CT Only: Character Creation: Most Elegant Synthesis of Book 1 & Supplement 4?

[GM Joe]

One of your recommendations was ALREADY DONE, and was published in MT. We're pointing out that that work has ALREADY BEEN DONE, and so, unless he's masochistically insistent upon "not looking outside CT", his goal can be met by adopting a total of 8 pages of MT. (6 of CGen, 2 of skill list)

Yeah, I'm cussed that way.

 

[mike wightman]

One of your recommendations was ALREADY DONE, and was published in MT. We're pointing out that that work has ALREADY BEEN DONE, and so, unless he's masochistically insistent upon "not looking outside CT", his goal can be met by adopting a total of 8 pages of MT. (6 of CGen, 2 of skill list)

I know what the pair of you are pointing out, but I'm starting to get grief from two of you now for trying to help out the OP.
Do you seriously think that my first thought wasn't "that's what MT tried to do"?

Aren't you getting perilously close to breaking your own board rules here? Capitalising is shouting.

It is a CT forum, a thread labelled CT only and the OP clearly states he wants a solution for LBB1/CotI.

Should I recommend he dump CT and go with Mindjammer?

Or how about try GURPS instead?

Just because MT is similar to CT it is a different game, and as such:
a - the MT skilll list is very different to CT/CotI
and
b - resolution of those skills is very different
and finally
c - I'm assuming he doesn't have MT and doesn't want the expense of buying MT

 

[mike wightman]

Aha, I think I figured it out while we were watching our Saturday Night movie.

I remembered Mike's suggestion of adding a skill table to each, and wondered if the 'extra' skills from CotI would divide nicely into 6/6/6 (Army/Marines/Navy). So I took a look in Books 4 & 5 and came up with these extra skill lists:

Army
1. Demolitions
2. Instruction
3. Interrogation
4. Recon
5. Recruiting
6. Survival

Marines
1. Battle Dress
2. Demolitions
3. Interrogation
4. Recon
5. Survival
6. Zero-G Combat

Navy
1. Carousing
2. Communications
3. Gravitics
4. Interrogation
5. Liaison
6. Ship Tactics

I think that just leaves Marines without Instruction and Recruiting vs. what they can get in Book 4, and leaves Navy without Instruction. But neither of those is any biggie. I wouldn't have included them for Army, but they can't get Battle Dress or Zero-G Combat in Book 4, so I needed something to fill in.

Anyway, that's my first cut at it. Not exactly as simple as I wanted to make it, because it still requires 4 books. But I think it's reasonable given that 2 of those book are only used for referencing skills. And, it doesn't require modifying the existing tables of various careers across Book 1 and Book 2. Minimal changes. And it'll work well with my swiped "enlistees roll for promo" and "special duty" rolls that yield additional skills (this gives at least 3 careers a larger skill pool to draw from so they don't necessarily end up with ludicrously high levels in the skills they have).

Anyone see any improvements to be made?

I really like what you have come up with here - consider it borrowed

The only other way I can see to do it is to make individual skill entries on the LBB1 give you a choice of 2 or 3 skills (weapon skills could be even more). This is getting dangerously close to the cascade method that MT introduced.

e.g.
vacc suit offers vacc suit/battle dress/zero-g combat
mechanical/electronic offer mechanic/electronic/gravitic/commo
admin offers admin/liaison/carousing
any combat skill offers any weapon skill/demolition/zero g/battle dress

that sort of thing.

Note that you could restrict which exact skills from the skill group based on career, rank, social status... hmm, I'm starting to have another idea, skills that have similar in game resolution tests (admin/carousing/liaison/streetwise) but personalised to the character based on career, rank, sox.

E.g. a naval captain soc 9 takes a admin or liaison, while a sox 7 space hand would get carousing or streetwise

 

[GM Joe]

I know what the pair of you are pointing out, but I'm starting to get grief from two of you now for trying to help out the OP.
Do you seriously think that my first thought wasn't "that's what MT tried to do"?

Aren't you getting perilously close to breaking your own board rules here? Capitalising is shouting.

It is a CT forum, a thread labelled CT only and the OP clearly states he wants a solution for LBB1/CotI.

Should I recommend he dump CT and go with Mindjammer?

Or how about try GURPS instead?

Just because MT is similar to CT it is a different game, and as such:
a - the MT skilll list is very different to CT/CotI
and
b - resolution of those skills is very different
and finally
c - I'm assuming he doesn't have MT and doesn't want the expense of buying MT

You've captured it there, in essence. I'm not inclined to buy an RPG I don't need; if taking chargen and skills from MT, you probably should take the task system as well; and, most importantly, I like to tinker with rules.

 

[GM Joe]

I really like what you have come up with here - consider it borrowed

Well, good! I'm glad you got something out of this besides grief.

hmm, I'm starting to have another idea, skills that have similar in game resolution tests (admin/carousing/liaison/streetwise) but personalised to the character based on career, rank, sox.

E.g. a naval captain soc 9 takes a admin or liaison, while a sox 7 space hand would get carousing or streetwise

That is interesting. If you develop it further, please post. I'd love to see how it works out!

 

[aramis]

Just because MT is similar to CT it is a different game, and as such:
a - the MT skilll list is very different to CT/CotI
and
b - resolution of those skills is very different
and finally
c - I'm assuming he doesn't have MT and doesn't want the expense of buying MT

A is patently false - the skill list in MT simply includes all the skills from all of CT. The detailed descriptions are often identical. The few it adds are Neural Weapons and the consolidation weapon skills, but it still lists all the component weapons for those consolidations.

B is also untrue. Since the skill levels run in the same range, it's plenty easy to use the CT resolution for them. Especially since, except for neural weapons, they're all in CT. (Some, like the science skills, are from JTAS.)

Leaving C as the only valid item in your tirade.

You've captured it there, in essence. I'm not inclined to buy an RPG I don't need; if taking chargen and skills from MT, you probably should take the task system as well; and, most importantly, I like to tinker with rules.

Given that the differences in CGen are the addition of special duty and the use of more cascades, only the price point can be the sticky one.

Note that, literally, the only truly new skill in MT is Neural Weapons... all the others that aren't "CT skills" are grouped versions of multiple CT skills or specific subdivisions for clarity of existing CT skills.

 

[GM Joe]

Given that the differences in CGen are the addition of special duty and the use of more cascades, only the price point can be the sticky one.

Well, that and the desire to tinker.

Note that, literally, the only truly new skill in MT is Neural Weapons... all the others that aren't "CT skills" are grouped versions of multiple CT skills or specific subdivisions for clarity of existing CT skills.

It's been a long while, but I thought MT skill descriptions assumed the task system and didn't include the CT-style Referee notes on using the skill.

 

[aramis]

Well, that and the desire to tinker.



It's been a long while, but I thought MT skill descriptions assumed the task system and didn't include the CT-style Referee notes on using the skill.

They converted them to the task system. Note that the referee notes are almost all mechanics... but using the CT ref notes (which are going to be spread amongst 3 issues of JTAS, and books 1,4,5,6,7, and Sup 4) gets you the CT versions. And the ones that aren't pure mechanics, the mechanics got changed over, but the non-mechanical notes got included.

It's really not that big a deal, especially given the way CT refs tend to ignore the mechanics in the skill descriptions and make up throws on the spot.

If you use the PDF only for the 8 pages in question, and drop the special duty rolls, it's pretty much a non-issue. (I've several friends who did just that.)

 

[GM Joe]

They converted them to the task system. Note that the referee notes are almost all mechanics... but using the CT ref notes (which are going to be spread amongst 3 issues of JTAS, and books 1,4,5,6,7, and Sup 4) gets you the CT versions. And the ones that aren't pure mechanics, the mechanics got changed over, but the non-mechanical notes got included.

It's really not that big a deal, especially given the way CT refs tend to ignore the mechanics in the skill descriptions and make up throws on the spot.

If you use the PDF only for the 8 pages in question, and drop the special duty rolls, it's pretty much a non-issue. (I've several friends who did just that.)

Well, it's something to consider if I ever decide to pick up MT again. Thanks for the extra detail!

 

[aramis]

By the way: I've put someone else's MT Character Generation javascript web-app up. I've gotten permission to rehost it on my personal site, but have put it up here on COTI at:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/tools/MTCG.html You can see for yourself how close to CT it is. (It requires no additional files, either. It doesn't show you the tables, tho'.)

 

[Supplement Four]

I think you have missed the point of the OP - he is wanting to stick to basic LBB1 and S4:CotI character generation, not use advanced.

The problem is skill that were added in LBB4 and LBB5 appear on the skill tables in S4:CotI. You need LBB4 and LBB5 to know how to use the skills.

In my mind, LBB1 generation, with extra skills that are not in LBB1, is still LBB1 chargen.

I have no problem adding extra skills. And, CT does expect that extra skills may be used (referring to the notes to the Ref on creating new skills).

So, using skills from LBB4+ is not an issue.

 

[GM Joe]

Nice! Thank you for that.

For fun I went through it and came up with this:

UPP:
89A7CB

HomeWorld:
StarPort=B, Size=Small, Atmos=Standard, Hydro=Wet
Population=Low, Law=Moderate, Tech=High Stellar

Age: 38

Terms: 5

Career: Army

Rank: Lt. Colonel (Rank 4)

Skills:
Combat Rifleman-2, Medical-2, Rifleman-2, Tactics-2, Carousing-1, Forgery-1, Grav Belt-1, Large Blade-1, Streetwise-1, Submachinegun-1, Computer-0, Grav Vehicle-0

Cash:
50000 Cr

Pension:
10000 Cr/Year

Benefits:
Low Passage (x2), Advanced Combat Rifle

I shall now stroll about the starport, brandishing my ACR.

If I survive that, I'll use each of my low passages.

 

[aramis]

For CT use, you'd resolve Large Blade to Sword, Broadsword, or Cutlass.

 

[GM Joe]

Yeah, there would be a little translation required, but overall it's very good. But most importantly, it's a fun tool.

 

[rancke]

If I survive that, I'll use each of my low passages.

Sell them and spend some of your money on mid passages. You'll live longer.


Hans

 

[GM Joe]

Sell them and spend some of your money on mid passages. You'll live longer.


Hans

Where's the fun in that?

 

[Mithras]

Aha, I think I figured it out while we were watching our Saturday Night movie.

I remembered Mike's suggestion of adding a skill table to each, and wondered if the 'extra' skills from CotI would divide nicely into 6/6/6 (Army/Marines/Navy). So I took a look in Books 4 & 5 and came up with these extra skill lists....... <snip>

GM Joe, I do like your skill lists, alot. I have tackled this problem in the past, and I figured that not all of these skills are necessary, I think you might be shifting skills in the wrong direction.

Instruction and recruiting, for example, were designed to facilitate the mercenary campaign rules in the back of Book 4. Ship Tactics, was likewise used to feed into High Guard rules in Book 5. Gravitics ... I have always considered an odd skill, far too specific, like having jet engines or cybernetics, none of which Book 1 entertains. Carousing is interesting, but most players do this as a matter of roleplay, rather than the characters. Surely that could be struck off too? Survival I like, Demolitions I also like... And I think, that is about it! I think Recon is nice too, but too military specific, a little like the odd-ball Forward Observer skill in Book 1.

 

[Mithras]

I've just spent a pleasant 30mins thrashing this out to my own satisfaction!

Battle Dress - Vacc Suit
Carousing - In Book 1, this 'slot' seems to have been allocated to Streetwise
Commo - Electronics
Liaison - Either Admin (Diplomat) or Streetwise (Rogue)
Demolitions - I like this. Leave it!
Interrogation - Too specific. Swap for Streetwise.
Recon - Roll this into Survival.
Ship Tactics - Treat as Tactics. The Rogue and Pirate get this skill, Tactics will serve them well.
Survival - I like this. Leave it!
Zero G Cbt - Redundant - use Vacc Suit.
Gravitics - Redundant - Use Electronics.
Instruction - Too focssed on Mercenary careers, swap for Leader.
Recruiting - Swap for JoT, I. Think only the Bureacrat gets this skill.

Now, I have kept Survival and Demolitons, too cool skills which really, are missing from Book 1. How do I back date these skills??

Tactics is a good candidate, make this a cascade skill, falling to either Survival, Demolitions or Tactics.

The scouts need Survival, so does the Army and the Marines. Why not allow Jack of all Trades to default to either Survival or Jack of Trades?

While I'm here I'd like to get rid of Forward Observer!! Maybe allow that to fall to Vacc Suit, Fwd Observer or Survival.

Just my own take on this!! Good luck and a Happy New Year

 

[GM Joe]

Mithras,

I like your thinking! Keep it as simple as possible, adding only the most useful of skills.

I'd love to see your skill tables for Book 1 and Supplement 4, if you have time to post them some day.


GM Joe

 

[kilemall]

Aha, I think I figured it out while we were watching our Saturday Night movie.

I remembered Mike's suggestion of adding a skill table to each, and wondered if the 'extra' skills from CotI would divide nicely into 6/6/6 (Army/Marines/Navy). So I took a look in Books 4 & 5 and came up with these extra skill lists:

Army
1. Demolitions
2. Instruction
3. Interrogation
4. Recon
5. Recruiting
6. Survival

Marines
1. Battle Dress
2. Demolitions
3. Interrogation
4. Recon
5. Survival
6. Zero-G Combat

Navy
1. Carousing
2. Communications
3. Gravitics
4. Interrogation
5. Liaison
6. Ship Tactics

I think that just leaves Marines without Instruction and Recruiting vs. what they can get in Book 4, and leaves Navy without Instruction. But neither of those is any biggie. I wouldn't have included them for Army, but they can't get Battle Dress or Zero-G Combat in Book 4, so I needed something to fill in.

Anyway, that's my first cut at it. Not exactly as simple as I wanted to make it, because it still requires 4 books. But I think it's reasonable given that 2 of those book are only used for referencing skills. And, it doesn't require modifying the existing tables of various careers across Book 1 and Book 2. Minimal changes. And it'll work well with my swiped "enlistees roll for promo" and "special duty" rolls that yield additional skills (this gives at least 3 careers a larger skill pool to draw from so they don't necessarily end up with ludicrously high levels in the skills they have).

Anyone see any improvements to be made?

Riffing off this, thinking maybe these would be Advanced Service tables, (allowed only for characters with INT 8+).