Non OTU: COACC

[Timerover51]

In case you are not up on the abbreviations, COACC stands for Close Orbit and Airspace Control Command.

My copy arrived today, and it does satisfy my curiosity. Fortunately, it was not too expensive.

Just a few quick notes.

1. The "Ypres" primitive fighter is pretty close to being a De Havilland DH-9A, so I assume that a cost comparison to a Real World DH-9A is justified. The book lists it as costing 41,600 Credits. In 1920, the government of Australia was offered by the UK, DH-9A aircraft for a delivered to Australia price of 3,300 British Pounds. I will leave it to others to figure out the Pound-Credit exchange rate. Australia was also told that the Vickers Vimy twin-engine bomber would cost about 10,000 British Pounds delivered to Australia.

2. The "Tuscon" TL 6 fighter on page 13 is pretty much a ringer for the US P-51 of World War 2. The price for the "Tuscon" is listed as 135,700 Credits. In 1945, a P-51 had a unit cost of $50,985 US.

3. The "Cheyenne" TL6 jet fighter on page 15 is a ringer for the US F-86 Sabre, and has a cost of 439,000 credits. The flyaway cost for an F-86E, the primary model used in the Korean War, was $219,457.00. broken down as follows: airframe=$145,326, engine(installed)=$39,990, electronics=$6,358, ordnance=$4,138, and armament=$23,645.

For those interested in flyaway costs of US fighters and bombers since the end of World War 2, go to the following website:

http://www.afhso.af.mil/booksandpublications/titleindex.asp

and download the two volumes of the Encyclopedia of U.S. Air Force Aircraft and Missile Systems. It gives the development history of the fighter and bomber, some idea of its combat usage, and some of the problems that the aircraft had.

If you are interested in the costs of civilian aircraft, I would recommend the U S CIVIL AIRCRAFT SERIES by Joseph Juptner, as the 8 volumes cover all of the US civil aircraft that were certified by the US government for operation in the US. You get detailed specifications for all but a few of the 800 aircraft covered, along with costs of the various models, and capabilities. It is a very useful reference work. A fair number of the aircraft in the 1930s ended up being used by the military, the DC-3 being one of the most prominent ones.

Then for coverage of civilian aircraft up to about 1962, some of which also were used by the military, notably the Boeing Stratocruiser, derived from the B-29, and the Boeing 707, used as the KC-135, you have The World's Airliners, by Peter Brooks. This does include your early jet airliners, and an added benefit to the book is the author also gives the operating cost per mile for the aircraft, albeit in 1962 British pounds and pence. At that time, the British Pound - US Dollar exchange rate was fixed at $2.80 per British Pound. It also includes the initial civilian helicopters, most of which were also used by the military. An extremely useful book, and for those who are using the COACC book, it could be an immense timesaver it delivering already designed and costed aircraft for ready use.

Edit Note: I probably should have labeled this thread as a NON-OTU to avoid rule issues.

 

[HG_B]

Thanks for the references. I don't use Trav design system for vehicles of our current TL or lower. I just use real world examples and extrapolate so these are welcome additional data sources.

 

[Timerover51]

Thanks for the references. I don't use Trav design system for vehicles of our current TL or lower. I just use real world examples and extrapolate so these are welcome additional data sources.

If you do that for aircraft in from the 1920s and 1930s in the Juptner books, you can come up with some reasonably capable military aircraft based on the civilian designs. The Lockheed Model 14 Super Electra was converted pretty easily to the Lockheed Hudson patrol bomber, used very extensively in World War 2 for anti-submarine patrol and reconnaissance. The Waco Model JHD was specifically built as what the British would call an "army cooperation" aircraft or a low-cost general purpose counter-insurgency aircraft, mounting 2 machine guns, and able to carry light bombs. The Curtiss-Wright A-19-R design was marketed as an advanced trainer, with a performance not that much below that of the Army Air Corp P-26 fighter of the early 1930s. There are a lot of aircraft that could be used as the basis for military aircraft in the Juptner books.

 

[Ben W Bell]

If you want exchanges in the 1920s the British pound was worth approximately $5 US for most of the decade.

 

[HG_B]

If you want exchanges in the 1920s the British pound was worth approximately $5 US for most of the decade.

Yes, I just need to work out the value of the USD then. It is close to 20X of what it is now.

 

[Muad'dib Pendragon]

Yes, I just need to work out the value of the USD then. It is close to 20X of what it is now.

Take a look here: http://www.measuringworth.com/index.php

 

[McPerth]

Take a look here: http://www.measuringworth.com/index.php

Interesting page...

 

[Timerover51]

I was thinking more of the exchange rate between historic currency like the US Dollar and the British Pound to Imperial Credits. Up to about 1931, the British Pound was valued at $4.875 US, so about $5 US to 1 British Pound. During the 1930s and World War 2, the British Pound was valued at about $4 US. In late 1949, the Bretton Woods Agreement pegged the Pound at $2.80 US, and in late 1967, the rate changed to $2.40 US to 1 British Pound. In 1971, the US formally dropped valuing gold at $35 to the ounce, and let the Dollar float against gold, basically ending the period of fixed exchange rates.

As most of my information is valued in US Dollars and British Pounds, when I quote a price, I will give the year that the price was valid for, so as to simplify valuation in Imperial Credits.

In Research Station Gamma, a Droyne coin of solid gold is said to be weigh 2 ounces, presumably Troy weight, and be worth 400 Imperial Credits, with gold at 200 Credits per ounce. The Library Data in the MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia gives the same bullion value for a gold Droyne coin. In 1980, the average value for gold was $612.56 per ounce, but 1980 was an exceptional year, and the value of gold dropped drastically after that, being valued in a range from roughly $300 to $400 per ounce. In 2006, the average value was again up to $603 per ounce and has been steadily climbing since. If you assume an inflation rate of 5% in the 32 years since 1980 for the Imperium, that 200 Cr per ounce would now be 953 Cr per ounce. On that basis, 1 Imperial Credit, on a Tech Level 15 World be worth about $2 US, if I am correctly figuring a base Imperial Credit level for valuation of Tech Level 15.

 

[Timerover51]

I have data giving the manning requirements for World War 2 US air groups and early World War 2 British squadrons. Once I get a better hang of the table system on here, I will post them. The US data also gives the manning for night fighter squadrons, which had a lot heavier electronics maintenance burden. Working from these, you should be able to develop some ideas as to the number of personnel required for more advanced aircraft.

 

[Timerover51]

I found this in a postwar study for the Air Force and Army on developing airfields in the Arctic. As COACC allows for both military and civilian float planes and sea planes, I figured that it would be useful information, and also have some potential for adventure ideas. A party hired to do a survey of possible landing sites for upscale fishing expeditions suddenly turns sour when your float plane rips its pontoon or hull on a snag and leaves the party with minimal survival gear.

Water Airdromes. The term water airdrome is not generally used, yet water has been and still is used extensively as a landing area for aircraft. Rivers, bays, or sheltered areas throughout the world have been used for this purpose.

To be used for a landing area, the site must be sheltered from heavy wave action and also be free of extreme tidal activity. It is estimated that a mean tidal rise and fall over six feet is undesirable. If the water is deep enough,the actual rise and fall of the water may not be particularly significant; difficulties are more likely to arise from currents caused by the tides, than by the tides themselves.

The depth of the water may vary from three to fifteen or more feet, depending upon the size and weight of the plane expected to use the area. Although opinions vary on the most suitable depth of water for landing, it is generally conceded that it should be from a minimum of two feet more than the draft of a flying boat, to twice the draft of any flying boat using the landing area. Mr. Wood makes the following general recommendation:

To compensate for wave action, two to three feet should be allowed over the draft of a plane; an additional depth of two feet allowed to care for increased draft of a plane on initial application of power, over and above which an additional two feet of water should be allowed as a safety factor to prevent dragging the bottom.

The size of the landing area, too, will vary with the size of the plane. Improvements have increased the maneuverability of planes, making possible a much smaller turning radius. In general, however, the width of the take-off channel for flying boats should be approximately four times the wing span of the largest plane to use the channel.

The length, also, will be determined by the size of the planes. Since there is greater resistance on a water take-off than there is on land, the take-off area must be proportionately longer. A distance of from one to ten miles must be available, depending upon the size of the plane, the absence or presence of obstructions beyond the take-off area, and the availability of jato bottles or rockets to assist in take-off.

In addition to the above specifications, the area must be free of shoals and reefs or underwater obstructions of every sort. A sandy beach with a gradual slope is preferred for the beaching of aircraft, but such a beach is not required where docking facilities and cranes are available. Sufficient facilities to eliminate the necessity of beaching,however, are likely to be found only in highly developed areas.

From a brief glance at any map showing the physical geography of Canada, and its island empire, a person will readily find innumerable places which can probably be used as landing areas for float planes or flying boats. Since much of the area is imperfectly surveyed or has never been surveyed at all, many more places may be available than anyone would suspect from a study of maps of the area.

After closer reconnaissance, however, it may be found that many of the potential localities can not be used. The water may be too shallow, there may be sand bars or other obstacles in the proposed take-off areas, there may be obstructions which prevent let-downs or approach, or there may be ice in the water which would injure pontoons or hulls. A very careful aerial survey, and probably also a ground survey, of any landing site would therefore be necessary before making a water landing.

If a number of planes are sent into an area to explore the possibilities of developing landing sites, a light plane can land and make a brief on-the-spot reconnaissance before the remaining planes land. Such a procedure would be particularly valuable where several potential sites are close together. If the first plane should be seriously damaged in landing, it would still be possible for the crew to study nearby sites, and select an alternate location.

 

[Timerover51]

I thought that it would be interesting to post some actual combat narrative from the Vietnam War here. The volume is Aes and Aerial Victories, 1965-1973, published by the USAF Historical Center.

On 13 May 1967, two Phantoms and five Thunderchiefs downed seven MIG-17’s in aerial combat. The events of this day were reminiscent of Operation Bolo. Two flights of F-105’s flew air strikes against the Yen Vien railroad yard, and a flight of F4C’s from the 8th TFW provided MIGCAP for them. Another flight of F-105’s from the 388th TFW struck the Vinh Yen army barracks. After bombing the first target, the F-105’s detected three MIG-17’s at an altitude of 1,000 feet and 10 miles away in a climbing right turn. The Thunderchiefs turned left to a position of 6 o’clock on the North Vietnamese, who commenced a head-on pass. Lt. Col. Philip C. Gast, flight leader, concentrated his attack on the lead MIG while Capt. Charles W. Couch in aircraft 3 focused his attack on the third MIG. When the MIG’s closed the gap to between 5,000 and 6,000 feet, Gast fired a Sidewinder, which lost thrust and passed about 200 feet from the enemy aircraft. Couch received a tone from his Sidewinder, but since his aircraft was pointed in the general direction of the sun, he felt that most of the growl came from that celestial body and did not use his heat-seeking missile.

“As they approached head-on,” Gast later stated, “I began firing my Vulcan gun at 3,000 feet and fired down to minimum range.” The MIG-17 did not return fire. “I think we really caught them off guard.”

Gast’s wingman, Maj. Alonzo L. Ferguson, supported his flight leader’s claim. “As I looked to the rear [after the MIG’s passed below] I noted a gray cloud of smoke, tinged with pink, receding in ‘the distance."

Couch’s attack was also successful. He stated:

"I lined up on their number three man and fired a long burst from my 20-mm cannon. The MIG and I were closing head-on at this time, and at very close range he broke hard left and disappeared from my view. Another flight in trail with us observed a MIG pilot eject and another MIG in a spin. Major Ferguson saw pinkish smoke trailing from one MIG, presumably the one fired on by Col. Gast. The MIG-17 I was firing at took violent evasive action to avoid a head-on collision with me, and very likely could have entered a spin."

 

[Timerover51]

And here is some World War One air combat. The material comes from FLYING FOR FRANCE: With the American Escadrille at Verdun BY JAMES R. McCONNELL, Sergeant-Pilot in the French Flying Corps, downloaded from Project Gutenberg.

Getting started is the hardest part of an attack. Once you have begun diving you're all right. The pilot just ahead turns tail up like a trout dropping back to water, and swoops down in irregular curves and circles. You follow at an angle so steep your feet seem to be holding you back in your seat. Now the black Maltese crosses on the German's wings stand out clearly. You think of him as some sort of big bug. Then you hear the rapid tut-tut-tut of his machine gun. The man that dived ahead of you becomes mixed up with the topmost German. He is so close it looks as if he had hit the enemy machine. You hear the staccato barking of his mitrailleuse and see him pass from under the German's tail.

The rattle of the gun that is aimed at you leaves you undisturbed. Only when the bullets pierce the wings a few feet off do you become uncomfortable. You see the gunner crouched down behind his weapon, but you aim at where the pilot ought to be--there are two men aboard the German craft--and press on the release hard. Your mitrailleuse hammers out a stream of bullets as you pass over and dive, nose down, to get out of range. Then, hopefully, you re-dress and look back at the foe. He ought to be dropping earthward at several miles a minute. As a matter of fact, however, he is sailing serenely on. They have an annoying habit of doing that, these Boches.

Rockwell, who attacked so often that he has lost all count, and who shoves his machine gun fairly in the faces of the Germans, used to swear their planes were armoured. Lieutenant de Laage, whose list of combats is equally extensive, has brought down only one. Hall, with three machines to his credit, has had more luck. Lufbery, who evidently has evolved a secret formula, has dropped four, according to official statistics, since his arrival on the Verdun front. Four "palms"--the record for the escadrille, glitter upon the ribbon of the Croix de Guerre accompanying his Médaille Militaire. [Footnote: This book was written in the fall of 1915. Since that time many additional machines have been credited to the American flyers.]

 

[Timerover51]

I apologize for resurrecting my own thread, but I mentioned posting the manning of US Army Air Force combat groups, and I have the needed image for that. Then I have some sample aircraft that I would love to have someone try to duplicate using the COACC design sequence.


Then here is the World War 2 Bomb damage radius against load-bearing brick buildings assuming a loading of only TNT.


Note, the bomb damage radius has not changed in any significant way since World War 2. Improved explosives such as Torpex do increase the radius by 25%. However, TNT and Composition B are still the primary bomb explosive loadings.

 

[Kakistocrat]

I was thinking more of the exchange rate between historic currency like the US Dollar and the British Pound to Imperial Credits. Up to about 1931, the British Pound was valued at $4.875 US, so about $5 US to 1 British Pound. During the 1930s and World War 2, the British Pound was valued at about $4 US. In late 1949, the Bretton Woods Agreement pegged the Pound at $2.80 US, and in late 1967, the rate changed to $2.40 US to 1 British Pound. In 1971, the US formally dropped valuing gold at $35 to the ounce, and let the Dollar float against gold, basically ending the period of fixed exchange rates.

As most of my information is valued in US Dollars and British Pounds, when I quote a price, I will give the year that the price was valid for, so as to simplify valuation in Imperial Credits.

Once the pure gold content (by mass) of the eagle (the $10 coin) stabilized in 1837, the ratio of the pure gold content of the eagle to that of the sovereign (the £1 coin) was precisely 18,067 eagles to 88,000 sovereigns, so the gold dollar ratio then was 18,067 gold dollars to 8,800 sovereigns, and thus £1 ≈ $4.87076. (This presumes agreement on the mass of a troy grain between the US and the UK. Before 1959, there were slight differences between them, with the US grain being slightly larger, so this ratio is sometimes given as £1 ≈ $4.86656, using the 1894 US definition of the grain vs. the current international definition of the grain for the UK.) Market arbitrage would vary the daily exchange rate, even during the heyday of the gold standard. The fixed exchange rate was permanently changed in 1933, with FDR’s devaluation of the dollar against gold from $20.67 per troy ounce to $35.00 per troy ounce.

[…] On that [gold] basis, 1 Imperial Credit, on a Tech Level 15 World be worth about $2 US, if I am correctly figuring a base Imperial Credit level for valuation of Tech Level 15.

An implicit supposition here is that gold is equally rare (or at least equally valued) within the Third Imperium as it is on Earth in our era.

 

[Timerover51]

An implicit supposition here is that gold is equally rare (or at least equally valued) within the Third Imperium as it is on Earth in our era.

The assumption is based on a one ounce Gold Droyne Coyn being worth 200 Credits in 1980 when Research Station Gamma was written. The average price of Gold in 1979 was $306 per ounce, in 1980 the average price was $615 per ounce. The price per ounce dropped back to $460.00 in 1981. In my view, that value of the Coyn indicates that Gold is rare in the Third Imperium.

 

[aramis]

UK £ to US $ in 1920 is just shy of £1 = $5 - looks to be about $4.90. Using 5 for simplicity.
3,300£ = (1920) $16500
The CPI based calculator lists 1920$16500 as 1977$49,995. The rulebook price quoth is 41,600. A bit under.

I've verified the prices in CT against 1976 and 1977 magazines - for those items available then. 1977 US $1 is roughly CrImp1. Hence why it's all being converted to US 1977 dollars. The UK £ was fluctuating a bit, around $2.25±$0.3 per 1£

The second plane, the 1945 US $50,985 is 1977 US $171,649.50, vs Cr 135,700

The third, the f86, entered service in 1949, so that is the year I'm using.
1949 $219,457.00 per, so 1977 US $558,785.47. Timerover51 cites Cr439,000.

All of these seem a bit off, but all in the same direction.

The 200 Year Pound to Dollar Exchange Rate History - From $5 in 1800s to Today's $1.29 | Articles | Exchange Rates UK

The 200 Year Pound to Dollar Exchange Rate History - From $5 in 1800s to Today's $1.29 | Articles | Exchange Rates UK

www.exchangerates.org.uk

$16,500 in 1920 → 1977 | Inflation Calculator

The 1.96% inflation rate means $16,500 in 1920 is equivalent to $49,995.00 in 1977. This inflation calculator uses the official US consumer price index.

www.in2013dollars.com

 

[Kakistocrat]

The assumption is based on a one ounce Gold Droyne Coyn being worth 200 Credits in 1980 when Research Station Gamma was written. The average price of Gold in 1979 was $306 per ounce, in 1980 the average price was $615 per ounce. The price per ounce dropped back to $460.00 in 1981. In my view, that value of the Coyn indicates that Gold is rare in the Third Imperium.

Was the credit price of a gold coyn of a particular mass due solely to its gold content, or was there some element of “collectibility” to the gold coyn (e.g. rarity outside of Droyne societies, intrinsic cultural/artistic value, &c.) that enhanced its credit price?

 

[Kakistocrat]

UK £ to US $ in 1920 is just shy of £1 = $5 — looks to be about $4.90. Using 5 for simplicity.
3,300£ = (1920) $16500
The CPI based calculator lists 1920$16500 as 1977$49,995. The rulebook price quoth is 41,600. A bit under.

I’ve verified the prices in CT against 1976 and 1977 magazines — for those items available then. 1977 US $1 is roughly CrImp1. Hence why it’s all being converted to US 1977 dollars. The UK £ was fluctuating a bit, around $2.25±$0.3 per 1£

The second plane, the 1945 US $50,985 is 1977 US $171,649.50, vs Cr 135,700

The third, the f86, entered service in 1949, so that is the year I’m using.
1949 $219,457.00 per, so 1977 US $558,785.47. Timerover51 cites Cr439,000.

All of these seem a bit off, but all in the same direction.

For what it’s worth, here’s what Frink gives today for these exchange rates to/from 1977 US dollars:

3300 GBP_1920 -> USD_1977​

39944.3324605034995​

​

50985 USD_1945 -> USD_1977​

173965.302197802198​

​

219457 USD_1949 -> USD_1977​

577469.478813559324​

​

USD_1977 -> USD​

4.9664573268921095​

(An updated version of Frink can also update its historical exchange rates as needed, so these results will not necessarily remain the same if the same conversion is requested on different dates, particularly if the requests are separated by a year or more.)

 

[Kakistocrat]

Once the pure gold content (by mass) of the eagle (the $10 coin) stabilized in 1837, the ratio of the pure gold content of the eagle to that of the sovereign (the £1 coin) was precisely 18,067 eagles to 88,000 sovereigns, so the gold dollar ratio then was 18,067 gold dollars to 8,800 sovereigns, and thus £1 ≈ $4.87076.

I flubbed the coin ratios there — the fixed exchange rate by gold mass of £1 ≈ $4.87076 actually corresponds to 8,800 eagles to 18,067 sovereigns and 88,000 gold dollars to 18,067 sovereigns respectively. Exchanging in the other direction, a $10 eagle would be a bit less than £2 1 s. 0 d. 3 q., and a gold dollar would be a bit more than £0 4 s. 1 d. 1 q.

 

[aramis]

For what it’s worth, here’s what Frink gives today for these exchange rates to/from 1977 US dollars:

3300 GBP_1920 -> USD_1977​

39944.3324605034995​

​

50985 USD_1945 -> USD_1977​

173965.302197802198​

​

219457 USD_1949 -> USD_1977​

577469.478813559324​

​

USD_1977 -> USD​

4.9664573268921095​

(An updated version of Frink can also update its historical exchange rates as needed, so these results will not necessarily remain the same if the same conversion is requested on different dates, particularly if the requests are separated by a year or more.)

Only the first one was in UK £... the rest were already in dollars.