General Collector Discussion

[whulorigan]

Since there is some kind of inter-relationship between gravity and Jump space (as evidenced by the fact that a ship is precipitated out of Jump Space by gravity wells in normal space), perhaps the "exotic particles" are related to whatever Dark Matter turns out to be (WIMPs, Supersymmetric particles, etc - see Wikipedia for candidates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter#Theoretical_classifications) or to "Dark Energy" (which is evenly distributed throughout the Universe). Since both of these things actually do exist in some form due to their observed effects (they are not an utter "hand-wave" - we just do not know what they are yet), they might have potential as a Collector Source (and should certainly be understood by TL-14).

Quick description from the CERN website abut Dark Matter and Dark Energy (short & interesting read and non-technical):
https://home.cern/science/physics/dark-matter


EDIT: Note also that there may be some cross-over here with Globe-technology (perhaps Collector technology forms part of the technical basis behind the more advanced TL16 Black Globe)), since T5 material seems to imply there is some potential relationship between Globes and Jump Space (because Globe-equipped ships that also use the hull-grid jump-readiness option have the option of having the "globe" conform to the exterior contour of the ship hull/grid while in operation. (This may not have survived into T5.10, but was in the text under "Options" in either T5.00 or T5.09 - I do not remember which off hand)).

 

[Spinward Flow]

Natural, free-range antimatter?

I kinda like that idea.

A paper published 19 July 2019 discovered that terrestrial lightning (the stuff that hits the planet Terra some 500x per day) generate antimatter, most of which gets blasted upwards along the magnetic field lines of the planet out into space.

LINK (Youtube explaining video)

Needless to say, such research was not available to Sci Fi authors 40+ years ago in the late 70s/early 80s.

Not sure it's consistent with canon -- surely someone would have mentioned it by now if it was -- but it's not too difficult to shoehorn it in retroactively. The canopy creates a stand-off surface effect that attracts antimatter and channels it to the accumulator, where it's stored under gravitic containment.

This is different from T5 antimatter containment (probably far lower density, and not transferable from containment except into a Jump Drive; it can't be used to generate antimatter for use as a power supply).

Under CT rules in LBBs, antimatter power is a tech level 17 advancement. Everything up until then (tech level 9-16) is fusion power. However, there's a big difference between needing to create a powerful "flash" of intense energy and needing to create a steady "baseline" of constant energy for use (ask any bomb how a power plant works). Depending on which way you want to argue things (so, your mileage may vary), the intense energy "flash" power needed to enter jump space could theoretically be more suited to an instantaneous antimatter power release than a fuel wasteful overdrive of a fusion reactor at low efficiency (which is the canon way of doing it).

I certainly agree with you that gravitic containment of the antimatter (once collected) would be a preferred engineering solution, although the optimal would undoubtedly be a combination of magnetic AND gravitic containment (so as to plug up the "holes" that inevitably happen with "leaky magnetic bottles" and particles that escape containment). Of course, no engineered solution is going to be 100% perfect, so some amount of wear/degradation over time of the containment system is basically going to be inevitable, kind of like galvanic corrosion tends to be inevitable with a lot of materials (especially those dunked in salt water or exposed to solar radiation in space). So you would wind up with a containment system using magnetic and gravitic containment technologies featuring an ablative lining that is essentially a sacrificial material in need of periodic replacement due to degradation over time. Make the sacrificial ablative lining something that's relatively easy/cheap to replace during overhauls and you're good to go.

But I need to give some thought to what it breaks in the rule system.

ETA: If it loses its charge over the course of a day while the canopy is folded, where would the antimatter be going, and how much damage would it do as it went there? It could kind of explain the canopy wear rate, but still...

ETA 2: It's not the canopy that's wearing out over time -- the containment system is eroding!

Exactly. If you bundle the collector canopy and containment storage system into one overall engineering challenge, then both would tend to be degraded over time as antimatter particles are captured and stored. You would also presumably need to be sacrificing some kind of matter (in a controlled way, of course) to attain the antimatter "flash" power needed to enter jump space, all of which would need upkeep and overhauls to maintain in working operable conditions.

So from a rules lawyering standpoint, it's actually the canopy AND the collector/containment/jump drive power system that erodes with use, so (annual) overhauls of those systems are needed to replace designed sacrificial components that allow the whole thing to work properly. The jump drives themselves can be "conventional" in that they simply need to accept the "flash" power generated by the collector system as opposed to the "flash" power generated by a fusion powerplant overdriven to wasteful inefficiency levels needed to generate the necessary power threshold to enter jump space. So the collector system operates more on an instantaneous "bomb" power type basis that is suitable for powering jump drives to initiate a jump than a steady "baseline" power load basis that is suitable for powering a ship continuously for weeks.

Ultimately it all comes down to a difference in compromises in the engineering (doesn't it always? ). The collector system gathers fuel "slowly" while the fusion system can be refueled much more quickly (skimming, starports, etc.), so in the Imperium at least, the infrastructure for fusion is much more common (and well understood). Both systems "work" as far as that goes, but the supporting technologies for fusion are more common, readily available and understood, therefore "cheaper" to build and maintain in starships. So you wind up with a situation of two answers to the same problem (how to power jump drives) in which each has their pros and cons, and fusion power is simply the more widely used because it is useful in normal space AND jump space, rather than being a jump only "niche" technology that needs to be maintained along a completely separate technological track from fusion power (making a lot of things more complicated for the engineers).

So ... nifty ... but not exactly necessary.

This kind of "neat, but no thanks" sort of attitude among engineers could then easily explain why the Annic Nova is practically an anachronism mix of high and low technology that's more of a curiosity ("oh wow, somebody actually tried that and it worked, huh...") than a missing link technological breakthrough that gets the ship impounded and torn apart so as to reverse engineer its secrets.

 

[Condottiere]

Almost all of the fundamental Traveller technologies are based on their understanding of gravitation, and probably it's connection to some form of unified field theory.

 

[Grav_Moped]

... Note also that there may be some cross-over here with Globe-technology (perhaps Collector technology forms part of the technical basis behind the more advanced TL16 Black Globe)), since T5 material seems to imply there is some potential relationship between Globes and Jump Space (because Globe-equipped ships that also use the hull-grid jump-readiness option have the option of having the "globe" conform to the exterior contour of the ship hull/grid while in operation. (This may not have survived into T5.10, but was in the text under "Options" in either T5.00 or T5.09 - I do not remember which off hand)).

I'd considered that (see my upthread musings about a hypothetical star-killing weapon being the source for the Collector on Annic Nova).

My techobabble for it was that it was a high tech surface effect conducted over a relatively mundane canopy (Sci-Fi Space Metallized Mylar or something), but only capable of absorbing electromagnetic, thermal, or radiation energy, not kinetic energy. The technological advancement that enabled it to be implemented as a stand-off sphere that also intercepts kinetic energy, disrupts the field's ability to collect "magic particles" for Jump.

 

[Condottiere]

I'm dubious as to that being the direct connection between the two, black globes can dump energy into the capacitors, and as far as I know, don't collect exotic particles, unless they are transformed into energy.

 

[whulorigan]

I'm dubious as to that being the direct connection between the two, black globes can dump energy into the capacitors, and as far as I know, don't collect exotic particles, unless they are transformed into energy.

Particles are mass-energy by definition, just like all other radiation. Globes collect particle radiation all the time (Particle accelerator weapons, EM-radiation (weaponized or not), etc.) and convert/shunt it to somewhere else (capacitors in some configurations, heat sinks in others, etc).

The issue with a Collector is that it uses the readily available exotic particles it collects to provide the energy needed for the drive, and/or part of the mechanism of the Collector is to convert the exotic particle radiation thru some high-energy interaction into whatever is needed to initiate a jump-field.

I'm not suggesting that Globes and Collectors are the same thing, but rather that they are perhaps related technologies that interact with the Jump Space domain in some way.

 

[Condottiere]

Speculatively, exotic particles, if associated if jump space, could be transdimensional, which would explain why they would permit such a transition, possibly creating a gateway when excited.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Just noticed something.

MgT Collectors don't self-discharge within hours ("about a day") as T5 Collectors do. This makes a J3+J2 Annic Nova possible (if it all fits, but I haven't checked).

They do share the T5 Collectors' ability to operate without proximity to a star.

Unlike CT and T5 Collectors, there doesn't seem to be an acceleration limit for MgT ones when stowed (CT didn't specify, but it's heavily implied by the design of the one canon ship that had them).

The other thing about MgT Collectors is, that due to the way Jump power requirements work in that system, they (and by this I mean Jump Drives in general) don't need additional power during the week in Jump.

 

[Condottiere]

This charge is released in a single spike to power a jump drive;

 

[Grav_Moped]

This charge is released in a single spike to power a jump drive;

Yep. The way I've seen the Pn=Jn requirement (from High Guard onward) is that the jump drive needs that much power supplied continuously throughout the jump to keep the bubble from going poof. MgT seems not to work that way.

Which means that my comments upthread about Collectors not being able to intercept enough stellar radiation to make Jump work except in LBB2 '77 don't apply to MgT either.

ANNIC NOVA can work in MgT. And if you posit that Collectors are also solar panels in addition to their habit of picking up strange particles in poorly-lit areas, it doesn't need a separate power plant, just batteries (like the MgT XBoat). You just need a nearby star -- and that gets you back to the original description of collectors.

 

[Fovean]

Yep. The way I've seen the Pn=Jn requirement (from High Guard onward) is that the jump drive needs that much power supplied continuously throughout the jump to keep the bubble from going poof. MgT seems not to work that way.

Yeah, MgT posits the big power spike is required up front to rip open space-time and the jump fuel is necessary to protect the ship from jump space (a bubble of boiling hydrogen creating its own pocket universe). I read it that the hydrogen bubble decays over time (148+6D hours per 2e Core rules) and at a certain point collapses, depositing the ship back into normal space.

I’ve always played it that the jump drive powers down or perhaps idles during the week in jump space but I suppose that’s open to interpretation.

MgT 1e used letter drives akin to CT while 2e uses percentages ala CT High Guard. Not sure how either relates to Pn=Jn but the MgT ships all seem basically compatible with earlier editions.

 

[Grav_Moped]

...MgT 1e used letter drives akin to CT while 2e uses percentages ala CT High Guard. Not sure how either relates to Pn=Jn but the MgT ships all seem basically compatible with earlier editions.

I’ve always played it that the jump drive powers down or perhaps idles during the week in jump space but I suppose that’s open to interpretation.

Yeah, it looks like MgT2 doesn't do Pn, just counts Power Points without having a "rating" defined in terms of "energy/displacement". Still, the power point requirement for a jump drive of Jn*tons is the same as that for a maneuver drive of G*tons, so it kind of looks like they're doing it without saying they're doing it (give or take the "basic ship systems" overhead).

As I see it (later CT, but not '77 and apparently not MgT), the Jump Drive does its big burn then stops generating its own power (too inefficient), and switches over to the power plant for the energy needed to keep jump space at bay. Collectors somehow provide this power instead of needing a power plant, possibly because whatever they collect is really, really efficient at doing that.

In '77 and MgT, once the energy burst rips the hole in spacetime and punches a bubble of normal-space (containing the ship) into it, the bubble stays inflated without any additional power input.

 

[Condottiere]

What the bubble consists of is deliberately vague, outside of the fact is that it's foreign matter in another dimension.

I tend to think that, once it was clear to me that the jump drive is switched off after creating the rabbit hole, is that the starship coasts to the exit point.

 

[Grav_Moped]

What the bubble consists of is deliberately vague, outside of the fact is that it's foreign matter in another dimension.

I tend to think that, once it was clear to me that the jump drive is switched off after creating the rabbit hole, is that the starship coasts to the exit point.

Makes sense in MgT (and if I recall correctly, that's your primary rule set); there, you only need the 10PP*100Td*Jn when you start to follow the rabbit. Once you're in Wonderland, you only need to keep the lights, air, and gravity running. The bubble takes care of itself.

In CT (except for '77 rules), the Pn=Jn mandate and 4-week fuel allocation strongly suggest the bubble needs lots of juice to keep from popping early.

Different systems. 4 decades will do that to a game...

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Given that jump space travel is such a core feature of traveller, the lack of detail is a definite blind-spot that has nagged for years. What can the engineers do in jump space.

Running life support: yes.
But what is the M-Drive doing (Maintenance?)
Power must be up for life support - but with all the M-Drive, radars, etc shut down it's limited to cooling/heating and air circulation. Hardly a major power drain.
And then there is that pesky J-Drive. Is it on or off? Does it need maintenance during each jump? Do you have it on, maintaining a jump-bubble? If so, what happens if that single powerplant fails? So what backup do powerplants have to allow for a crash and restart during jump? Basically nothing so that can't be bubble critical - which suggests that the J-Drive needn't be on.

The Independence Games version is far clearer. Turn the drive off and you fall out. But Traveller/Cepheus is woolly.

Can a saboteur affect the Jump once initiated? (It seems not)

But neither can the crew.

Indeed, until T5 there was nothing that could affect jump. With T5, the passage of a jump has to hope that there's nothing in the Oort cloud of start or end system bigger than the ship or you end up stuck a long way from the intended landing spot. Small ships have a very real chance of being accidentally precipitated. 4 weeks fuel is NOT enough to survive that!

 

[Spinward Flow]

With T5, the passage of a jump has to hope that there's nothing in the Oort cloud of start or end system bigger than the ship or you end up stuck a long way from the intended landing spot. Small ships have a very real chance of being accidentally precipitated. 4 weeks fuel is NOT enough to survive that!

"Flying through space ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise navigation you could fly right through a star, bounce too close to a supernova and that would end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"
- Han Solo, Episode IV

 

[BackworldTraveller]

"Flying through space ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise navigation you could fly right through a star, bounce too close to a supernova and that would end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"
- Han Solo, Episode IV

Stars and Supernovae are easily spotted from some distance*. Even our very best telescopes can't see Oort cloud bodies of 1000 dTons - and our optics are about as good as they get, so those high-tech guys need lots of time (or/and lots of as yet unknown improvements) to map the smaller stuff.

*English Understatement

 

[Condottiere]

I doubt that the Scout Service is charting empty hexes for the fun of it.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Replying to myself:

From the Yacht Thread:
-----------------------------
Condottiere said:

I think this was meant to be a one off.

An ancient artifact that allows you to traverse warpspace without massive fuel use.

Plot hole is that the Imperium doesn't immediately confiscate it upon learning of it's existence and confine it at in Area Fifty One.

-------------------------

And that's one of the obstacles to reconciling it to the rules. As-is, it has to be TL 15 or lower, and no more efficient than canon technology (otherwise, you don't get it back at the end of the scenario).

It could have been much higher TL way back when, but as presented there can't be anything higher than TL 15 on board.

.... and I've solved it (see my contributions to the Day in the Life of a Traveller Gamestory thread).

The Imperial inspectors evaluating it had a serious case of "Not Invented Here" syndrome.
The Third Imperium knows about ordinary Collectors (TL 14+, described by MgT/T5 rules).
From that perspective, the ANNIC NOVA's "Stellar Collectors" are inferior (novel, but inferior) technology. They charge slower, and can't charge in deep space. Based on that, they interpret it as a variant "Experimental Collector-3" (TL 13) not warranting further investigation, instead of a combined "Early Stellar Collector-3 (TL 16) and Stellar Collector-2 (TL 15)". (They also don't want to be aboard the ship any longer than absolutely necessary {Spoiler for DA1}

Spoiler:

despite the ship having been thoroughly decontaminated of the lethal pathogens centered in Location 15, they're still afraid of catching the disease).

So they rush things, and miss a critically important feature.

They completely overlook the Collector's ability to store a charge after folding the canopy, and make a second, consecutive Jump.
In this, they are aided by a software misconfiguation resulting from replacing the computer's original alien operating system with a standard Imperial one. The new OS reads the Collector-3 and Collector-2 units as a single Collector-3 because that's the default setting for Collectors. It discharges the entire Collector reserve into the selected Jump Drive on activation, with the excess "waste-gated" out the Jump Drive's exhaust by automatic overload systems. Thus, the inspectors never had the opportunity to see the Collector complete a Jump with 40-60% capacity remaining.

Restoring the alien operating system, or adjusting the default Collector Drive configuration in software, will restore double-jump capability.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Whoops, and I can't edit. Early Collector-3 is TL 15, not 16.

PC Load Jump Drive Fuel?! What does that even mean?