Communication Protocol

[Supplement Four]

Here's a nifty Traveller-type thingy I've been pondering. Pop this in your grey matter 'puter and tell me what you think...

Communication range: Even with a high powered signal, comm range is limited to the speed of light. Signal degrads over distance.

In order to promote better communcations in a system with a lot of traffic, maybe there are communication protocols in place--

What would happen would be: if your ship picks up an incoming signal, then you are obliged to repeat that signal, sending it on towards its destination.

This way, every ship in a civilized star system will act as a comm "repeater" for every other ship, thereby extending range. Communications will have much longer range because signal degredation won't be as much a factor.

Of course, this will only work with broadcast comms. Tight beam probably won't intercept with another ship.

Military vessels are probably exempt from this protocol. Scout vessels probably carry elaborate repeater units on their ships to help out.

Only civilized systems would be subject to this protocol. Can't have pirates using this to target prey.

On the other hand, if a Nav operator discovers a ship that should[/b] be relaying messages and isn't, then that ship is suspect, provided it's not a military vessel.

Thoughts?

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's a nifty Traveller-type thingy I've been pondering. Pop this in your grey matter 'puter and tell me what you think...

Communication range: Even with a high powered signal, comm range is limited to the speed of light. Signal degrads over distance.

In order to promote better communcations in a system with a lot of traffic, maybe there are communication protocols in place--

What would happen would be: if your ship picks up an incoming signal, then you are obliged to repeat that signal, sending it on towards its destination.

This way, every ship in a civilized star system will act as a comm "repeater" for every other ship, thereby extending range. Communications will have much longer range because signal degredation won't be as much a factor.

Of course, this will only work with broadcast comms. Tight beam probably won't intercept with another ship.

Military vessels are probably exempt from this protocol. Scout vessels probably carry elaborate repeater units on their ships to help out.

Only civilized systems would be subject to this protocol. Can't have pirates using this to target prey.

On the other hand, if a Nav operator discovers a ship that should[/b] be relaying messages and isn't, then that ship is suspect, provided it's not a military vessel.

Thoughts?

 

[The Shaman]

Something like the party game "Telephone," but at interplanetary scales?

IMTU most developed systems have automated repeaters on the common communications wavelengths, but I could see what you're proposing as an adjunct to the same Imperial law that underlies Signal GK response - perhaps not routine transmissions, but certainly anything of suspect origin. It could also be a specific system's requirement, such as a mid-tech system with several settled planets, or as traditional courtesy among belters.

 

[The Shaman]

Something like the party game "Telephone," but at interplanetary scales?

IMTU most developed systems have automated repeaters on the common communications wavelengths, but I could see what you're proposing as an adjunct to the same Imperial law that underlies Signal GK response - perhaps not routine transmissions, but certainly anything of suspect origin. It could also be a specific system's requirement, such as a mid-tech system with several settled planets, or as traditional courtesy among belters.

 

[Valarian]

I seem to remember something about the Atlantic steamers of the late 19th / early 20th century doing something like this. Anyone got a reference?

 

[Valarian]

I seem to remember something about the Atlantic steamers of the late 19th / early 20th century doing something like this. Anyone got a reference?

 

[Renard Ruche]

I would have to do some digging to get some exact information, but you are correct, Valarian - atlantic steamers of the early 20th century used to pass on Marconi messages. Not sure how long the period lasted, but definately through WWI.

The most striking example I can think of off the top of my head is the Titanic disaster. The Titanic herself passed along ice warnings from other ships (and appeared to ignore a couple, which leads to what happens if you have a lax commo officer or just leave the system on automatic - maybe program the computer with key words?). Also, other ship's later passed on Titanic's CQD/SOS to other ships and shore stations.

From what I remember, the wireless operators were not actual steamship employees, but worked for the Marconi Company. I don't know what exact policies were in place, but ship's would routinely also pass along passenger messages (again, have to dig it out, but I seem to recall a passage referring to this in A Night to Remember, which does deal a bit with how messages were handled by the operators and the crew.).

So, it seems that starships could set up an automatic relay on the commo system to pass messages along. I assume most would have some kind of encryption. The system should of course be set to detect key words/messages (I would assume ads and such would also be broadcast out).

 

[Renard Ruche]

I would have to do some digging to get some exact information, but you are correct, Valarian - atlantic steamers of the early 20th century used to pass on Marconi messages. Not sure how long the period lasted, but definately through WWI.

The most striking example I can think of off the top of my head is the Titanic disaster. The Titanic herself passed along ice warnings from other ships (and appeared to ignore a couple, which leads to what happens if you have a lax commo officer or just leave the system on automatic - maybe program the computer with key words?). Also, other ship's later passed on Titanic's CQD/SOS to other ships and shore stations.

From what I remember, the wireless operators were not actual steamship employees, but worked for the Marconi Company. I don't know what exact policies were in place, but ship's would routinely also pass along passenger messages (again, have to dig it out, but I seem to recall a passage referring to this in A Night to Remember, which does deal a bit with how messages were handled by the operators and the crew.).

So, it seems that starships could set up an automatic relay on the commo system to pass messages along. I assume most would have some kind of encryption. The system should of course be set to detect key words/messages (I would assume ads and such would also be broadcast out).

 

[Valarian]

That's where it was - Titanic. I've got A Night to Remember and The Night Lives On books by Walter Lord. It was in these I read about this.

Walter Lord - The Night Lives On
A few yards aft along the Boat Deck, First Wireless Operator Phillips dug into a stack of outgoing messages. His set had a range of only 400 miles during daylight, and the American traffic had piled up. Now at last he was in touch with Cape Race and was working off the backlog. Some were passenger messages for New York - arrival times, requests for hotel reservations, instructions to business associates. Others were being relayed for ships no longer in direct touch with the land.

At 11 p.m. the steamer Californian suddenly broke in: "I say, old man, we're stopped and surrounded by ice." She was so close that her signal almost blasted Phillips's ears off.

"Shut up, shut up," he shot back, "I'm busy. I'm working Cape Race." The he went back to the outgoing pile - messages like this one relayed to a Los Angeles address from a passenger on the Amerika:

NO SEASICKNESS. ALL WELL.
NOTIFY ALL INTESTESTED. POKER
BUSINESS GOOD. AL.

 

[Valarian]

That's where it was - Titanic. I've got A Night to Remember and The Night Lives On books by Walter Lord. It was in these I read about this.

Walter Lord - The Night Lives On
A few yards aft along the Boat Deck, First Wireless Operator Phillips dug into a stack of outgoing messages. His set had a range of only 400 miles during daylight, and the American traffic had piled up. Now at last he was in touch with Cape Race and was working off the backlog. Some were passenger messages for New York - arrival times, requests for hotel reservations, instructions to business associates. Others were being relayed for ships no longer in direct touch with the land.

At 11 p.m. the steamer Californian suddenly broke in: "I say, old man, we're stopped and surrounded by ice." She was so close that her signal almost blasted Phillips's ears off.

"Shut up, shut up," he shot back, "I'm busy. I'm working Cape Race." The he went back to the outgoing pile - messages like this one relayed to a Los Angeles address from a passenger on the Amerika:

NO SEASICKNESS. ALL WELL.
NOTIFY ALL INTESTESTED. POKER
BUSINESS GOOD. AL.

 

[Supplement Four]

Hmmm...

Never knew about the historical precedent. It just seemed to make sense. I mean, the practical range on Traveller comms can't be that far, in terms of a star system.

Comm repeaters just seem more than practical. They seem a requirement.

I think this is an area of reality that is ignored and handwaved in Traveller.

The fact that there is historical precedent, combined with Traveller communication being likened to 18th century steam ship travel due to the jump drive, just seems to be poetically made for each other.

 

[Supplement Four]

Hmmm...

Never knew about the historical precedent. It just seemed to make sense. I mean, the practical range on Traveller comms can't be that far, in terms of a star system.

Comm repeaters just seem more than practical. They seem a requirement.

I think this is an area of reality that is ignored and handwaved in Traveller.

The fact that there is historical precedent, combined with Traveller communication being likened to 18th century steam ship travel due to the jump drive, just seems to be poetically made for each other.

 

[Supplement Four]

Think of the implications, too.

Because every ship will be required to act as a comm repeater, there is no "hiding" in a modern solar system.

Every ship should automatically know where the other ship is.

Combined with the ship's transponder, like blinking port/starboard lights on a sailing vessel, spouting off every second or so...no wonder sensors have never really been an issue in Classic Traveller.

Nothing other than a basic sensor package is needed if you are a merchant and you always travel to populated systems, because all other bogies are broadcasting their location via transponder pings and comm relays.

If, by chance, you are in a populated system, and you discover a vessel that isn't transmitting a transponder signal, and isn't available for comm relay, then there's something there to catch your attention.

You better hope to God it's a military vessel.

 

[Supplement Four]

Think of the implications, too.

Because every ship will be required to act as a comm repeater, there is no "hiding" in a modern solar system.

Every ship should automatically know where the other ship is.

Combined with the ship's transponder, like blinking port/starboard lights on a sailing vessel, spouting off every second or so...no wonder sensors have never really been an issue in Classic Traveller.

Nothing other than a basic sensor package is needed if you are a merchant and you always travel to populated systems, because all other bogies are broadcasting their location via transponder pings and comm relays.

If, by chance, you are in a populated system, and you discover a vessel that isn't transmitting a transponder signal, and isn't available for comm relay, then there's something there to catch your attention.

You better hope to God it's a military vessel.

 

[Supplement Four]

In a space combat situation, all the "pieces" will automatically be on the board...just like in Book 2 space combat.

It's the unpopluated systems (and maybe the unpopulated, less trafficed, regions of the star system) where you'll have to use your sensors to detect ships.

But, even out there, if the other ship is on the up-n-up, then it will be broadcasting with a transponder signal.

I imagine Imperial Law doesn't require a ship to broadcast with its transponder if it thinks it's in danger or could be in danger.

What I mean is: It's probably required to do so in the populated approaches to most star systems. If you're in a non-populated region of space, you probably should, but are not required, to transmit with your transponder.

I imagine if a customs vessel detects you with no transponder signal, though, it's probably sure grounds for boarding.

Interesting...for the GM who wants to keep things lively.

 

[Supplement Four]

In a space combat situation, all the "pieces" will automatically be on the board...just like in Book 2 space combat.

It's the unpopluated systems (and maybe the unpopulated, less trafficed, regions of the star system) where you'll have to use your sensors to detect ships.

But, even out there, if the other ship is on the up-n-up, then it will be broadcasting with a transponder signal.

I imagine Imperial Law doesn't require a ship to broadcast with its transponder if it thinks it's in danger or could be in danger.

What I mean is: It's probably required to do so in the populated approaches to most star systems. If you're in a non-populated region of space, you probably should, but are not required, to transmit with your transponder.

I imagine if a customs vessel detects you with no transponder signal, though, it's probably sure grounds for boarding.

Interesting...for the GM who wants to keep things lively.

 

[far-trader]

Ah, I typed too slowly, S4 has gone and posted more while I was replying

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Here's a nifty Traveller-type thingy I've been pondering. Pop this in your grey matter 'puter and tell me what you think...

Communication range: Even with a high powered signal, comm range is limited to the speed of light. Signal degrads over distance.

In order to promote better communcations in a system with a lot of traffic, maybe there are communication protocols in place--

What would happen would be: if your ship picks up an incoming signal, then you are obliged to repeat that signal, sending it on towards its destination.

This way, every ship in a civilized star system will act as a comm "repeater" for every other ship, thereby extending range. Communications will have much longer range because signal degredation won't be as much a factor.

Of course, this will only work with broadcast comms. Tight beam probably won't intercept with another ship.

I don't think this will be. It just won't work.

First repeaters won't be needed at typical star system distances and situations. And that would be the way it would get done if it were needed for some reason. A dedicated repeater station in a specific place for specific communication links. And it would probably be tight beam comms since you know where each point in the chain is at any time.

Second if every ship in system is obliged to repeat every signal they pick up in an effort to give it more range all you end up doing is flooding the communication freqs with more signal noise making all signals harder to process.

The reason it was done in the early days of radio was not because of a lack of range but because the horizon and atmosphere affected that range. Neither of those is a concern in space.

Radio works great for line of sight range, the higher you can get your antenna the longer your clear range. To communicate beyond the horizon with radio requires skipping the signal off the ionosphere (iirc) and surface. Such skip signals are not reliable however. They change where they can be received depending on where they are transmitted from (if moving as in the case of ocean traffic) and the current atmospherics. I also seem to recall they behave better North-South than East-West because of the Earth's magnetic field. For those reasons transoceanic ships of old would often pass messages. Now of course we have satellite communications to get around those problems.

So, neat idea, but it just won't happen. Keep thinking outside the box though, it often leads to good ideas.

 

[far-trader]

Ah, I typed too slowly, S4 has gone and posted more while I was replying

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Here's a nifty Traveller-type thingy I've been pondering. Pop this in your grey matter 'puter and tell me what you think...

Communication range: Even with a high powered signal, comm range is limited to the speed of light. Signal degrads over distance.

In order to promote better communcations in a system with a lot of traffic, maybe there are communication protocols in place--

What would happen would be: if your ship picks up an incoming signal, then you are obliged to repeat that signal, sending it on towards its destination.

This way, every ship in a civilized star system will act as a comm "repeater" for every other ship, thereby extending range. Communications will have much longer range because signal degredation won't be as much a factor.

Of course, this will only work with broadcast comms. Tight beam probably won't intercept with another ship.

I don't think this will be. It just won't work.

First repeaters won't be needed at typical star system distances and situations. And that would be the way it would get done if it were needed for some reason. A dedicated repeater station in a specific place for specific communication links. And it would probably be tight beam comms since you know where each point in the chain is at any time.

Second if every ship in system is obliged to repeat every signal they pick up in an effort to give it more range all you end up doing is flooding the communication freqs with more signal noise making all signals harder to process.

The reason it was done in the early days of radio was not because of a lack of range but because the horizon and atmosphere affected that range. Neither of those is a concern in space.

Radio works great for line of sight range, the higher you can get your antenna the longer your clear range. To communicate beyond the horizon with radio requires skipping the signal off the ionosphere (iirc) and surface. Such skip signals are not reliable however. They change where they can be received depending on where they are transmitted from (if moving as in the case of ocean traffic) and the current atmospherics. I also seem to recall they behave better North-South than East-West because of the Earth's magnetic field. For those reasons transoceanic ships of old would often pass messages. Now of course we have satellite communications to get around those problems.

So, neat idea, but it just won't happen. Keep thinking outside the box though, it often leads to good ideas.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Hmmm...

Never knew about the historical precedent. It just seemed to make sense. I mean, the practical range on Traveller comms can't be that far, in terms of a star system.

Well, in reality even the lowest Traveller ship comm is going to be far stronger both in transmission and reception capability than anything we've used in the space program to date and there is no problem communicating across the whole solar system with what we have used. Of course that's largely due to the large receiving antenna. In Traveller smaller receiving antenna will be made up for by stronger (by several magnitude) transmission power.

So, no, in practical terms Traveller comms will normally have no problem communicating clearly across a solar system.

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Comm repeaters just seem more than practical. They seem a requirement.

Nope, they'd just add to the noise and make communications more difficult in a busy system. If anything there would be rules in place restricting busy systems to vital communications only or requiring all ships to maintain radio silence except for emergency, answering official transmissions, or operating at low power or tight beam for ship to boat and ship to shore communications.

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
The fact that there is historical precedent, combined with Traveller communication being likened to 18th century steam ship travel due to the jump drive, just seems to be poetically made for each other.

Except that the historical precedent is a totally different problem. And just beacuse is never enough reason

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Think of the implications, too.

Because every ship will be required to act as a comm repeater, there is no "hiding" in a modern solar system.

There is really no hiding anyway in reality when your ship is glowing in the infrared as bright as a flare star in the cold black of space

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Every ship should automatically know where the other ship is.

So every ship will automatically know where the other ship is, by simple passive scans.

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Combined with the ship's transponder, like blinking port/starboard lights on a sailing vessel, spouting off every second or so...no wonder sensors have never really been an issue in Classic Traveller.

Nothing other than a basic sensor package is needed if you are a merchant and you always travel to populated systems, because all other bogies are broadcasting their location via transponder pings and comm relays.

Precisely, and those transponders are... radio data. If they work without repeaters so will voice.