 16 squadrons winning in those limited situation in which the Darrians decide to use and/or risk them; i.e. the Old Guard model.

 

[Whipsnade]

True of most wikis.

Most Wikis have a robust and active editorial staff who see their role as in which they constantly review and remove unsuitable and unsupported materials. In other words, fact checkers and gate keepers.

Sadly, the editors most active on the Traveller Wiki are more interested in posting the materials they've written than reviewing and fact checking what has already been posted.

The Traveller Wiki should contain previously published materials only. All "fanon" should be removed or, at the very least, clearly marked as such.

But this stuff made sense, so I use it.

That's fine for your TU. It's how it works. However, when discussing your TU you need to mark it as such and not present it as a canonical fact.

I don't like most MgT ships designs.

Who does?

But for what it is, it's not bad. And again the design philosophy made sense for a low tech aggressive culture.

It's not as good as it could be, mostly because the MgT: SW authors ignored previous materials and failed to think about how an aggressive Swordie culture could carry out that aggression as technologically superior Imperium.

FWIW, the "bits and pieces" my TU's version of the SWC navy isn't that much different from the "bits and pieces" in the MgT version. MTU's force structure, however, is a result of a wargamer examining the situation.

 

[SanDragon]

Gonna need a cite for that. You know, what published work states that those relic ships are used by the Special Branch.

I'll repeat this for the THIRD TIME NOW: We know what TL 16 looks like thanks to MT ship building rules and it's no great improvement over TL 15.

We also know, thanks to TNE's RSB, that the TL 16 Barekdoldin-class patrol cruiser is more of a public relations/propaganda effort than a technologically revolutionary warship. It's actually built in the Imperium and, apart from the tractor beam, sports no system which aren't anything more than minor improvement on existing equipment.

Okay, my apologies.

I read AM: 8 and it was late at night. Light reading before bed and all.

But, those were my impressions. In afterthought, the TL-16 ships would probably be in reserve and used only to deploy the Star Trigger.

Again, my impressions.

The tech 14 and 15 ships the Darrians get from the Imperium would be deployed at the Zhodani-ward and Swordie borders, but this doesn't mean they would be able to use that technological advantage, granted.

My impressions, and therefore opinions, may be greatly biased because I'm reading my stuff and thinking about how to use it in my ATU.

 

[Whipsnade]

My impressions, and therefore opinions, may be greatly biased because I'm reading my stuff and thinking about how to use it in my ATU.

And that's exactly how they should used.

You're doing what we all do; folding, spindling, mutilating, and ignoring canon so it will better suit our needs and the needs of our TUs.

We all do it so often that we all often forget where our MTUs end and the OTU begins.

 

[pendragonman]

The question I asked myself after reading AM:8 was this: If those TL 16 squadrons are so automatically fearsome and so automatically overwhelming, how did the Darrians ever lose wars to the Sword Worlds?

The willingness to sustain massive losses and press on could also be why the Swordies win