CBM and Chemical rounds burst size

[snrdg082102]

Morning again all,

I just updated the DS 2 possible errata topic to include the two types of burst size, ground and air, produced by the detonation of a HE round based on Book 1 Rule 24.

I'm debating on the whether to revise the possible errata entries for the CBM and Chemical rounds to reflect the HE round ground and air burst sizes.

1. CBM

The CBM round, at least with my limited knowledge, bomblets are delivered to the target area and dispersed to cover a wider area by detonating the round a certain height above the ground. The change would, I think anyway, be to alter a burst size to an air burst size.

Would a CBM round have a ground burst size?

I don't think so, but I'm to sure enough not to ask.

2. Chemical

Can a chemical round have both a ground and air burst initial cloud size?

In the suggested errata entry the initial cloud size is for a ground burst which means I don't have to make any changes.

If a chemical round also has an air burst then the burst size needs to be increased by using the multiplier of either 2, per Rule 21 A2 Air burst HE, or 4, per Rule 24 A4 CBM.

Which air burst size multiplier makes the most sense and has the least impact on the game?

 

[Carlobrand]

Playing catch-up, sorry.

Morning again all,

I just updated the DS 2 possible errata topic to include the two types of burst size, ground and air, produced by the detonation of a HE round based on Book 1 Rule 24.

I'm debating on the whether to revise the possible errata entries for the CBM and Chemical rounds to reflect the HE round ground and air burst sizes.

1. CBM

The CBM round, at least with my limited knowledge, bomblets are delivered to the target area and dispersed to cover a wider area by detonating the round a certain height above the ground. The change would, I think anyway, be to alter a burst size to an air burst size.

Would a CBM round have a ground burst size?

I don't think so, but I'm to sure enough not to ask.

I'd say no. CBM's kind of a unique situation, casing disperses submunitions while up in the air, then the subbies fall and do their bit on the ground - or atop whatever they happen to hit. The "burst-size" is more a dispersal area, so I wouldn't call it an air burst - maybe give it a unique name given its unique character, call it a dispersal size or area of effect to reduce confusion.

At any rate, I can't see a way to disperse once the casing is on the ground, and I don't see a reason for it to wait until it gets there. HE has the benefit of getting a contact hit on a ground burst, sacrificing that for the larger burst size on an air burst. A CBM isn't going to get anything out of spreading its munitions after it hits the ground, even if one contrived some techical way to do it.

2. Chemical

Can a chemical round have both a ground and air burst initial cloud size?

In the suggested errata entry the initial cloud size is for a ground burst which means I don't have to make any changes.

If a chemical round also has an air burst then the burst size needs to be increased by using the multiplier of either 2, per Rule 21 A2 Air burst HE, or 4, per Rule 24 A4 CBM.

Which air burst size multiplier makes the most sense and has the least impact on the game?

Double the area a given chemical shell cloud covers and you decrease concentration by 1/4 to 1/8 or less, depending on how - or if - the gas settles. That could have implications for its effectiveness. Quadruple it and ... well, you get the point. There's also a question as to how fast the gas settles and how far it drifts in that time. I don't know whether it's real-world possible or not, but in the game world it'd require new rules to address the new situation.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Carlobrand,

I don't think you're playing catch-up and thanks for the reply.

Playing catch-up, sorry.

I'd say no. CBM's kind of a unique situation, casing disperses submunitions while up in the air, then the subbies fall and do their bit on the ground - or atop whatever they happen to hit. The "burst-size" is more a dispersal area, so I wouldn't call it an air burst - maybe give it a unique name given its unique character, call it a dispersal size or area of effect to reduce confusion.

At any rate, I can't see a way to disperse once the casing is on the ground, and I don't see a reason for it to wait until it gets there. HE has the benefit of getting a contact hit on a ground burst, sacrificing that for the larger burst size on an air burst. A CBM isn't going to get anything out of spreading its munitions after it hits the ground, even if one contrived some technical way to do it.

CBM rounds don't have a ground burst size and I think the best idea is to leave the wording as burst size, that way I don't have to check the other two books and make the change in them too.

Double the area a given chemical shell cloud covers and you decrease concentration by 1/4 to 1/8 or less, depending on how - or if - the gas settles. That could have implications for its effectiveness. Quadruple it and ... well, you get the point. There's also a question as to how fast the gas settles and how far it drifts in that time. I don't know whether it's real-world possible or not, but in the game world it'd require new rules to address the new situation.

I hadn't thought about the dilution of the gas or the need to rewrite the rules, which is not my intent at this time, which means that I'll leave this one as is too

 

[Timerover51]

Morning again all,

I just updated the DS 2 possible errata topic to include the two types of burst size, ground and air, produced by the detonation of a HE round based on Book 1 Rule 24.

I'm debating on the whether to revise the possible errata entries for the CBM and Chemical rounds to reflect the HE round ground and air burst sizes.

1. CBM

The CBM round, at least with my limited knowledge, bomblets are delivered to the target area and dispersed to cover a wider area by detonating the round a certain height above the ground. The change would, I think anyway, be to alter a burst size to an air burst size.

Would a CBM round have a ground burst size?

I don't think so, but I'm to sure enough not to ask.

If a Cluster Bomb Munition does not go off as an airburst, it is pretty much useless when it impacts the ground, as all it does then is scatter a bunch of unarmed bomblets. The bomblets all are designed with a specific effective radius, typically 5 or 10 meters, if antipersonnel, and all a higher burst height does is scatter them over a wider area. It does not change the effective burst radius of the bomblets at all. If you are thinking of Cluster Bomb Munitions carrying small anti-tanks mines, then the munition impacting the ground and exploding might very well set off all of the mines, totally negating the intended effect of the munition.

2. Chemical

Can a chemical round have both a ground and air burst initial cloud size?

In the suggested errata entry the initial cloud size is for a ground burst which means I don't have to make any changes.

If a chemical round also has an air burst then the burst size needs to be increased by using the multiplier of either 2, per Rule 21 A2 Air burst HE, or 4, per Rule 24 A4 CBM.

Which air burst size multiplier makes the most sense and has the least impact on the game?

If you airburst a chemical round containing either mustard agent or VX, a nerve agent, you will increase the contaminated area, as both of those agents are persistent liquid agents, and do not require a lot to cause a casualty. You will also get some downwind dispersion, which might not be a good idea. As for an agent like hydrogen cyanide, the last thing you want is an airburst, as hydrogen cyanide is lighter than the components of air, and will rise rather then continue to drop. Phosgene and chlorine, the two other commonly used agents, will simply disperse over a wider area, also downwind, with reduced effectiveness, as well as giving the opposition additional time to mask prior to achieving a lethal concentration, if you can manage that. For those, and hydrogen cyanide, you want the densest concentration possible in the target area to achieve lethal effects. If the weather is very windy or raining, you do not want to carry out a chemical attack, as getting an effective concentration becomes quite difficult.

 

[Condottiere]

The bomblets might not detonate, turning them into impromptu land mines or booby traps.

Whether this is the normal failure rate or deliberate.

 

[Timerover51]

The bomblets might not detonate, turning them into impromptu land mines or booby traps.

Whether this is the normal failure rate or deliberate.

The failure rate for the bomblets fuzing is about 10 percent, making any area where they have been used quite hazardous to all who enter it, be they the enemy, friendlies, or civilians.

 

[BlackBat242]

Nice resurrection of a 8-year 3-month old thread.

 

[coliver988]

Nice resurrection of a 8-year 3-month old thread.

there are a LOT of great threads buried in this forum - the advantage of new members is that sometimes they dig around to see what happened before; not that TimeRover51 is a new guy, but he does have a lot of real-world info to help bring things into perspective and how reality works. I need to go poking around in the depths as well sometime as there are lots of useful and/or interesting bits of lore.

 

[Timerover51]

there are a LOT of great threads buried in this forum - the advantage of new members is that sometimes they dig around to see what happened before; not that TimeRover51 is a new guy, but he does have a lot of real-world info to help bring things into perspective and how reality works. I need to go poking around in the depths as well sometime as there are lots of useful and/or interesting bits of lore.

Thank you for your kind words, Coliver. It helps when you do some of this for a living. I just have to be careful what I say. See Signature for that.

 

[Diveguy]

Thank you for your kind words, Coliver. It helps when you do some of this for a living. I just have to be careful what I say. See Signature for that.

Amen to that.

And the mental reminder I give myself many times of "It's a game, things don't have to be 100% accurate."

 

[coliver988]

Amen to that.

And the mental reminder I give myself many times of "It's a game, things don't have to be 100% accurate."

Yeah, I keep trying to say we're playing Traveller, not 21st Century Realism. I'm okay with a lot of the game conceits and foibles, but it is nice to know how things work in the real world for contrast or for those gamers who do want things to closer reflect that.

 

[Timerover51]

Yeah, I keep trying to say we're playing Traveller, not 21st Century Realism. I'm okay with a lot of the game conceits and foibles, but it is nice to know how things work in the real world for contrast or for those gamers who do want things to closer reflect that.

I lean closer to realism, as I have the Real World knowledge. The companies I have worked for also have been closer to realism as they were doing historic miniature wargaming, where realism is expected. Knowing how many bomb or torpedo hits are required to sink a ship, or what the actual butterfly pattern of shell fragments is was important.

Side Note: Eleven 6-inch High Capacity dud hits nearly sank an American Fletcher-class destroyer at the Battle of Surigao Strait in October of 1944 by being through and through hits, opening her up below the waterline. That is when the U.S. Navy discovered that the fuze for the 6-inch was not humidity-proof for the tropics. Between 25% and 33% of all 6-inch High Capacity shells were duds due to this. There are literally thousands of 6-inch duds on the island of Kolombangara in the Solomon Islands, all in the vicinity of what during World War 2 was Vila Airfield.

Added Side Note: I have walked the runway of Vila Airfield. It was an interesting experience to say the least.

 

[Diveguy]

I lean closer to realism, as I have the Real World knowledge. The companies I have worked for also have been closer to realism as they were doing historic miniature wargaming, where realism is expected. Knowing how many bomb or torpedo hits are required to sink a ship, or what the actual butterfly pattern of shell fragments is was important.

Side Note: Eleven 6-inch High Capacity dud hits nearly sank an American Fletcher-class destroyer at the Battle of Surigao Strait in October of 1944 by being through and through hits, opening her up below the waterline. That is when the U.S. Navy discovered that the fuze for the 6-inch was not humidity-proof for the tropics. Between 25% and 33% of all 6-inch High Capacity shells were duds due to this. There are literally thousands of 6-inch duds on the island of Kolombangara in the Solomon Islands, all in the vicinity of what during World War 2 was Vila Airfield.

Added Side Note: I have walked the runway of Vila Airfield. It was an interesting experience to say the least.

Yeah. 65 year old UXO is not on my favorite things list. Glad that's no longer in my wheelhouse!