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Great, 50 men and 50 women, carefully selected, pair bonded in advance, and contracted to produce 3 children within 10 years. And it will all work like clockwork. Right. Care to guess what the current divorce rate after only 7 years is? Care to guess what the psycological pressures of being 1 of only 100 people on Mars will be like?
There will be alot of competition for these 100 mission slots. Their family histories will be examined carefully. Divorce simply won't be an option as there are no other mates available, no singles bars and no singles. If anyone rapes, then the cameras will catch it and out the airlock he goes, either that or send him back to Earth.

(snip of further "assembly line" style procreation efforts and blue-sky societal assumptions; all colonists are heterosexual, no murders or accients, everyone happy with their limited choice of mates, etc.)
Why would you want murderers on Mars? There is no jail space, anyone caught murdering will likely be sent out the airlock, there is no other choice, the personel can't be spared for guard duty, people returning to Earth won't want a murderer with them. 1 homosexual with 99 heterosexuals is just plain out of luck, he should have realized this before signing on for this mission and lying about his sexual orientation on his application. The second generation is another matter, he'll probably be returning to Earth due to lack of suitable partners on the colony, or he'll take a vow of celibacy while contributing his sperm to the sperm bank. Again rape won't be tollerated in such a small community, and anyone thinking about it will know the penalty.


Wow. Nearly 800 people in 90 years not counting the almost totally unused 10,000 frozen embryos or any further immigration. And of course everyone on Mars fits the colony's master procreational blueprint perfectly, happily goosestepping along producing 3 children within 10 years in each marriage, never divorcing, and always happy with their limited choice of mates.
Do you have a problem with happy marrages? Just because one doesn't fool around and commit adultery, doesn't mean that person is a facist. I wouldn't wish divorce on anybody. Or we could just send a single multi-polygamous family to Mars where everyone is married to everyone. I don't see why it is necessary to adopt such alien customs just because one is going to another planet. The old traditions of family and fidelity work the best in frontier societies. There is no crowds to hide oneself and become anonomous, no singles bars, everyone has already met everyone and there are no new people to meet. Once one establishes ones reputation as a perfiduous, adulterous philanderer, there's no getting away from it, everyone knows you, and once trust is broken it is never regained. Any Bill Clintons on Mars might as well head back to Earth. Everyone is an individual on the first colony, only when there are larger populations do people stereotype.
 
Mr. Kalbfus,

Please read my post of 10:22PM, April 22nd, 2003 which is a just few posts above this one.

In it, I apologize for the snide nature of my critique of your colony proposals. The tone of my remarks was completely uncalled for.

While I think your colonial growth proposal is a bit too optimistic in many of it's assumptions, it still contains some interesting ideas. Thank you for sharing them with us.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
That's okay, we all say things we regret later, myself included. I just thought the previous post contained some interesting points I had to comment on. I think 700 people on Mars in the next 90 years is actually pessimistic. You know we could have had a base on Mars by now. From 1957 to 1964 there was a project called Orion, I read a book on it recently, the idea was to explode small atomic bombs underneath a spaceship, a plate intercepts each explosion at a certain distance and a giant shock absorber smooths out the acceleration caused by each explosion, so the astronauts could survive it. 600 atomic bomb explosions would have sent the Orion into orbit and it would have had enough atomic bombs left for a round trip to Saturn and back. There was just two little details that stopped the program dead, first there was the ban on atmospheric testing of atomic bombs, and second was the public's fear of radioactive contamination. Statistically there was enough radiation released with each launch to cause the death of one person from cancer.
It takes a lot of energy to launch something into orbit and atomic bombs have that energy. The main problem is that the atomic fission fueling each explosion leaves long lasting radioactive isotopes. If we weren't so environmentally sensitive, we could have large bases or even town on Mars today, and if people would smoke less, that would make up for the cancer deaths caused by the radiation spread by each launch. One good alternative would be to use pure fusion bombs, nobody has yet succeeded in building any. All fusion bombs we have now are triggered by atomic fission and so leave radioactive isotopes. Also the fusion bombs we have today are too powerful, we need small fusion explosions to power a fusion Orion spaceship. One way to achieve them is through laser induced fusion explosions, lasers are very inefficient and waste alot of energy as heat, we need to improve laser efficicency so that energy recovered from each fusion explosion is enough to power the next laser pulse. Such a spaceship could then take off from the ground and reach orbit as Orion could have. Chemical rockets are very wasteful ond tempermental compared to fusion pulse spaceships. The explosions need not be so great as to level a city, a small enough fusion explosion would be enough to lift the spaceship without destroying everything around it. Any explosion will do, chemical explosions will lift the ship of course, but each bomb would weigh too much for the ship to carry enough of them to reach orbit. Another idea is to fire ground lasers at a certain spot underneath the ship, heating the air underneath to cause an explosion and lifting the ship in the same manner as an Orion. Ultimately a space elevator will be the most efficent means of reaching orbit, but that requires putting an enourmous mass in geosynchronious orbit and lowering a superstrong cable from it to the ground. We already know how to make short strands of the superstrong cable, we need to be able to produce tens of thousands of km of it and then we need to find some way to get all that cable to the proper orbit, An Orionlike spaceship fits the bill, it was only mere politics that prevented its use in the 1960s and 1970s. Politics can change overtime. I think at some point, if trends continue, the US is going to be fed up with international treaties, and opportunities will arise in that direction, that's why I'm optimistic. France is on a anti-US kick, its a cheap accomplishment they can show to their constituents to demonstrate their ability to stand up to a big power, it proves nothing except how gullible the French public really is and how ungrateful France is to everthing the US has done for the world over the past 50 years. If France succeeds in getting the rest of the World more or less to gang up on the US, the US will simply walk away from the UN and quit worrying about how the rest of the world feels about us. It will seem as if there is nothing it could do to get back in the World's good graces so it will stop trying. Their is alot of predjudice against Americans already, most notably in the Middle East, even from the people we've most recently freed and benefited, their tendency is to think the worst of us no matter what we do, it really isn't fair. So the question becomes, if the International community is being unfair to us, why should we let their international treaties stop us from conquering space. Great Nations are rarely loved in their own time.
 
I do think that China might be one of the first. fro a number of reasons. I am living in the PRC now so I do have a different view. they are very interested in the space program and developing their own now. it will be a matter of years but if they keep with the current enthusiasm they will eventually make it work. The USA had the enthusiasm to start but that has died down and now seems to be a distant pipe dream. Besides the population the Chinese have an excellent tech base to work from. the best Chinese products are for the home market. Those who have difficuty selling to the Chinese turn to the American markets. they will need to work out th erough edges first there are still problems to be solved but ther eis a genuine interest in doing it on a national level.
 
Here are some thought I had regarding your comments, which are being taken simply as examples of legitimate proplems with this colonization plan ;)


Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade & quoting Tom Kalbfus:
"You simply have a traditional nuclear family. One parent does most of the Mission Work while the other raises the children."


Okay, that might work. Sending half your population off to Mars just to be nannies for the first thirty years might make it hard to recruit bodies though. Can Mr. or Mrs. Mom do a little work outside of the home or shall we only recruit the heirs of June Cleaver and Carol Brady?
Issues of childcare would be very important in such a colony. With such a small population base (even accounting for immigration) it will be important that the children grow up to be well adjusted, well educated, productive adults.

As a result of this and the small population of workers in general, I would expect that schooling/group-childcare would actually start fairly early, possibly even while the children are babies. (Speaking out of personal experience, we had my son in a good daycare/preschool during the day starting at less than 6 mos.). This gathering of children into school groups would mean that (just like the real world) there is no reason that both parents cannot be involved in 'mission work' as long as childcare is the 'mission work' of some of the colonists.

Additionally, if group childcare was planned for origninally, having a couple of well trained, high quality pre-elementary teachers in your original colony roster would be easy. Many of the problems and concerns that people have with very young children who have to spend a great deal of time in daycare would be offset by high quality, involved caretakers and the involvement of the colony community as a whole. Future caretaker needs (as children grow older and need more specialized schooling) would, I would think, be best met by manipulating the priorities/incentives used to regulate future immigration.



"Initially the first 100 hundred will have their own children."

Great, 50 men and 50 women, carefully selected, pair bonded in advance, and contracted to produce 3 children within 10 years. And it will all work like clockwork. Right. Care to guess what the current divorce rate after only 7 years is? Care to guess what the psycological pressures of being 1 of only 100 people on Mars will be like?
The psychological pressures of living in a very small, very isolated colony would indeed be a very pressing concern. I would expect that given the rigid arrangements being used with this colony, that the selection process would include rigourous phychological screening which would help deal with the problem. Including a solid psychologist and plans for 'alone' space and other recreational space would also be important.

Two other factors that I would expect to play a role would be the psych makeup of the original colonists and the concept of community. As the select few who get the opportunity to found a new colony, the first generation is likely to be made up of people who are willing to work hard and make sacrifices to make the colony a success. I would expect this to extend to a great many things...a 'greater than normal' willingness to compromise and work out differences, the desire to work together to make the colony work, even the willingness to produce and care for children with a partner that you may or may not be emotionally or physically attached to (after all, the odds of finding fifty pairs with the exact set of skills needed is likely small).

Developing a strong, involved but flexible sense of community would also be of assistance with type of colony. With such a small colony, a community will exist one way or another as everyone will know each other at least peripheraly and everyone's work is likely to impact on everyone elses life to one extent or another. If a healthy sense of community can be built it would be a powerful force for encouraging the growth and survival of the colony. A strong community could help keep crime rates under control as the colony grows, it could also (especially when smaller) act as a support group if any of the pairs really have problems. And even once the colony has outgrown its early everybody knows each other and helps each other out mode of operation, I can think of worse social foundations for a growing society.


(snip of further "assembly line" style procreation efforts and blue-sky societal assumptions; all colonists are heterosexual, no murders or accients, everyone happy with their limited choice of mates, etc.)

<SNIP>

Wow. Nearly 800 people in 90 years not counting the almost totally unused 10,000 frozen embryos or any further immigration. And of course everyone on Mars fits the colony's master procreational blueprint perfectly, happily goosestepping along producing 3 children within 10 years in each marriage, never divorcing, and always happy with their limited choice of mates.

Larsen
Accidents and psych issues developing over time would be an issue with any colonial endeavor and I think you are absolutley right that a colony this size would be especially vulnerable to anything significant going wrong. With that few people all you may need to kill off everyone with a given life critical skillset is one illness or a landslide or a simple accident. That is one of the reasons that I think continued immegration and contact with a homeworld would be absolutely vital in a colony of this size. It is certainly possible they would make it, but without the influx of additional people to deal with unexpected losses and the need for an increasingly deep pool of skills as the colony grows I wouldn't count on them becoming a viable colony on their own.

If they truly have a very large pool of frozen embrios available to them, then I think you also have a point about the rate with which that resource is being used. Care would have to be taken not to overwhelm their childcare capacity, but introducing having each couple produce 4 children in ten years (three their own and one implanted) would grow the population much quicker while introducing a certain amount of new genetic diversity without relying on immigration.

Just my thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em.
 
The reasons for setting up a colony on another planet will encourage continued immagration for at least a century. The Most traffic will be one way, out, but some returnees should be accomadated on each trip. Returnees would be company execs and people to spread the good word of how great life is on the new world.
 
ya know, I'm starting to think it's not gonna be a 'country' that makes it up there, but a private corp that gets a base put up first. Like that new space plane funded privately that not only works, it works exceptionally well. A few more like these, and maybe Bill Gates'll set a billion or so into motion to get a moon colony up. Once they've got that, they got a source of fuel and low gravity for cheaper launches towards mars, europa, etc.

Total Recall anyone?

RV

If I had a billion, that's exactly what I'd do with 90% of it, the rest would fund the evil real estate empire I'm currently setting up now (just way slower).
 
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