Confused... T20 starship combat

[Dom]

Having read through the T20 rules (albeit qucikly), is it me or is how starship armour and screens work quite confusing?

Reading p268 it seems that you can have armour or screens, whereas AFAIK from HG you actually really stack armour.

eg

wpn (defended by)

lasers (sand, armour)
energy weapons (sand, armour)
particle accelerators (armour)
meson guns (meson screens)
missiles std (Point defense laser and energy, sand, armour)
missiles nuke (Point defense laser and energy, sand, nuke dampers, armour)
missiles BPL (Point defense laser and energy, sand, armour)

Anyone got a minute to explain how T20 works to a confused HG trained person!

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Dom:
Having read through the T20 rules (albeit qucikly), is it me or is how starship armour and screens work quite confusing?

Reading p268 it seems that you can have armour or screens, whereas AFAIK from HG you actually really stack armour.

eg

wpn (defended by)

lasers (sand, armour)
energy weapons (sand, armour)
particle accelerators (armour)
meson guns (meson screens)
missiles std (Point defense laser and energy, sand, armour)
missiles nuke (Point defense laser and energy, sand, nuke dampers, armour)
missiles BPL (Point defense laser and energy, sand, armour)

Anyone got a minute to explain how T20 works to a confused HG trained person!

Dom, realize that I don't have my copy handy, but...

But, in T20, defenses (except meson screens) stack. All function AS ARMOR.

Damage is (USP or 16) dice. (Spinals do 16. non-spinals do USP).

Armor is resolved a point at a time, effectively...up to attacing USP-1 is just pull lowest die for each av. After that, reduce highest die by 1 point each av point.

So, a factor 6 particle beam attack against an armored vessel does reduced damage. Lets assume rolls of 12,10,8,6,4,2. Against the following AV's the damage is read thusly
AV0 42 pts (12+10+8+6+4+2)
AV1 40 pts (12+10+8+6+4+0_ as the av cancels the lowest die.
AV2 36 pts (12+10+8+6+0+0) as the two av cancel the two lowest dice.
AV3 30 pts (12+10+8+0+0+0).
AV4 22 pts (12+10+0+0+0+0)
AV5 12 Pts (12+0+0+0+0+0)
AV6 11 pts ((12-1)+0+0+0+0+0) extra AV reduces 1 point each)
AV7 10 pts ((12-2)+0+0+0+0+0)
Av8 9 pts ((12-3)+0+0+0+0+0)
so to toally cancel that PA, that roll, would be AV5 (extra dice) + AV12 (Killing off the highest die), or an AV 17.

For Meson guns, just use the meson screen as armor.

For lasers, count Sand + Armor, if sand is in place.

For missiles, the defending lasers need a task roll to have effect, but if they do, they count as additional armor.

Since T20 armor tends to leak... and any penetrating hit does critical damage, it can be ugly....

In short, In T20, larger ships lose all ther systems, but won't be destroyed. Smaller ships will go down fighting.

Fighters, since they can be grouped into batteries on the fly, can be optimized to generate MAXIMUM critical potential by setting USP to AV+1, GUARANTEEING a critical hit, and penetration. Strip the systems off.... PA Barbette/turret fighters can be NASTY!

(You can put 1 per 30 tons of fighter and still have effective fighters!)

I'll admit, in playtest, I didn't test out the BIG ships (10KTd+), and the final version of starhips is slightly different than playtest.

 

[RainOfSteel]

FYI. There is a fairly interesting dicussion of the combat rules in regards to larger ships here:

Topic: T20 Drednaughts? What is the point?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Aramis:

Dom, realize that I don't have my copy handy, but...

But, in T20, defenses (except meson screens) stack. All function AS ARMOR.

Damage is (USP or 16) dice. (Spinals do 16. non-spinals do USP).

For missiles, the defending lasers need a task roll to have effect, but if they do, they count as additional armor.

Since T20 armor tends to leak... and any penetrating hit does critical damage, it can be ugly....

In short, In T20, larger ships lose all ther systems, but won't be destroyed. Smaller ships will go down fighting.

Fighters, since they can be grouped into batteries on the fly, can be optimized to generate MAXIMUM critical potential by setting USP to AV+1, GUARANTEEING a critical hit, and penetration. Strip the systems off.... PA Barbette/turret fighters can be NASTY!

(You can put 1 per 30 tons of fighter and still have effective fighters!)

I'll admit, in playtest, I didn't test out the BIG ships (10KTd+), and the final version of starhips is slightly different than playtest. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Actually in my copy of T20 if the Point defense Lasers hit the missile attack is defeated.

In a 30T fighter? Interesting. I keep thinking fighters in the 15 or 50T range. (Since that is what all the Canon ships carry.) I would love to see that.

 

[Dom]

Originally posted by Aramis:

Fighters, since they can be grouped into batteries on the fly, can be optimized to generate MAXIMUM critical potential by setting USP to AV+1, GUARANTEEING a critical hit, and penetration. Strip the systems off.... PA Barbette/turret fighters can be NASTY!

(You can put 1 per 30 tons of fighter and still have effective fighters!)

Thanks for this - it clarifies it a lot!

In PP, all fighters are grouped as squadrons (generating a squadron USP for the weapon system). IIRC you can get a nasty PA armed fighter around 15T that can sit behind sand clouds and snip (PP has drifting sand clouds like Bk 2). But PAs are the underated weapon.

 

[cmdrx]

Here's my version of the 30dt PAW fighter for T20:
http://www.geocities.com/cmdrx/xtek/ships/t20/fg1110.htm

If that's not enough, try the Meson fighter! Bigger(75dt) but still agile and very powerful:
http://www.geocities.com/cmdrx/xtek/ships/t20/fn1120.htm

Share and Enjoy.

 

[aramis]

Just for reference, everyone, I DON'T have (yet) the T20 release edition.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Looking at Squadrons of fighters. Against the relatively unarmored ships of TA7 don't group your fighters. Against the Perisher, if you send 267 fighters armed with HE missiles you will probably down it if you don't group your fighters. (As long as it keeps maneuvering.) If you use Laser Heads you will definitely down it in one salvo.

So here comes the questions.
1. It says Sand adds to the defensive number of the ship it doesn't say AF. Does it act like Armor or does it just make it harder to score a hit? (Kind of the whole Cover VS Concealment comparison.)

2. What ships get to use point defense Lasers against incoming fire?
a. Just the ship targeted?
b. Any ships in the same Strategic hex?
c. Any ships semi close?

Given the title of Escort and the concept of Escort, On the Strategic scale I would say anything in the same hex. On the tactical scale I would say any ship within two hexes of the flight path of the missiles. (In other words between the Firing ship and the target.) This being for point defense fire not point defense Sand. (Which I would say, given the nature of sand would have to be the target only.)

Normal Squardon formations would normally put Escort ships on the flanks to engage incoming missiles, then within the Major components of the TF or Squadron, interlock their defensive fire.

3. Since Fighters just became very effective against unarmored-lightly armored, even Capital ships I find it funny that one of the hardest targets for a fighter to kill is a FH.

Tough Targets forfighters is any 10+ AF Armored ship with a Nuclear Damper Larger Nuclear damper. (USP 6+) Even the PA armed fighters have a very hard time with a AF 14 or 15. Missiles will be virtually useless as well, unless you have a whole lot of fighters. (Strategic scale only, Laser heads only and 50-100 squadrons more than he has Point Defense Lasers and Repulsars. (500-1000 extra FH.) If a BB has 30 Laser Batteries and 10 Repulsar bays then you would need 450-500 Squadrons, 4500-5000 fighters. (YIKES!)

Back to the original Useful fighter discussion, if the target is Armored, especially in the 12+ range fighters aren't very useful. (As far as I am concerned an AF of 1 isn't armored.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
So here comes the questions.
1. It says Sand adds to the defensive number of the ship it doesn't say AF. Does it act like Armor or does it just make it harder to score a hit? (Kind of the whole Cover VS Concealment comparison.)

2. What ships get to use point defense Lasers against incoming fire?
a. Just the ship targeted?
b. Any ships in the same Strategic hex?
c. Any ships semi close?

3. Since Fighters just became very effective against unarmored-lightly armored, even Capital ships I find it funny that one of the hardest targets for a fighter to kill is a FH.

Well, the sand should be AC and AR vs lasers, probably just AC vs missiles...

I alawys playtested meson screens as armor.

Nuke dampers likewise.

Black globes, I %aged the SI rolled....

Lasers vs missiles, in one playtest draft, it was " totall Defending laser factors/attacing missile battery factor is AV bonus", but I remember someone complaining that a 10000 ton ship could be made immune to laser fire... 900 triple laser turrets could strip away incoming missiles.

Hm... sounds like maybe we SHOULD write a "HG for T20" simplification, streamlining, and revision... <Grin, wink at Hunter>

Seriously, though, for a USP 9 missile bay, it takes an AV of 8+6=14 to guarantee no damage to SI.

An Idea: If attacking laser battery is same or greater than USP of Missile, apply (on hit) LUSP/MUSP reduction in MUSP. Additional batteries are combined for anti-missile fire, at double number= +1
2-3 Batts = +1 LUSP
4-7 Batteries = +2 LUSP
8-15 batteries = +3 LUSP
etc...
Or maybe each additional battery of same USP hitting drops 1 additional factor of missile.

In any case, missile defense should be limited to battery shoots at ONE missile salvo per turn. Represents the idea that point defense is NOT "Shoot them close", but "Saturate their flight path with energy".

I honestly don't think we really playtested the bigger ships; they slipped through the gaps. We TALKED about them, Dr Skull did more on that end than I.

The T20 Armor scheme does make armor somewhat useless at low levels...

Here's the "No SI Guarantee": if total armor factor (counting any frm screens) = (number of dmage dice -1)+(sides of single damage die)

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
Aramis - I always assumed that point defence lasers and/or missiles could only shoot at one target each turn but i suppose there are people out there who would try to get them to shoot at all incoming missiles in a turn (it dosn't say you cant cook toast in the video).
If your going to battery fire your lasers in point defence you would need a different program for the lasers and if you had different battery numbers ie usp factors for different missile usp factors so you can still fire spare lasers at the enemy you are going to need BIG computers so you dont need to delete one program before loading the next (you realy want all of them running at the same time and you select the active one as you need it).
Bye.