Class B starport facilities

[rancke]

I just noticed that MgT Core redefined the kind of vessels that can be built in systems with Class B starports from spacecraft to vessels below 5000T.

It's a change that I approve of¹, but I think that the term 'Shipyard (spacecraft)' on p. 178 should be changed to 'Shipyard (small vessels)'. The distinction between starship and spacecraft is that one can jump and the other can't. The distinction between vessels below 5000T and vessels above 5000T is the size. Two different differences.

¹ Because it resolves problems I've had with explaining why systems without space colonies built spaceboats.​

Hans

 

[whulorigan]

I just noticed that MgT Core redefined the kind of vessels that can be built in systems with Class B starports from spacecraft to vessels below 5000T.

It's a change that I approve of¹, but I think that the term 'Shipyard (spacecraft)' on p. 178 should be changed to 'Shipyard (small vessels)'. The distinction between starship and spacecraft is that one can jump and the other can't. The distinction between vessels below 5000T and vessels above 5000T is the size. Two different differences.

¹ Because it resolves problems I've had with explaining why systems without space colonies built spaceboats.​

That might cause some confusion with the term "Small Craft", which are defined as ships of 100dton or less (and can now be built at a Class-C port, BTW). I am not sure if I have a good alternative suggestion, however.

But I agree with your comment. Class B ports were always somewhat of an anomaly as written.

 

[rancke]

"Shipyard (Medium craft)"?


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

From the core rules:

• Small Craft: Shuttles and other craft under 100 tons.
• Spacecraft: Trade ships and other vessels between 100 and
5,000 tons.
• Capital Ships: Battleships and other ships over 5,000 tons.

 

[rancke]

From the core rules:

• Small Craft: Shuttles and other craft under 100 tons.
• Spacecraft: Trade ships and other vessels between 100 and
5,000 tons.
• Capital Ships: Battleships and other ships over 5,000 tons.

Thus breaking with previously published material for no good reason. Indeed, the distinction between spacecraft (no jumping) and starships (jumping) is useful and losing it is IMO a Bad Thing. (A very minor Bad Thing, granted, but still an altogether unnescessary Bad Thing).


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Thus breaking with previously published material for no good reason. Indeed, the distinction between spacecraft (no jumping) and starships (jumping) is useful and losing it is IMO a Bad Thing. (A very minor Bad Thing, granted, but still an altogether unnescessary Bad Thing).


Hans

IMO we should just regard that as errata. They are still either Starships or Spaceships/craft. (I prefer "craft" to be reserved for SmallCraft.)

 

[McPerth]

IMO we should just regard that as errata.

I disagree in this point. MgT changes (again) the paradigm, and now the starport class means diferently, so that in Class A any ship may be built (subject to workforce et al, but that's another eternal discussion :CoW, class B ones may build any shi/craft up to 5000 dton (spaceships and small crafts) and class C may now build small crafts.

This is a departure from usual classifications from other versions, but that's also true in other ways in MgT (flat berthing costs, flat freight/passengers prices, etc...), and we must not guide ourselves with other Traveller versions when playing MgT.

 

[aramis]

Thus breaking with previously published material for no good reason. Indeed, the distinction between spacecraft (no jumping) and starships (jumping) is useful and losing it is IMO a Bad Thing. (A very minor Bad Thing, granted, but still an altogether unnescessary Bad Thing).


Hans

And one that had fans griping during the public playtest.

 

[Vladika]

I disagree in this point. MgT changes (again) the paradigm, and now the starport class means diferently, so that in Class A any ship may be built (subject to workforce et al, but that's another eternal discussion :CoW, class B ones may build any shi/craft up to 5000 dton (spaceships and small crafts) and class C may now build small crafts.

This is a departure from usual classifications from other versions, but that's also true in other ways in MgT (flat berthing costs, flat freight/passengers prices, etc...), and we must not guide ourselves with other Traveller versions when playing MgT.

I'm not really concerned about the changes in what a Starport can do toward shipbuilding. Actually I believe it to be a positive change.

My problem is in renaming the ships. I maintain that:

1) A Starship is anything with a Jump Drive.
2) A Spaceship is any 100dt, or greater, vessel without a Jump Drive.*
3) A Smallcraft is any 100dt, or less, vessel without a Jump Drive.**

* I like allowing the 100dt to be either or, Ship or Smallcraft.
** Until Marc allows less that 100dt hulls to have and use a Jump Drive.

 

[rancke]

Technically, non-jump capable vessels are boats regardless of size. Starship vs. spaceboat.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Technically, non-jump capable vessels are boats regardless of size. Starship vs. spaceboat.
Hans

You may just be correct. But, maybe not...

I went back through CT Book 2 and:

Space ships are constructed and sold at shipyards throughout the galaxy. Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including a starship with jump drives; any class B starport can build a small craft and ships which do not have jump drives. - CT Book2 p12​

From this I inferred there were Starships, small craft, and "ships" which do not have jump drives. (Hence "Space ship".)

I'm mostly familiar with CT and have not really searched for definitions in other versions.

I am curious where another reference may come from?

 

[rancke]

You may just be correct. But, maybe not...

I went back through CT Book 2 and:

Yeah, even canon sources get it wrong sometimes.

I am curious where another reference may come from?

It's one of those things I've known for over 30 years. It's quite possible that my memory is playing me false. I'd still take a bet that it is from some canon source, but I wouldn't bet anything I couldn't lose with equaminity.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

My money says non-starship=boat comes from High Guard.

 

[Vladika]

My money says non-starship=boat comes from High Guard.

Pilot: Each starship and non-starship requires a pilot, who must have at least pilot-1 skill. Small craft require a pilot who must have at least ship's boat-1. CT Bk2 p16

Listed crew for all small craft except the fighter is two: pilot and rider. The craft may be operated by one pilot if desired. The pilot must have ship's boat skill (or may use pilot skill minus one). CT Bk2 p17

Fleet tactics is a skill used by individuals in command of groups of two or more space or star ships. -HG2 p10

Ship Tactics: The individual has been trained in the operation of a starship or space ship in battle. -HG2 p13

I'm starting to fixate on this.

The strong implication is both Star and Space Ships (Pilot skill ONLY) for large craft and Smallcraft (Ship's Boat OR Pilot -1)

I'm sure it's me but... I have a real problem calling a code "Y" hull (1,000,000dt) without a Jump Drive a "boat".:nonono:

 

[rancke]

I'm sure it's me but... I have a real problem calling a code "Y" hull (1,000,000dt) without a Jump Drive a "boat".:nonono:

Not at all. It's a perfectly normal reaction. That's why I said "technically" and that's why so many people get it wrong.

BTW, you have heard about system defense boats, right?


Hans

 

[Jame]

I just noticed that MgT Core redefined the kind of vessels that can be built in systems with Class B starports from spacecraft to vessels below 5000T.

It's a change that I approve of¹, but I think that the term 'Shipyard (spacecraft)' on p. 178 should be changed to 'Shipyard (small vessels)'. The distinction between starship and spacecraft is that one can jump and the other can't. The distinction between vessels below 5000T and vessels above 5000T is the size. Two different differences.

¹ Because it resolves problems I've had with explaining why systems without space colonies built spaceboats.
​

Hans

I also approve of it, enough that I would use it as written.

 

[McPerth]

I just noticed that MgT Core redefined the kind of vessels that can be built in systems with Class B starports from spacecraft to vessels below 5000T.

It's a change that I approve of¹, but I think that the term 'Shipyard (spacecraft)' on p. 178 should be changed to 'Shipyard (small vessels)'. The distinction between starship and spacecraft is that one can jump and the other can't. The distinction between vessels below 5000T and vessels above 5000T is the size. Two different differences.

¹ Because it resolves problems I've had with explaining why systems without space colonies built spaceboats.​

Hans

I'm afraid you're thinking with CT mind and language.

If you look at the Pilot skill in MgT (CB page 57) you'll see that in MgT the wording changes:

• Small Craft : shuttles and other craft under 100 dton
• Spacecraft: trade ships and other vessels between 100 and 5000 dton
• Capital Ships: Battleships and othre ships over 5000 dton

This wording (let's call it MgT language) is kept in the starport definition, where A starports may build any ships, B starports only spacecrafts and small crafts and C starports only small crafts. Nothing to do with being able to jump or not.

 

[Vladika]

Not at all. It's a perfectly normal reaction. That's why I said "technically" and that's why so many people get it wrong.

BTW, you have heard about system defense boats, right?


Hans

True. A modern equivalent in usage might be submarines. TRADITIONALLY they have been referred to as "boats" irregardless of size. (Many are larger than modern Cruisers.)

Boats are often defined as any vessel capable of being transported on the deck of another vessel.

If for no other reason, it just doesn't sit well for 100dt (and larger), non jump vessels, to be unilaterally called "boats".

 

[rancke]

I'm afraid you're thinking with CT mind and language.

If you look at the Pilot skill in MgT (CB page 57) you'll see that in MgT the wording changes:

This wording (let's call it MgT language) is kept in the starport definition, where A starports may build any ships, B starports only spacecrafts and small crafts and C starports only small crafts. Nothing to do with being able to jump or not.

No, I'm thinking that this change in nomenclature breaks with previously published material for no good reason, losing the useful distinction between spacecraft (no jumping) and starships (jumping) for no corresponding gain.

I'm all in favor of changes that fixes problems. I'm dead set against changes that don't fix anything, let alone make things worse. (Even if, as I've already admitted, the loss, in this particular case, is pretty insignificant).


Hans

 

[McPerth]

No, I'm thinking that this change in nomenclature breaks with previously published material for no good reason, losing the useful distinction between spacecraft (no jumping) and starships (jumping) for no corresponding gain.

I'm all in favor of changes that fixes problems. I'm dead set against changes that don't fix anything, let alone make things worse. (Even if, as I've already admitted, the loss, in this particular case, is pretty insignificant).


Hans

And so?

As said, you must, to a point, forget previously published material, as it is a new game (albeit close related to CT) with new concepts and new language. The same way, now being able to drive a grav car is in flyer skill (and this is not only a nomenclature change, as it is related to piloting airplanes, no longer to car driving), Ship's boat is only another piloting specialty (so anyone that can pilot it can pilot larger crafts, albeit at level 0 unless they develop also the skill), etc...

Many assumptions and language change from CT, even some that you were yourself asking for many times (as the diferent cost per parsec on passages/freight), others you may like less, but, once again, forget about previously published materials, it's a new one and has its own languag and rules.

I remember when first reading about cascade skills in TNE and T4, where this meant a different thing thatn in MT (the equivalent to MT cascade was then called cluster skills), and it also confused me, until I stopped thinking in MT terms...

I agree it's hard to change one's so assumed concepts and words, and all too often the seemingly easier (as just a Word chane) are the harder ones...

One of my main criticisms on MT (aside from errata) was that they seemed to asume you already knew CT, as it has many unclear points that could be solved just looking at it. MgT avoids it by having less connections at this point to CT, while following it quite closely in others, and in nomenclature they decided to use their own.

In any case, as you say, a very minor problem, and they can be proud if it's the worst problem you find on it (but I asume this won't be the case, as it has its flaws, as anything made by men).