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CT Only: Combat Report - testing HG2 rules "fixes"

OK. So to test the proposed rules fixed out, I fought two identical engagements, between two cruiser squadrons. Each squadron consisted of four 36KT cruisers at TL15. One side had all Meson armed cruisers; the other had all Particle-Accelerator armed cruisers. In the first engagement I used classic HG2 rules. In the second engagement I used my four proposed "fixes" (but allowing the Meson guns - should they hit - to keep their radiation roll). NOTE that I did NOT require the Mesons to penetrate the meson screens - they simply acted as "armour against mesons".


The Cruiser (M) was as follows:

36,000 tons, needle/wedge, fuel scoops & purification plant
J-3 6G PP-B 3,960EP Agility 6
Model/9 fib
Meson gun (Factor-J), eighteen 50-ton missile bays; 35 triple beam laser turrets organized as 5 batteries; 5 double fusion gun turrets organized as 1 battery
Armoured hull (factor-F); Meson screen (factor-9); Nuclear Damper (factor-9); five 50-ton Repulsor bays; 50 triple sandcaster turrets organized as 5 batteries
Crew: 43 officers, 274 ratings. MCr 36,898.22 single; MCr 29,518.576 in quantity

My four ships to this design were called Africa, Brazil, China and Delhi



The Cruiser (P) was as follows:

36,000 tons, needle/wedge, fuel scoops & purification plant
J-3 6G PP-B 3,960EP Agility 6
Model/9 fib
Particle Accelerator (factor P); one 50 ton Meson Gun bay; one 50 ton missile bay; 14 triple laser turrets organized as 2 batteries; 1 single fusion gun turret organized as 1 battery
Armoured Hull (factor-E); Meson Screen (factor-9); Nuclear Damper (factor-9); one 50-ton repulsor bay; 20 triple sandcaster turrets organized as 2 batteries
Crew: 40 officers, 246 ratings
MCr 35,669.22 singly; MCr 28,535.376 in quantity

My four ships to this design were called Whisky, X-Ray, Yankee and Zulu
 
The first battle: using classic HG rules.

First turn. Initiative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Long Range. Both commanders put all four ships in the line. The Cruiser (M) fleet split its meson fire between the four Cruisers (P), and concentrated its 64 nuclear missile salvoes on the Whisky. The Cruisers (P) concentrated all of their fire on the Africa. The Africa suffered 2 particle accelerator hits, but all the damage it sustained was a single weapon hit, taken by its Meson gun. The Whisky suffered 6 nuclear missile hits, causing loss of 295 tons of fuel and 1 weapon hit (taken by the particle accelerator).


Second turn. Initiative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Long range. All ships in the line. The Cruiser (M) fleet again split its Meson fire whilst concentrating its nuclear missiles - this time on the X-Ray. The Cruiser (P) fleet again concentrated all of its fire on a single ship - this time the Brazil. The Brazil suffered 4 particle accelerator hits, but its armour deflected most of the damage. It suffered just 3 weapon hits, which were taken by its meson gun, missiles and repulsors. The X-Ray suffered 6 nuclear missile hits, resulting in the loss of 295 tons of fuel and 3 weapon hits, which were suffered by it Particle Accelerator, Missiles and Repulsor.


Third turn. Initiative: Cruiser (M) fleet. Short range. All ships in the line. The Cruisers (M) again split their meson fire, whilst concentrating their missile fire - this time on the Yankee. The Cruisers (P) concentrated the whole weight of their fire on the China. The Yankee suffered 4 nuclear missile hits, which caused loss of 148 tons of fuel. The China suffered 3 particle accelerator hits, resulting in two weapon hits. These were taken by the Meson Gun and Repulsors.


Fourth Turn. Initiative: Cruiser (M) fleet. Short range. All ships in line. The Cruiser (M) fleet again split their fire, and concentrated their missile fire on the Yankee again. The Cruiser (P) fleet concentrated its fire on the Delhi. The Yankee suffered 4 nuclear missile hits, resulting in the loss of 148 tons of fuel and two weapon hits, which were taken by the particle accelerator and missile bay. The Delhi was struck by 3 particle accelerators, causing two weapon hits which were taken by the Meson gun and the repulsors.


Fifth turn. Initiative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Long range. All ships in line. The Cruiser (M) fleet again divided its meson fire, and concentrated its missiles on the Zulu. The Cruiser (P) fleet concentrated its fire on the Brazil. The Zulu suffered 6 nuclear missile hits, resulting in the loss of 148 tons of fuel and 2 weapon hits, which were taken on the particle accelerator and repulsor. The Brazil was hit by all four particle accelerators and suffered 4 weapon hits, which were taken on the sandcasters, lasers, fusion guns and meson gun.


Sixth turn. Initiative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Long Range. All ships in line. The cruiser (M) fleet again divided its meson fire and concentrated its missile attack on the X-Ray. The Cruiser (P) fleet concentrated its fire on the Brazil. The X-Ray suffered 6 nuclear missile hits, causing the loss of 148 tons of fuel and four weapons hits, which were taken by the sandcasters, lasers, fusion guns and particle accelerator. The Brazil was struck by all four particle accelerators and suffered two weapons hits, which were taken by the missiles and repulsors.


Seventh turn. Initiative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Long range. All 8 ships in line. Both fleets divided their fire as before. The X-Ray was struck by 6 nuclear missiles, causing 4 weapon hits which were taken by the missiles, repulsor, sandcasters and lasers. The Brazil was hit by two particle accelerators, causing a single weapon hit which was taken by the sandcasters.


Eighth turn. Initiative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Long range. All ships in line. Same division of fire as before. The X-ray suffered a further 6 nuclear missile strikes, causing the loss of a further 443 tons of fuel and two weapons hits which were taken by the fusion gun and the particle accelerator. Only one particle accelerator struck the Brazil, causing a single weapon hit to the lasers.


Ninth turn. Iniative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Short range. All 8 in line. The commander of the Cruiser (P) fleet shortened the range because the enemy's meson guns were not failing to register hits: they were simply failing to penetrate his meson screens. And the enemy's missiles would cause him less harm at short range than at long range. The division of fire on both sides was exactly as it had been for the last few turns. Surprisingly, the X-Ray still suffered another 6 nuclear missile strikes, causing 3 weapon hits which were taken by the missiles, repulsors and sandcasters. The Brazil was hit by two particle accelerators, causing a single weapon hit which was taken by the fusion gun.


Tenth turn. Initiative: Cruiser (M) fleet. Short range. All 8 ships in line. More of the same ... same old story. 3 particle accelerator hits on the Brazil, causing 3 weapon hits which were taken by the meson gun, missiles and repulsors. 6 nuclear missile hits on the X-Ray causing 6 weapon hits. The X-Ray's weapon systems were now sufficiently degraded that on the next turn the commander of the Cruiser (M) squadron felt that he could switch his missile fire to the Zulu; but the commander of the Cruiser (P) squadron felt that as he was now reducing the potency of the Brazil's missile attack, by actually reducing the number of missile batteries bearing, he should keep his fire on the Brazil for the time being.


Elecenth turn. Initiative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Short range. All 8 ships in line. Once again the meson attack failed to bite. The meson guns had now scored 18 hits, all of which had failed to penetrate the screens of the Cruisers (P). The statistical expectation is that 3 of them should have done, and that two of those ought to have penetrated the configuration as well, resulting in half of the Cruisers (P) being knocked out. But in small squadron actions, the die rolls sometimes defy the odds! 5 nuclear missiles penetrated the Zulu's nuclear damper, resulting in a loss of a further 148 tons of fuel and 3 weapons hits which were taken by the missiles, sandcasters and lasers. The particle accelerators scored three hits on the Brazil, resulting in only a single weapon hit, which was taken by the sandcasters.


By this stage I had lost the will to live, and stopped playing. It was clear what the outcome of the battle was going to be. The particle accelerators were only ever going to be able to nibble away at the weapon systems of the Cruisers (M), and at either short or long range the Cruisers (M) were able to nibble away at the Cruisers (P) a little bit faster with their missiles. Sooner or later a meson shot would penetrate and completely knock out a Cruiser (P) - and this would then increase the discrepancy between the rate at which the Cruisers (M) were wearing down the fighting power of the Cruisers (P) and the rate at which the Cruisers (P) were wearing down the fighting power of the Cruisers (M).

But ... and here is the rub - this position had been reached WITHOUT THE CRUISERS (M) EVERY LANDING A HIT WITH THEIR PROIMARY WEAPONS - they had done it all with their secondaries.

This shows two things about HG2 standard combat:

1. In a high-tech, high-armour world, even high-factor Particle Accelerators are pretty pointless pieces of kit. They cannot land killer blows; and they are less effective at doing incremental damage than the same tonnage deveted to missile bays.

2. Modest sized Meson Guns aren't much better. Their ability actually to hit a ship with a factor-9 meson screen is pathetic - albeit that the hits, when they come - are devastating.
 
The second battle: using HG2 modified by my proposed fixes (discussed elsewhere).

First turn. Initiative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Long range. All 8 ships in the line. The Cruiser (M) fleet divided its fire between the four Cruisers (P), and concentrated its missile fire on the Whisky. The Cruiser (P) fleet divided its spinal weapons fire between the four Cruisers (M), and concentrated its limited missile fire on the Africa.

The Africa was struck by a Factor-P Particle Accelerator resulting in a weapon hit to the Meson Gun, disablement of its Manoeuvre Drive and Nuclear Damper, and loss of two points of armour from the two critical hits.

Brazil was unharmed.

China was hit by a factor-P particle accelerator and vaporized.

Delhi was unharmed.

Whisky was hit by a Factor-J meson gun which penetrated its configuration and by 6 nuclear missiles which penetrated its nuclear damper. It suffered a hit to is Jump drive, and two weapon hits which were taken by its Particle Accelerator and Repulsors.



Turn 2. Initiative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Long range. All 7 ships in line.

Africa was hit by Whisky's Particle Accelerator, which disabled the power plant and scored another weapons hit which was taken by the missiles.

Brazil was hit by X-ray's Particle Accelerator, which knocked out the jump drive, decimated the crew and caused a weapon hit which was taken by the meson gun.

Delhi was hit by particle accelerators from Yankee and Zulu, which knocked out the Power Plant and nuclear damper, degraded the armour by 4 points, and caused weapon hits to the meson gun and missiles.

Whisky was hit by 6 nuclear missiles which caused 3 more weapon hits. These were taken by the missiles, sandcasters and lasers.


And with that, the battle was effectively over. The Cruisers (M) were in no fit condition to carry on fighting.


So for an engagement of this type, the proposed fixes clearly tip the balance too far the other way.
 
Conclusions:

1. I think I like the effect of meson-screen-as-armour-against-meson-guns: it reduced their potency. But does it reduce it too far? A relatively modest meson screen makes those critical hits inaccessible. Is that what we want for our meson weaponry? I'm not sure it is.

2. Simply scrapping the ability of armour to reduce the number of hits scored by a larger-than-ship-code weapon means that a larger-than-ship-code weapon is terrifying in its effects. This is, of course, what I was setting out to achieve - to create the incentive to build larger ships - but I think it is at present too destructive. I still don't like the ability of armour to reduce these criticals - I think it makes armour too effective - so I am thinking that maybe it should be a square root based progression instead of a direct linear progression, i.e.

Weapon code 1 - 3 greater than ship size code: 1 automatic critical hit
Weapon code 4 - 8 greater than ship size code: 2 automatic critical hits
Weapon code 9 - 15 greater than ship size code: 3 automatic critical hits
Weapon code 16+ greater than ship size code: 4 automatic critical hits
 
Yeah, I eventually figured that out and deleted the interrupting post. :eek:

From the first encounter, I'd lean way more towards high defense, missile armed Cruisers ... At least at TL 15. (From listening to conversations, I get the impression that optimal weapon balance keeps shifting with TLs.)
 
(From listening to conversations, I get the impression that optimal weapon balance keeps shifting with TLs.)

It does.

But the Particle Accelerators don't pull their weight ... and at higher tech levels, you can have so much armour that the outcomes can be a little silly.
 
Or you could just go with armour/3 reduction of crits ;)

I think it wants to be independent of armour.

But if it IS going to be tied to armour ... then I think that the armour should never be able to reduce the number of critical hits caused by outsized weapons below 1.

Actually ... maybe that would be all it takes ...
 
The second battle: using HG2 modified by my proposed fixes (discussed elsewhere).

First turn. Initiative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Long range. All 8 ships in the line. The Cruiser (M) fleet divided its fire between the four Cruisers (P), and concentrated its missile fire on the Whisky. The Cruiser (P) fleet divided its spinal weapons fire between the four Cruisers (M), and concentrated its limited missile fire on the Africa.

The Africa was struck by a Factor-P Particle Accelerator resulting in a weapon hit to the Meson Gun, disablement of its Manoeuvre Drive and Nuclear Damper, and loss of two points of armour from the two critical hits.

Brazil was unharmed.

China was hit by a factor-P particle accelerator and vaporized.

Delhi was unharmed.

Whisky was hit by a Factor-J meson gun which penetrated its configuration and by 6 nuclear missiles which penetrated its nuclear damper. It suffered a hit to is Jump drive, and two weapon hits which were taken by its Particle Accelerator and Repulsors.



Turn 2. Initiative: Cruiser (P) fleet. Long range. All 7 ships in line.

Africa was hit by Whisky's Particle Accelerator, which disabled the power plant and scored another weapons hit which was taken by the missiles.

Brazil was hit by X-ray's Particle Accelerator, which knocked out the jump drive, decimated the crew and caused a weapon hit which was taken by the meson gun.

Delhi was hit by particle accelerators from Yankee and Zulu, which knocked out the Power Plant and nuclear damper, degraded the armour by 4 points, and caused weapon hits to the meson gun and missiles.

Whisky was hit by 6 nuclear missiles which caused 3 more weapon hits. These were taken by the missiles, sandcasters and lasers.


And with that, the battle was effectively over. The Cruisers (M) were in no fit condition to carry on fighting.


So for an engagement of this type, the proposed fixes clearly tip the balance too far the other way.

The ships ARE pretty disparate MeJ (small) vs PaP (large) also, widely divergent Missile Bay numbers.

Also, I thought the point of the exercise was 200kdt hulls? The smaller hulls pretty much always did get reamed. The idea, or so I though, was to test foe larger hulls.
 
The ships ARE pretty disparate MeJ (small) vs PaP (large) also, widely divergent Missile Bay numbers.

Also, I thought the point of the exercise was 200kdt hulls? The smaller hulls pretty much always did get reamed. The idea, or so I though, was to test foe larger hulls.

Vlad - yes, the weapons are disparate; but they're what can be done in 36KT.

As to the point of the exercise ... I figure that if the rules give "realistic" (whatever that means) outcomes at the mid-range, for cruisers, then they're more likely to work both upwards (to BBs) and downwards (to DDs).

I want some fixes that will give satisfactory results across the full spectrum.

I've just fought a third conflict with a fresh variety, and I think we're beginning to get there.
 
Try a quick redesign - take the P PAWS out and replace it with an N meson.

So you will have very similar ships, one with an N meson and the other with a P PA.

It's a closer fight now that the meson penetrates on a 7 instead of a 9.
 
Third combat report.

"Fixes" tried this time were:

1. Armour is only rated at HALF its rating (fractions rounded up) against Spinals (and of course, ignored by mesons, whether spinal or not). Thus, the number of damage rolls a spinal Particle Accelerator gets is only reduced by half the armour factor; and the DM on the damage tables for a spinal PA is only half the damage factor. (This concept can be used to develop the idea of e.g. Spinal Lasers if anyone is interested in that ...)

2. The number of criticals caused by outsized weapons (other than mesons) is still reduced by 1 for every 2 factors of armour; but it can never be reduced below 1. If the weapon factor exceeds the ship size, then it WILL get at least one critical hit, no matter what.

3. Meson screens as "meson armour", acting in the same way as armour therefore reducing the number of damage rolls of spinals by half factor, and acting as a damage table DM (but at half factor for spinals).


Based on the previous play test, these adjustments felt "about right" to me; and I figured that their overall effect should mean that the big meason guns are still the weapons of choice at the top end; but that Particle Accelerators would probably have the edge for cruisers - certainly at the 36KT size I've been playing with. More importantly, though, these adjustments should ENSURE that the Spinals (whatever their type) are more significant to the battle outcome to the secondaries.

And so my squadrons squared up against one another once again. I was still expecting to see the Cruisers (P) prevail over the Cruisers (M) - but hopefully not so decisively, and certainly not in such a long and tedious engagement as the first one.

Battle report follows in next post.
 
The ships ARE pretty disparate MeJ (small) vs PaP (large) also, widely divergent Missile Bay numbers.

Also, I thought the point of the exercise was 200kdt hulls? The smaller hulls pretty much always did get reamed. The idea, or so I though, was to test foe larger hulls.
Vlad - yes, the weapons are disparate; but they're what can be done in 36KT.

As to the point of the exercise ... I figure that if the rules give "realistic" (whatever that means) outcomes at the mid-range, for cruisers, then they're more likely to work both upwards (to BBs) and downwards (to DDs).

I want some fixes that will give satisfactory results across the full spectrum.

I've just fought a third conflict with a fresh variety, and I think we're beginning to get there.

The lacking of missile bays on the Cruisers(M) fleet can be potentially decisive in HG2 RAW.

The meson bay is nearly useless against ships with heavy meson screen, so it should be forfeited for more missiles (both, from the bay itself and from the PP reduction allowed)

The first battle: using classic HG rules.

This can be widely discussed, but IMHO the Cruiser(P) strategy is wrong:

  1. They should split their PA fire among the various cruisers, as a single weapon hit on each one greatly reduces the MG ability to overcome the screens, so (again IMHO) it's more useful a single hit on each tan 3 hits on one of them (at least on initial stages, until all the spinals are damaged enough).
  2. Having inferiority in missiles, there's no point to keep at long range when the Cruisers(P) gains initiative, as the effectiveness of the spinals is not affected, but missiles are less effective at short range.

See that point 1 would have made more effective the hits achieved, as they would have degraded more spinals instead of destroying missile bays (also quite useful) or other weaponry (useless hits).

Point 2 would probably have avoided some missile hits, and kept the own weaponry more effective.

Also see that more damage was achieved by the Cruiser(M) fleet due to missiles tan to the MG.
 
FIRST TURN

Initiative: Cruisers (P). Long range. All ships in line. None of the meson guns scored any hits. Whisky was struck by 6 nuclear missiles and suffered the loss of 148 tons of fuel and 2 weapon hits. All of the Cruisers (M) were hit by P factor particle accelerators, however.

Africa lost 738 tons of fuel, suffered 6 weapon hits, and had its jump drive disabled.

Brazil lost 590 tons of fuel, suffered an M-drive hit and 7 weapon hits (including a heavy radiation hit to the meson gun, leaving it down at Factor D) and its fire control was knocked out

China lost 1181 tons of fuel and suffered 8 weapon hits. Its nuclear damper was disabled.

Delhi lost 295 tons of fuel, suffered 2 M-drive hits, 9 weapon hits (its Meson gun being reduced to factor-D) and its nuclear damper was disabled.


SECOND TURN.

Initiative: Cruisers (P). Long range.

X-Ray was hit by a Factor H meson gun from Africa and suffered Computer-1, Jump-1, Power-1 and Screens-1 (meson screen) damage. It also suffered 3 beefy weapons hits on the radiation damage table.

Yankee was hit by 5 nuclear missiles and suffered loss of 148 tons of fuel and a weapon hit.

Africa was hit by a Factor P Particle Accelerator. It lost 148 tons of fuel, suffered 2 hits to the M-drive and 8 weapons hits (bringing its meson gun down to factor-B) and its power plant was disabled.

Delhi was hit by a factor-N particle accelerator. It lost 443 tons of fuel and suffered 8 weapons hits (reducing its Meson gun to factor B). Its Jump Drive was disabled.


THIRD TURN

The Cruisers (M) put the crippled Africa in reserve. The Cruisers (P) put the damaged X-ray in reserve to attempt repairs to its computer and other systems.

Initiative: Cruisers (P). Long range.

The Whisky suffered 3 nuclear missile strikes. It suffered 1 weapon hit which it took on its lasers.

The Yankee was hit by a factor-F meson gun, and suffered Computer -1 and Jump -1

The Brazil was hit by a factor N particle accelerator and lost 433 tons of fuel. It suffered 9 weapon hits and its Jump Drive was disabled.

The China was hit by a factor-P particle accelerator and lost 590 tons of fuel. It suffered 1 M-drive hit and 7 weapon hits, and its Meson screen was disabled.

The X-ray attempted repairs. It failed to repair its computer; but it succeeded in repairing its power plant, particle accelerator and missiles.


This action was beginning to look more as I figured a combat between these squadrons ought!

More to follow.
 
The meson J is under gunned - it should be an N to have parity with the P PAWs.

I agree.

For now, I'm trying to satisfy myself for the rule fixes needed to get the Particle Accelerators right.

Then we can look at the Meson guns, by re-fighting these actions with up-gunned Cruisers (M)

I reckon we're pretty much there with the PAs now.

It's progress ...
 
The meson J is under gunned - it should be an N to have parity with the P PAWs.

I disagree. (I hope I understand this all correctly:confused:)

(The following uses the RAW)

The Meson J hits on 4+. DMs are -5 at Long Range and -3 at Short Range. Effectively they have to roll 9+ at Long Range and 7+ at Short Range. Penetration is 9+ for Screens and 6+ for Configuration. If it hits and penetrates it has a DM of 0 on both the Radiation and Interior Explosion Tables. Additionally, because it is a Spinal, it gets 9 Extra rolls on each table for each hit (see HG2 p.41).

The Particle P hits on 1+. DMs are -5 at Long and Short Range meaning they effectively have to roll 6+ to hit. No penetration rolls are required. The roll on the Surface and Radiation Damage Tables with a +15 DM means only rolls of 2-6 score any damage. Because they are a Spinal, they get 1 extra die roll on each damage table (they should get 0, but the rule states they always get 1).

Net result is at Long Range the Meson J has about a 5% chance to hit and penetrate and about 16% chance at Short Range. The Particle P has around a 72% chance to hit. The real difference is in the damage; if a Meson hits the result is literally 20 unmodified damage rolls - assured destruction. The Particle P on the other hand will only get 2 damage rolls on each table with a 72% chance they each result in no damage (and any damage they could inflict will be minimal).
 
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