Class B "Shipyard" Construction question

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Stoner (Glimmerdrift:Kraxin:1113) Has a class B starport and a population of 70 Billion. Per LBB TCS Trillion Credit Squadron it can build 70 million tons of vehicles per year. Since a class B starport can't build "Starships" can it import the Jump Drives and install them or do the "not yet starships" need to be transported to a Class A starport for "completion"? Maybe the hull and the J drive are laid down at a Class A port and jumped incomplete to the Class B port for completion? Maybe they are laid down in a class B port and "towed" to a class A port for J drive installation/completion?

This would create some interesting traffic flows, if there are cargo ships full of J drives moving between ports or half finished ships moving from point to point.

 

[BlackBat242]

IMTU it would be a matter of certification.

While a Class B yard could physically join up an otherwise fitted-out hull and a set of J-drives (and control systems) purchased from a Class A yard (as long as it is done by a properly trained team*), no insurance company would insure such a hull, nor would any Imperial certification/licensing authority certify the hull for legal status**.

The facility/entity installing the drive must be licensed (& the installation team certified) to perform the work... something that is only granted for those located at a Class A yard (as J-drive installation-qualified inspectors are assigned only to Class A yards). After all, that IS the defining characteristic separating Class A and B yards.




* Said team must possess the appropriate knowledge, whether they also possess the certifications is another :CoW:.

** Well, if one applied the proper amount of baksheesh/"consideration fee" to the proper official, a post-facto "inspection" (funded by the ship-owner, of course) could possibly result in a waiver of the builder's permit and issuance of a license & certification..... in certain jurisdictions, that is.

 

[tjoneslo]

The TCS rules enforce the Class B port not building Jump capable ships as a game balance mechanism without explaining why. This becomes an area where the categorization break down.

A class B port can repair a jump drive, which would include pulling the drive and putting it back in. So if there was a world building jump drives, which doesn't require a Class A port, you could import the jump drive to Stoner and have them "Repair" the jump drive.

One of the explanations given for this was the public ports won't build a Starship, but the private, government owned ports can (and do) build starships. But that falls outside of the strict interpretation of the TCS rules.

The only Class A ports in the Republic of Stoner are Berdane (population 4K) and Burukansse (600K), so if you're hauling hulls to these worlds to complete the Jump Drive connections, that will be an interesting trip.

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, you don't need a starport to either manufacture starships, or parts thereof.

All you need is the industrial base, requisite materials, and experienced personnel.

It's just that most manufacturing of complex machinery such as jump drives is probably achieved easier in orbit, whether due to micro gravity or access to materials.

And if in orbit, it might be more convenient to attach the shipyard to the local starport, possibly for tax reasons.

 

[kilemall]

As far as jump drives being shipped are concerned, I've shown that the combination of the shipping costs per parsec, the high Mcr1+ value of the drives, and the cutrate cost coming out of an IND rated planet means a 100-300 parsec 'range' for them to be shipped from industrial planets and sold profitably.

There would still be room for local builders and suppliers making up for temporary demand that can't be satisfied by the very long supply chain fast enough or deal with disruptions.

I would think it's the letter drives that get shipped, able to be slotted in anywhere and essentially a multi-TL engineering standard and thus a wide customer base. I'd rule that HG design ships are custom builds and thus tied to the TL of the building planet as per the TCS rules.


You could circumvent the rules by saying there is a naval shipyard for the planetary or subsector navy. The starport rating has to do with general aerospace facilities that are presumably turned to government contracts. Private or governmental yards can exist outside of the designation. Travellermap says Stoner has a naval base, so you can justify on that basis. Your universe, your call.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the concept of the battle rider? Those are major warships without jump drives that are carried by a jump carrier and are otherwise optimized for combat. This planet could be a major source of those.

Could also be a major source of small craft and refitting/repair.


Incidentally, your 70 million ton figure looks high to me. So I ran the numbers through the formula and the UWP for Stoner.

We'll assume peacetime.

70 billion x 1.2/1000. The 1.2 is the TCS peacetime government modifier for Stoner's government classification.

84 million tons. Well heck. It's even more for wartime, 105 million tons.

Yowzers, it's industrial and militant and law level intrusive/bribery as all get out. No wonder it's an amber zone.


Wiki says the whole thing should be considered a Red Zone, heavy use of psionics, xenophobia and assassination.

Wonder which of those other planets are effectively Stoner's Australia.


So, a picture emerges, of a very crazy pants society set to defend itself against the Imperium, and with the population and industrial might to back it up. Course one genocidal pass by the IN against Stoner would end the place, so we can surmise the Imperium doesn't want to for whatever PR/not worth it reasons.

The B starport makes sense too, no civilian orgs get high tech starships, just the Duchy navy.

If they opened themselves up to Imperial trade, they could make a pile of money. But even so, given all the independent domains they probably already dominate the region economically.

A lot of those independent planets and polities probably get demands to be non-Imperial in order to get trade rights, and several unwelcome purity teams making sure it stays that way.

Technically they should probably be bigger with that industrial base, but paranoia justified or not likely reigns. Don't know if the Imperium is coming so they don't go very far afield.

 

[Enoki]

Stoner is in the Grand Dutchy of Stoner. Canon has it that this pocket empire is xenophobic and totalitarian. Psionics were never banned like in the 3rd Imperium. It is dubbed "The Hermit Kingdom" in canon as well. Remind you of anywhere?

Being isolationist and run by a dictatorship of sorts, it's likely they simply don't have the means to import the technology or don't want to. Not being able to build starships would mean there's no real way for anyone there to escape.

Or, the technology to build such ships might be very tightly controlled by the government who can build starships if and when they want but won't allow their construction without permission and very tight supervision.

Thus the starport would technically be a B while it is A capable only when the government deems building a jump capable ship is necessary. Players obviously couldn't go there and get a jump capable ship built if they wanted one.

 

[mike wightman]

I think of it this way - the starport A-X is a civilian designation and facility. As is mentioned in canon any world government with sufficient resources/TL etc can build a navy - hence paramilitary or military construction is allowed regardless of civilian starport type.

 

[Enoki]

I think of it this way - the starport A-X is a civilian designation and facility. As is mentioned in canon any world government with sufficient resources/TL etc can build a navy - hence paramilitary or military construction is allowed regardless of civilian starport type.

And that would parallel what I stated. The Grand Dutchy being a isolationist dictatorship would likely keep the population on a very short leash and not allow building of starships without government permission and even then those built would be very tightly controlled as to where they go and what they do.

 

[GypsyComet]

Stoner is in the Grand Dutchy of Stoner. Canon has it that this pocket empire is xenophobic and totalitarian. Psionics were never banned like in the 3rd Imperium. It is dubbed "The Hermit Kingdom" in canon as well. Remind you of anywhere?

Indeed, and similar motives can be attached. The biggest being regime preservation.

 

[Timerover51]

I go with Class "A" star ports can build ships from scratch, but also go with a Class "A" star port having a minimum population exponent of 6, population in the millions, but that is pushing it. A Class "B" star port can build starships by importing Jump Drives. Again, I go with a Class "B" star port having a minimum population in the millions. Tens of millions is more reasonable for both Class "A" and Class "B" star ports.

In the case you cite, I would simply make it a Class "A" star port to begin with, given its population of 70 billion.

 

[Condottiere]

Trillion tends to separate the local military industrial complex in order to make it playable.

Within the Imperium, it seems that class is determined by said Imperium; outside of it, you could value add all the facilities you want on your spaceport, including manufacturing starships.

The difference probably is, that annual inspections certify starport shipyards as being within Imperium standard quality.

 

[Enoki]

Yet another way of looking at this is that outside the Imperium, starport classifications are not as accurate because they aren't kept as up-to-date as ones within the Imperium's borders. A starport in another polity, particularly one that isn't really accessible like the Grand Dutchy, would be as much guess and possibly even bias as an accurate assessment.
The further a system is from the Imperium, the more likely the data is not up-to-date simply because of the time lag between it being gathered and it being entered into the Imperium's Scout databases.

 

[whartung]

The further a system is from the Imperium, the more likely the data is not up-to-date simply because of the time lag between it being gathered and it being entered into the Imperium's Scout databases.

Possible, but this is such an edge case.

Can a starport change over time? Naturally. But, if anything, it's going to upgrade.

A downgrade of a starport would be an exceptional circumstance. The capital and traffic necessary to support an A over a B is substantial, and that doesn't vanish over night (barring some cataclysmic event).

So, while, "yes", this all makes sense, we're not talking about a AAA map with an out of date list of gas stations.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Class B Grand Duchy of Stoner

And that would parallel what I stated. The Grand Dutchy being a isolationist dictatorship would likely keep the population on a very short leash and not allow building of starships without government permission and even then those built would be very tightly controlled as to where they go and what they do.

What other sources are available for Glimmerdrift? I'm mainly looking at Gateway to Destiny and TravellerMap. 1105 Traveller map shows more Grand Duchy worlds than Gateway to Destiny.

While the Duchy has no real love for the Imperium, there is no traditional enmity. Nevertheless, the Duchy is suspicious of Imperial expansion and works through legal and economic means to curtail it. Imperial corporations
are not permitted to own facilities or even maintain offices within the Duchy.

Most worlds of the Grand Duchy are ruled by either hereditary Princes (there are several Princes, but the Grand Duke outranks them) or Appointed Governors, most of whom are Dictators with wide powers, but who answer to the Grand Duke. - Martin J. Dougherty with Hunter Gordon 2004

Is this considered canon?

At the end of the day I am working up a campaign in Glimmerdrift, but have a unhealthy need to "understand" the economic and political environment/ sandbox that I am releasing adventurers into. I was going to retcon the JG material but I like what Dougherty and Gordon put together.

 

[aramis]

IMTU it would be a matter of certification.

While a Class B yard could physically join up an otherwise fitted-out hull and a set of J-drives (and control systems) purchased from a Class A yard (as long as it is done by a properly trained team*), no insurance company would insure such a hull, nor would any Imperial certification/licensing authority certify the hull for legal status**.

The facility/entity installing the drive must be licensed (& the installation team certified) to perform the work... something that is only granted for those located at a Class A yard (as J-drive installation-qualified inspectors are assigned only to Class A yards). After all, that IS the defining characteristic separating Class A and B yards.




* Said team must possess the appropriate knowledge, whether they also possess the certifications is another :CoW:.

** Well, if one applied the proper amount of baksheesh/"consideration fee" to the proper official, a post-facto "inspection" (funded by the ship-owner, of course) could possibly result in a waiver of the builder's permit and issuance of a license & certification..... in certain jurisdictions, that is.

It's very clear in cannon that there are no insurance policies.

And, considering that the USN commissioned warships assembled in a repair dock in Seward AK during WW II...
That the USN commissioned ships assembled from shipped components in Pearl Harbour into the Korean War era...

I think your objections do not reflect the realities of naval construction which formed the basis of Traveller/

 

[Condottiere]

You can get creative with materials, substituting concrete and wood.

Also, recycling older and/or salvaged machinery and equipment.

 

[Silverhawk]

And, considering that the USN commissioned warships assembled in a repair dock in Seward AK during WW II...
That the USN commissioned ships assembled from shipped components in Pearl Harbour into the Korean War era...

I think your objections do not reflect the realities of naval construction which formed the basis of Traveller/

The current Royal Navy Carriers HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales were constructed in modular units at different yards then transported to the main yard for assembly. So it would appear that modular construction is a viable option in ship building.