CT Only: Carbine and AUTO fire

[jaz0nj4ckal]

I am looking over the rules in Book 1 and noticed that is says:

pg. 43
Carbine = Ruger Mini 14, or AR variation
Automatic Rifle = M14, FAL, etc

Due to the latter, I am suspecting AK, and SIG 500 variations fall in the Carbine; however, what do I use for AUTO fire stats?

What stats are you folks using/giving for AUTO fire?

Thank you

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm not following your question. If the weapon is a carbine, then you use the carbine DMs. If a weapon is an autorifle, then use the autorifle stats.

According to the description of the carbine (pg 40 TTB), it says that its a semi-automatic weapon. The AutoRifle can be fired either semi-automatically or on full automatic.

Also, remember that the carbine is a TL 5 weapon, so think of 1900 to 1939 technology. The AutoRifle is TL 6, so it's 1940 to 1969 technology.

 

[jaz0nj4ckal]

I'm not following your question. If the weapon is a carbine, then you use the carbine DMs. If a weapon is an autorifle, then use the autorifle stats.

According to the description of the carbine (pg 40 TTB), it says that its a semi-automatic weapon. The AutoRifle can be fired either semi-automatically or on full automatic.

Also, remember that the carbine is a TL 5 weapon, so think of 1900 to 1939 technology. The AutoRifle is TL 6, so it's 1940 to 1969 technology.

I guess my real question is or what I am confused about.
What stats do I use for: Carbine Single Fire and what stats for Carbine Burst fire?

That is what I get for multitasking and playing Eve Online at the sametime.

Thank you

 

[kilemall]

No burst fire for the Carbine.

The LBB1s explicitly say it's a single pull/single shot weapon. This verbiage appears to be dropped for TTB and the starter book.

Striker erases any doubt, absolutely no burst option.

 

[aramis]

I am looking over the rules in Book 1 and noticed that is says:

pg. 43
Carbine = Ruger Mini 14, or AR variation
Automatic Rifle = M14, FAL, etc

Due to the latter, I am suspecting AK, and SIG 500 variations fall in the Carbine; however, what do I use for AUTO fire stats?

What stats are you folks using/giving for AUTO fire?

Thank you

the AK-47 (7.65mm) is the CT Bk1 Autorifle.
The the M-16 are the baselines for the Assault Rifle in Bk4; the SIG SG 500 is comparable enough to use the same stats. 5.56 is close enough to the 6mm mentioned, 3330g loaded mass...
the SG 500 is listed at 3.4 kg loaded; the M16 at 3.99 loaded.

 

[mike wightman]

You can always try this.

Subtract the rifle armour/range DMs from the autorifle armour/range DMs.

Apply these new DM modifiers to the existing carbine DMs fired full auto.

You can use the same trick to make fully automatic shotguns, pistols, laser rifles and laser carbines.

 

[kilemall]

You can always try this.

Subtract the rifle armour/range DMs from the autorifle armour/range DMs.

Apply these new DM modifiers to the existing carbine DMs fired full auto.

You can use the same trick to make fully automatic shotguns, pistols, laser rifles and laser carbines.

True enough but dicey from either a sim or a game effect perspective- arguably the differing rounds would have different chances to wound that may not track on ROF alone.

 

[mike wightman]

It's how LKW recommended making up new weapons for CT.

 

[Supplement Four]

You can always try this.

Subtract the rifle armour/range DMs from the autorifle armour/range DMs.

Apply these new DM modifiers to the existing carbine DMs fired full auto.

You can use the same trick to make fully automatic shotguns, pistols, laser rifles and laser carbines.

This.



Also, remember, that the weapons shown in CT are generic weapons. It's a big universe, and I'm sure that it wouldn't be hard to find a fully auto carbine on the same world, much less in the wider subsector.

So, make up what you feel is right.

If you don't want to do what Mike suggests, then just apply the autofire rules to the carbine stats. Allow two attack throws. Boom. All done.




I used to do this in my games. It made equipment unique. My players started looking for certain manufacturers. Sometime's I'd change just one stat. Maybe this carbine is +1DM better at the Short Range category only.

Or, Maybe it is a +1DM better in handling, thus I adjust the DEX requirements.

To separate that from the generic carbine in the book, I'd name the weapon. This is a "Bow & Tunn X-TRA Fire Carbine. They're made by a high-tech company on Aramanx in the country of Lanax. That's the only place you can get them as they are not exported. Polymer stock. TL 8. Strap retracts into the housing (like a car safety belt). You can insert three standard ammo magazines into the stock, and when the weapon is done with one, it will automatically shift to the second or third magazine, allowing for 3x the ammo. It will fire semi-automatically or in 3 round bursts."

My players liked that kind of thing much better than the same old weapons all the time. I tried to specialize them and make them not only more realistic but also interesting.

 

[jaz0nj4ckal]

I don't have Book 4, so it looks like I will need to find it. So let me ask this - does book for have more weapon categories?

Ruger did make a full AUTO version of the Mini14 in the 1980 that targeted law enforcement and smaller militaries or para-military units.

(remember seeing one in Germany in the early 90s right after a bank robbery that was straight out of the movie HEAT, with carnage all over a small street in Wiesbaden).

I think this rifle was called the AC556 or something like that.

I am just finding a little odd that a 5.56x45mm would use the same stats as a 7.62x51 or larger AUTO Rifle stats.

 

[jaz0nj4ckal]

This.



Also, remember, that the weapons shown in CT are generic weapons. It's a big universe, and I'm sure that it wouldn't be hard to find a fully auto carbine on the same world, much less in the wider subsector.

So, make up what you feel is right.

If you don't want to do what Mike suggests, then just apply the autofire rules to the carbine stats. Allow two attack throws. Boom. All done.




I used to do this in my games. It made equipment unique. My players started looking for certain manufacturers. Sometime's I'd change just one stat. Maybe this carbine is +1DM better at the Short Range category only.

Or, Maybe it is a +1DM better in handling, thus I adjust the DEX requirements.

To separate that from the generic carbine in the book, I'd name the weapon. This is a "Bow & Tunn X-TRA Fire Carbine. They're made by a high-tech company on Aramanx in the country of Lanax. That's the only place you can get them as they are not exported. Polymer stock. TL 8. Strap retracts into the housing (like a car safety belt). You can insert three standard ammo magazines into the stock, and when the weapon is done with one, it will automatically shift to the second or third magazine, allowing for 3x the ammo. It will fire semi-automatically or in 3 round bursts."

My players liked that kind of thing much better than the same old weapons all the time. I tried to specialize them and make them not only more realistic but also interesting.

I like your idea of giving a +1DM to handling and didn't think of that. I was just giving different names to the weapons, and not really changing anything. Was very basic and boring. I will use your idea; however, what should the upper limit be? +1DM and -1DM should be enough right?

Thinking about making a machine pistol that is a -1DM to control thinking MAC 10 or something along those lines.

 

[aramis]

I don't have Book 4, so it looks like I will need to find it. So let me ask this - does book for have more weapon categories?

Ruger did make a full AUTO version of the Mini14 in the 1980 that targeted law enforcement and smaller militaries or para-military units.

(remember seeing one in Germany in the early 90s right after a bank robbery that was straight out of the movie HEAT, with carnage all over a small street in Wiesbaden).

I think this rifle was called the AC556 or something like that.

I am just finding a little odd that a 5.56x45mm would use the same stats as a 7.62x51 or larger AUTO Rifle stats.

A full letter-sized page (2 digest pages) more weapon table.

Note that all the same weapons are in snapshot (boardgame), as well

 

[kilemall]

I don't have Book 4, so it looks like I will need to find it. So let me ask this - does book for have more weapon categories?

Ruger did make a full AUTO version of the Mini14 in the 1980 that targeted law enforcement and smaller militaries or para-military units.

(remember seeing one in Germany in the early 90s right after a bank robbery that was straight out of the movie HEAT, with carnage all over a small street in Wiesbaden).

I think this rifle was called the AC556 or something like that.

I am just finding a little odd that a 5.56x45mm would use the same stats as a 7.62x51 or larger AUTO Rifle stats.

LBB4 introduced many iconic weapons, including the PGMP/FGMP ultimate guns, the Advanced Combat Rifle, the Gauss Gun, the RAM GL, the LAG, the Accelerator Rifle, and my fave, the Snub Pistol. Plus a whole range of artillery.

The games AHL, Snapshot and Striker has many or all of these weapons modeled, plus some extras like the X-ray lasers in Striker.

Turning any of the Striker guns auto is pretty easy, there are pluses to hit and number of hits based on how over the hit die rolled. Add a +1 to +6, number of targerts usually 2 on up, and you're done.

Well +8 and 16 targets for the ultimate light vehicle crew weapon, the VRF Gauss Gun.

 

[aramis]

LBB4 introduced many iconic weapons, including the PGMP/FGMP ultimate guns, the Advanced Combat Rifle, the Gauss Gun, the RAM GL, the LAG, the Accelerator Rifle, and my fave, the Snub Pistol. Plus a whole range of artillery.

The games AHL, Snapshot and Striker has many or all of these weapons modeled, plus some extras like the X-ray lasers in Striker.

It's worth noting that Snapshot and Bk1/Bk4 are 100% compatible.

Striker and AHL are 99% compatible with each other, but replace Bk1/Bk4 combat entirely.

 

[jaz0nj4ckal]

It's worth noting that Snapshot and Bk1/Bk4 are 100% compatible.

Striker and AHL are 99% compatible with each other, but replace Bk1/Bk4 combat entirely.

I have looked at Snapshot, but never purchased it. Does it make Traveller fell like Fallout RPG with action points? I have some people in my group that want a Fallout: 1 and 2 like planet, and I have been reluctant to provide such an adventure since I know they will compare it to the original: games and RPG PenAndPaper game.

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't have Book 4, so it looks like I will need to find it. So let me ask this - does book for have more weapon categories?

Book 4 is for a more military style campaign. It does provide more weapons, but I don't think it is a necessary book. It depends on your need and style of play. It is a good book to have, though.

I am just finding a little odd that a 5.56x45mm would use the same stats as a 7.62x51 or larger AUTO Rifle stats.

This is the Far Future. Anything is possible. You sound like you know a lot about weapons. Use that and look at the stats in the game. Adjust to your own estimation. Look at the differences between a TL 5 Carbine and a TL 6 AutoRifle. That's your starting point. Try not to make superweapons. Keep your designs within the general parameters given in the game.

I like your idea of giving a +1DM to handling and didn't think of that. I was just giving different names to the weapons, and not really changing anything. Was very basic and boring. I will use your idea; however, what should the upper limit be? +1DM and -1DM should be enough right?

I'd keep my changes slight. And, I probably wouldn't go beyond +2/-2 in extreme cases.

You're not trying to create better weapons than what is in the core book. You're trying to create weapon options.

One nice thing to do: If you improve something, like Range, then you should also make the weapon suffer vs. the generic version.

Thus, if you give a +1DM at Short Range, then also give the weapon a penalty -1DM at Medium and Long Range.

That way you are giving your players options--not weapons that are much better than the generic core.

The generic weapons in the book should be the average weapons. There can be some variation. Maybe its ammo capacity. Maybe it's handling with DEX modifier. Maybe it's with special attachments (a stock that stores two additional magazines).

 

[aramis]

I have looked at Snapshot, but never purchased it. Does it make Traveller fell like Fallout RPG with action points? I have some people in my group that want a Fallout: 1 and 2 like planet, and I have been reluctant to provide such an adventure since I know they will compare it to the original: games and RPG PenAndPaper game.

The action points can do that , if you want.

They don't have to, tho'.

It's all in how you handle it.

there are several ways to use Snapshot in a Traveller campaign:

• Just use the weapons tables
• use the maps and counters + the tables,
  but not the mechanics of Action Points
• use the full up Snapshot rules with CT characters
• Use the fast snapshot characters rules for NPC's in Traveller

 

[Supplement Four]

I'd also keep the weapons in the core books as the most often encountered types, as they are supposed to represent the average performance of weapons. Having several weapons, all named the differently, but all using the generic stats as you have been playing is a good thing to do.

Only occasionally have a weapon that is outside the norms.

Plus, it makes for a cool perk for players--like finding a +3 Vorpal weapon. They don't grow on trees.

 

[kilemall]

The Striker rules have some nuances like differing penetration at different ranges with different guns, and the ranges are not standard VS/S/M/L/LR, so the lighter weapons might hurt like an autorifle up close but they will have a shorter effective range.

One of the most terrifying weapons is the autoshotgun vs. no armor. It's not that first buckshot hit, its piling on near auto 2-3 hits.

For example, your autorifle vs. assault rifle is modeled (and the AK47 has a separate entry).

7mm Autorifle
Effective 300m (3) +3
Long 600m (2) +2
Extreme 900m (2) +1

5.5mm Assault Rifle
Effective 180m (3) +2
Long 350m (2) +1
Extreme 600m (1) +0

The number in parens is penetration, which is conflated as both penetration vs. armor and how much damage is done (on a sliding simplistic Minor/Major/Mortal wound scale).

The plus is to hit on full auto, with multiple hits possible depending on how many over the to-hit roll and + is. So at longer range the hits tend to drop off in number.

 

[Diveguy]

I don't have Book 4, so it looks like I will need to find it. So let me ask this - does book for have more weapon categories?

Ruger did make a full AUTO version of the Mini14 in the 1980 that targeted law enforcement and smaller militaries or para-military units.

(remember seeing one in Germany in the early 90s right after a bank robbery that was straight out of the movie HEAT, with carnage all over a small street in Wiesbaden).

I think this rifle was called the AC556 or something like that.

I am just finding a little odd that a 5.56x45mm would use the same stats as a 7.62x51 or larger AUTO Rifle stats.

FWIW, a bit from my own thoughts.

Way back in the dark ages of 80's gaming, I was just as huge of a weapons nerd in my games as anyone else. "No, I should get a bonus for using "X" because it's so much better than generic "Y"."

Since then, having dealt with 2.5 wars overseas, plus a law enforcement career, along with 15 years of teaching firearms professionally in conjunction with those... and, a view towards more "simplification" rather than "detail nuts" on my games, my thoughts are slightly different.

Sure, there are differences between 5.56 rifles and 7.62 rifles, and what they are employed of, and some terminal effects/range and the like... Just like, (bear with me) there are differences in performance between a Honda Civic and a Dodge Charger.

BUT - on a 2D6 range of effects, such as Traveller, they really boil down to being pretty miniscule.

So - IMHO - I'd go along with what later posters on this threat pointed out. All well and good to have "This brand carbine is known for good handling, +1 DEX, that brand is great at autofire and can use those rules." But, trying to differentiate between every slug throwing long arm is going to get old, quick. It's the same reason the game has a limited number of blade weapons, and you can extrapolate close matches within those categories.

Just some food for thought.