Cramped spaceships

[WarriorKnight]

We've had quite a few "discussions" about this in our group.I introduced a ship with something like the japanese "rooms";2 to 3 stacked;on board ship.passage in them is 2000Cr.We have a player who is very anal about the rules & threw a fit when I introduced them in the game.In my Imperial Navy ships the bunkroom style is used a lot for crew jr officers bunking 2 to 3 to a cabin.I love running games w/cramped quarters.Never understood why everyone wanted to have their characters blow a crap load of $ on hotel/motel rooms when they've got such nice rooms already on ship.One time I measured off how big the cabins are in Traveller in the room we game & the room was 12' x 10' .They had a better feeling of how big the rooms are & a lot more characters started staying aboard ship more often.

 

[Major B]

While I agree the salaries and costs are high (I change the economics for MTU) I wouldn't go so far as to say that the ships are spacious or the crew and passengers pampered. Not when deckplans are drawn to the correct size and scale and everything is included.

Dan, you're making me flash back to my struggle with the Kinunir deckplans. Billeting the crew was a struggle mostly because the Black Globe required so many minders, and the result was not spacious in the least. The 3m x 3m rooms ended up bunking four with some half-width rooms bunking two (for the juniormost petty officers) and freshers were shared facilities nearby. The commander, I think, was the only member of the crew that rated a room to himself.

I think the result could be a counterpoint to Hans' assertion in the OP.

 

[OIT]

Per person functional analysis

So if some cheapskate government wanted to build less spacious warships, what would be the lower limits? How much of the traditional 4dT per stateroom is life support, and how little living space can you get away with providing?


Hans

Hans,
An interesting question. Looking at the volume of space allocated for enlisted personnel in a current day surface warship (US FFG7), I have come up with the following numbers per person:

0.48tons - basic Berthing: includes 1 coffin rack (190cm long, 50cm wide, 20cm clearance from the man's eyeballs to the rack ceiling, an average male laying supine can place his elbow on the mattress and brush the ceiling of the rack with his knuckles), storage space for roughly 20kg clothes and gear, 1 commode per 20 personnel, 1 shower per 30 personnel, 1 sink per 15 personnel, 1 urinal per 30 personnel. Coffin racks stacked three high in berthings holding 52-70 personnel each.
0.29tons - Fluids: includes drinking wtaer, shower and food prep/cleaning water, grey water, urine, and sewage
0.12tons - Life Support machinery. Includes climate control, ventilation, waste fluid processing, etc. NOTE: This figure is for an open loop system where air and water are freely available and ambient external temps do not vary more than 40C from human comfortable. This figure may provide a starting point, but I think it should be multiplied by 3 or 5, at a minimum, for closed loop systems.
.30tons - Messing: includes freeze boxes, chill boxes, refrigeration machinery, dry food storage, food prep area (galley), food cleaning area (scullery), trash storage space, and 1 messing seat per 6 personnel (each person has 15min to eat per meal, then make space for the next guy).
0.14tons - Other: includes limited laundry facility, ship's office with 1 desk per 50 personnel, sickbay with 1 bed per 100 personnel (may be accounted for seperately depending on ruleset), armory, ship's locker, bonded stores locker (ship's safe).
0.08tons - Passageways: 0.5m x 1m x 2m worth of passageway per person.

Total = 1.41tons per person without allowing for any `quality of life' space (lounge/gym/conference room/library/etc). Additionally, the life support machinery requirements should add .24-.48tons per person.

By the way, none of the spaces in this example are 2.4m high, more like 2.0m.

How cramped could it be? How about:

1ton per person - Absolute minimum to support biologically active human in space. Mass berthing or racks in workspaces (atop sotres, on ammo, etc). Coffin rack as above (Note: the standard for 20cm clearance above the body goes back, in one form or another, to the 18th century). All personnel hotrack. Personal storage space for 4 uniforms, underwear, socks, toilettries, 1-2 paperback books, notebook computer OR spare pair of shoes, minimal personal effects. No shaving, no showering. 1 spongebath per 4-5 days. No food prep areas, all meals are pre-packaged and pre-cooked. No messing areas, all meals are taken `on station'. Trash accumulated during jump kept on station in workspaces. No passageways, must transit series of workspaces and berthings to get anywhere. No laundry. No recreation spaces. WWII U-Boat or Age of Sail.

1.5ton per person - Mass berthing. Coffin rack as above. All enlisted personnel hotrack. Personal storage space for 20kg. Daily shaving, 1 Navy shower (10sec water on, water off, soap and lather shampoo, 20sec water on to rinse, water off, step out and dry off) per 24-48hours, limited food prep - fresh food for 4-5 days after leaving port, all subsequent meals pre-packaged and pre-cooked, messing space for 1person per 6 crewmembers (15min to eat per meal, no socializing), mess area doubles as office/training space/lounge during non-meal hours. Limited trash storage. Very few passageways, still have to transit workspaces and berthings in most cases. 1 laundry machine (stacked washer/dryer) per 100 crew. No recreation spaces. Some modern diesel subs, some 60s era nuke subs, or WWII DE.

2ton per person - `Mess' (6-10 personnel) berthing or 2-3 person staterooms depending on cultural norms. No hotracking. Slightly larger rack space (sufficient to roll over without brushing the ceiling, but not enough to sit upright). Personal storage space for 50kg (20kg in berthing remainder in `seabag' locker), Daily shaving, one 5min shower per day. Modest food prep areas. Fresh food for 10-14days after leaving port, pre-packaged food thereafter. Messing space for 1person per 4 crew (20min to eat, limited socializing during meals possible). Mess area doubles as training area/lounge during non-meal hours. Seperate office space with 1 desk per 30 crew. Sufficient trash storage for duration of one jump. Passageways for most transit, but transit through workspaces still required in some cases. 1 laundry machine per 50 personnel, supports weekly laundry use by each crewmember. Possibly tiny ship's store (toilettries) and barber shop (1 chair per 200 crew). Dedicated lounge space with 1 seat per 10 crew. Limited fitness space (one fitness apparatus per 20 crew). Modern nuke sub, smaller surface combatants.


Personally, I think the issue is not that 2dtons per person is excessively `spacious' or that crews are `pampered', rather that most deckplans do not adequately account for life support volume. Let me put it this way, I don't recall having ever seen a sewage holding tank, refrigeration compressor, or scullery on any deckplans.


Anyway, hope the above gives you more insight on your question,
OIT

 

[CosmicGamer]

Thanks OIT, good info

 

[Mithras]

Maybe we should not be looking at the military, but the merchant marine. Most of the ships in my game are civillian, are they pampered? How much space does a typical deckhand or officer have on a container ship or oil tanker?

 

[Major B]

OIT, thanks for posting that per-person breakdown. You just gave me a starting point for something that I've been trying to think through for awhile - houseruling the MT design sequence to show what life support, extended life support, and accomodations really translate into on a deck plan.

If you'd like a look at what I come up with, please send me a PM. I'd appreciate your feedback if you're interested.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

In all my years playing CT (over 30), i don't believe i had ever eperienced anything else than cramped quarters. Hmm, perhaps i should shock my group of players (when i find a new group) and make something more roomy, perhaps like some kind of space luxury liner.

 

[Patron Zero]

Class Distrinctions

The way I interpret such in my Traveller universe is that 'working' ships, to include freighters and military-naval vessels, are very utilitarian in ammenities and allotment of interior spaces.

Simply said, common bunk areas for the crews and spartan but workable shared other spaces such as communal freshers and multi-use galley-commons. The 'logic' behind such being less waste means more cargo or fuel.

I've always seen 'working' ships to reflect the interiors of WWII era submarines, adjustments for Traveller era necessities a given but the same no frills-all business attitude and appearance.

It's entirely a different matter for passengers on couriers, yachts or liners, luxury and comfort being the point and purpose to those vessels.

 

[Starviking]

One thing that might have bearing on the issue is that spaceships usually operate far from any hospitable or natural environment - perhaps the spacious quarters help stave off psychological problems.

Now I realize the counterpoint is the submarine - but they must by design be cramped (or at least be more cramped than their surface navy comrades), and are still near a natural environment. Also, in the Traveller paradigm there is space to spare on spaceships if you choose to set it aside, so if it's good for morale - why not?

 

[Zutroi]

That tonnage has to include galleys, freshers, exercise areas, and the life support gear... IMTU commercial vessels are built to "1 small stateroom for each required crew member" standards. As soon as you start going over that minimum (Are you gonna carry gunners for the turrets? How about a drive hand so the engineer doesn't have to live beside the control board 24/7?) you get the 'desired' crowding.

Yeah, crowding is desired as it gives the PCs added incentive to go off and get into trouble when dirtside!

 

[sabredog]

My standard crew stateroom is 2 tons of living space, officers have 3 tons with possibly an attached office. That's pretty much the standard across the board unless the vessel is made for luxury in which case the sky is the limit for stateroom size.

Regardless of how large the actual living space in the stateroom is, the minimum of 4 tons per person is required for civilian vessels (double occupancy for civilians just means more pinetree fresheners hanging in front of the vents), and for military craft is is the same, but double bunking is the norm so it actually works out to the 2 tons per person as per HG. if the captain gets a living space of 5 tons then his overall lifesupport tonnage is 8 tons since they come in the same 4 ton package. It just means 3 tons is allocated to support of the effectively double stateroom.

 

[coldwar]

When I design my vessels, (which I thoughly enjoy a bit to much) I take in to account what it is designed for. Military ships I usually double up on the crew requirements, so it can operate in two 12 hour periods with a full crew at any given time. However with Military ships (not Including Officers) I give the crew Cabins instead of Staterooms and double bunk them along with enough freshers to support the crew. Whislt the Officers either have there own stateroom, or get a double stateroom.

For Civilian ships I tend to buy one cabin per crew member, unless the target market that will buy it can afford much bigger roomsm, in which case it will be staterooms. These would be vessels like Lab ships and Yatchs.

For Passengers I prefer Lowberth (Kinda my setting), but most non low passage or mixed ships I equipe with staterooms, with double beds as standard.

For anything else except Bridge units I class as being the full height unless it is near the skin of the ship, in which case only 6" is taken off, though most of my designs have the skin moving around such things as cargo holds to be albe to make it the full height. Such as a two deck ship, its cargo hold will be 6 metres in height. But the area around the cargo hold ie from the bottom of the ship to the top will be 6.3 metres in height on cross section plans for the full dimensions of the vessel.

 

[leo knight]

This thread has revived my old compulsion to count the floor/ cieling tiles in any room I enter, and attempting to calculate its tonnage.

Time for my medication.

 

[alveric]

This thread has revived my old compulsion to count the floor/ cieling tiles in any room I enter, and attempting to calculate its tonnage.

Thats not so unusual - I know that my front room at home is approx. 10 feet by 15 feet, and the main office at work is 15 feet square.

Having something real to scale against, really helps with deckplans &c, I think.

A.

 

[Sir Brad]

In LBB-2 the few Military Grade ships where built around Sheared Occupancy for the "Standard Complement" and single occupancy if you where just bringing the Crew. In MT you could cut the Accommodation requirement by 20% for the Solomani. and I quote Solomani and Aslan p.41 Solomani starships tend to be slightly more cramped than Imperial designs, and the Solomani mindset doesn't seem to mind the "Closeness" this creates

10 people sheering 16-20 d-tons with their supply's for the month, Life support equipment and Structure that's a tight squeeze.

 

[Dragoner]

I wonder how much of the life support is actually water, I never thought that the light partitions weighed that much.

 

[alveric]

The problem is, that we allow maybe two feet above a suspended ceiling for "life support" - this means there isn't room for extensive air or water tanks. Traveller ship designs rarely allow dedicated life support areas (volumes?). We don't put some sort of hydroponic bay or anything like that, and just kind of work on there being magical hi-tech stuff which makes all the air and water.

If we were going to be realistic (-ish) then I would have thought that a portion of the volume set aside for accommodation would be dedicated compartments like Engineering, containing air scrubbers, water reclaimers &c &c.

A.

 

[Dragoner]

I just thought the equipment was very compact in the engineering section, however, yes, big water tanks would have to there. Even in reclaimation there would be waste that has to be replenished.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The problem is, that we allow maybe two feet above a suspended ceiling for "life support" - this means there isn't room for extensive air or water tanks. Traveller ship designs rarely allow dedicated life support areas (volumes?). We don't put some sort of hydroponic bay or anything like that, and just kind of work on there being magical hi-tech stuff which makes all the air and water.

If we were going to be realistic (-ish) then I would have thought that a portion of the volume set aside for accommodation would be dedicated compartments like Engineering, containing air scrubbers, water reclaimers &c &c. A.

You could always reduce that 'two feet above the ceiling' and do as you say, dedicate some space. If this were done, I'd want to redo combat tables too so that life support could be hit.

Myself, I assumed the 'bulk' items were in engineering but each individual area has it's own scrubbers and each fresher has its own water reclaimer.

I'm a little concerned that as you get more realistic things will get more complicated. Assigning different types of life support with different space requirements depending on the TL, capacity (some additional efficiency with higher capacity systems), race, and who knows what else.

 

[alveric]

Myself, I assumed the 'bulk' items were in engineering but each individual area has it's own scrubbers and each fresher has its own water reclaimer.

Thats a good idea!

A.