Crew Space Too High in Traveller?

[casquilho]

I always thought crew spaces were also used for other things, such as the torpedo room having racks(bunks) in them, so there would be overlapping uses for each dton.

While I agree Warships have more of this kind of use of space, I would not want to see the generic ship design system to be based on a warship point of view. Rather, allow "exceptions" on minimum needs if the ship is a warship.

Daniel

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Does Traveller require too much space to be allocated to crew on starships (2 tons per crewman; assuming double occupancy)?

No. It includes common spaces and passageways, too.

And note that a nuclear submarine envisions journeys of several months' duration compared with the 2 weeks turnarous of most Traveller jumps.

Yes, but the submariners don't actually live on board the vessel. They have homes (and, often nice ones - nuke sub pay is pretty good) where they keep all their extra stuff and where they live the other 6 months a year. A better example would be some merchant marine ships - where the sailors have no real home port for most of the year.

I've noticed that cruise ships fit 6 people into a stateroom that would consume 6.6 dtons (of course, things like accessways, appointments, etc., should be added to this). The larger staterooms are about 1.4 dtons per person, double occupancy.

But, you're obviously forgetting the dining facilities on a cruise ship - those have to be included in the space allotment. And, that's not even counting the shuffleboard area, the pools, the casinos.......

 

[aramis]

A couple of cautionary issues of using Sub Deckplans:

1) It is not uncommon to have crew berths in duty stations, ESPECIALLY torpedo rooms. So that does reduce the volume of that torpedo bay.

2) Sub crews are elites; many wash out since they can not handle the crush.
2a) Sub types who can't handle it can be seconded to the surface fleet...
2b)There is no equivalent in the space navy.

The tightest short-duty craft run 0.5Td (7m³) per person...

Typical use seems to be between 1 and 3 Td (14-21m³) per crewman...

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

Hi,

Overall, if you do away with the assumption that people will be berthed in 1 or 2 person staterooms you could probably easily reduce the required space requirements, but [Edit] (in addition to the things Aramis & fritz-Brown note above) [End Edit] there are some things that probably need to be taken into consideration to try and estimate how low would be reasonable.

In the book "Living in Space - A Handbook for Work & Exploration Stations Beyond the Earth's Atmosphere" there is a graph attributed to NASA plotting personal space and volume required by people versus length of habitation. This graph appears to suggest that nuclear submarines fall into a range of about 10 to 30 cubic meters per person, but its not clear what all they are including in that volume. (And as I understand it accommodations on submarines aren't really based on berthing the crew in single or double occupancy staterooms.)

Further with regards to submarines here's a student thesis paper that has some rough area estimate equations for spaces onboard a submarine (mostly in terms of deck area requirements). http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/33587. From a paper entitled "Fundamentals of Submarine Concept Design" suggests a deck height for modern submarines between 7.25 to 7.75 ft.

Additionally, here is another paper with some more info on modern subs. In it, it suggests between 218 and 378 cubic feet per person for ship support and 16 to 20 gal/man-day of water. However, its not fully clear if this "ship support" group includes all the stuff like electrical generation, the water and sanitation system, and other related machinery that may actually be located back with the propulsion machinery on the vessels.

With respect to water requirements, for surface ships, I have some info that suggests about 40 gal/man or about 151kg/man (332.8lb/man) of fresh water. I also have some info on approximate volumes for fresh food, chilled food, and frozen food stores as well, that I can try and dig up.

Finally, in the book "Space Stations - Systems and Utilization" under "human mass flows" it lists in input for potable water for a person of 3.55kg/person-day plus another 6.80 kg/person-day for hygiene water. However, it also later lists an expected water requirement for a four-person crew aboard a space station of about 96 kg/day when you take into consideration washing machine usage etc, which works out to about 24kg/person-day in total.

Anyway its just some info that I though might be of use, and wanted to share.

Regards

PF

 

[mike wightman]

Has it been mentioned yet that civilian Traveller ships can use double occupancy for crew/charter passengers - 2dt per person is reasonable - but at the cost of twice the life support consumables.

I usually only use 4 squares on a deckplan for a stateroom and use the rest for communal areas (the 10% rule is also used in case I need more corridor space).

There is a great temptation to look at the common area on deck plans, the corridors etc. and think "well I could cram a few more in there on bunks or matresses because there's room" - but will the life support, grav plates and acceleration compensator cope with the addded burden?

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Not to mention the homicidal issues of people coming into the common area and turning on the HiD to watch something, and there's someone trying to sleep in there. Trust me (having been berthed in some barracks-style accomodations shipboard), it does not make for gentle conversation.

 

[PFVA63]

Some Additional Data

Hi,

Here is a plot of some of the data I posted about previously, from the book "Living in Space".

Regards

PF

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Ooohhh! Shiny!

 

[pendragonman]

Nice. Excellent find.

 

[Sifu Blackirish]

I spent some time on a carrier (CV-41, USS Midway), so I might have some insights.

Enlisted berthing spaces are REALLY cramped. My personal space was about the size of a coffin, with only curtains separating me from the world. Also, there was a space about 6 inches deep underneath the bunk, and a small locker. In this compartment, there was also a small common area with enough room for a TV and a table with 4 chairs.

Work space really doesn't count--how can you relax there?

What really became important to me was being able to get into any space, no matter how small, that didn't have another face in it. Fortunately for me, I am not claustrophobic...

 

[Ishmael]

Work space really doesn't count--how can you relax there?

I loved my space on the Kitty Hawk, directly under cat 1 jbd. I had my stereo and games and a commodore64 and I secretly connected a tv in the cat chief's vcr, so I had ⌧ on occasion too. Of course my job was either feast or famine; I either worked my ass of for days or had nothing to do, but stand-by for work if the cats broke. 16 on and 8 off every day at sea.

I know why that corridor looks so roomy...no control cabinets/transformers/cable runs/fire fighting gear/etc. etc.
Without those on the walls... that corridor looks twice as wide as it should be.

Its as neat and tidy as star trek
Not gritty and functional like Alien(s) or a u-boat
no matter how much its cleaned or polished, a hard used ship a few decades old won't be that new looking.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I spent some time on a carrier (CV-41, USS Midway), so I might have some insights.

Enlisted berthing spaces are REALLY cramped. My personal space was about the size of a coffin, with only curtains separating me from the world. Also, there was a space about 6 inches deep underneath the bunk, and a small locker. In this compartment, there was also a small common area with enough room for a TV and a table with 4 chairs.

Come on now, don't forget all the room in the enlisted dining area! Had to be 200dT minimum just in there, right?!

I know why that corridor looks so roomy...no control cabinets/transformers/cable runs/fire fighting gear/etc. etc.
Without those on the walls... that corridor looks twice as wide as it should be.

Yes - and if everything is so neat and tidy, then the passageway will be much narrower, because they'll just lay the wall material overtop the conduit and crap.

Oh, and I berthed under the jet blast deflector one trip (that's what he meant by "jbd", I think). And, they just had to do night ops while I was aboard....... :nonono:

 

[navywarlord]

Come on now, don't forget all the room in the enlisted dining area! Had to be 200dT minimum just in there, right?!


Yes - and if everything is so neat and tidy, then the passageway will be much narrower, because they'll just lay the wall material overtop the conduit and crap.

Oh, and I berthed under the jet blast deflector one trip (that's what he meant by "jbd", I think). And, they just had to do night ops while I was aboard....... :nonono:

I served on CV-64, CV-62 and CVN-72 during my navy career and my work space was always in the island structure. Our electronics gear was packed into the island compartments with furniture and lockers wedged inbetween. And we berthing AC failed, we string up hammocks to sleep between the radar cabinets (electronic spaces had priority for AC).

Every space had dual purposes (sometimes more then that) so it always felt cramped no matter what space you were in (even the wide open mess decks aka the bomb/missile assembly areas). A crew will learn fast to use all the availible space

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

Seeing as we have enough ex-squids here to provide all the berthing compartment comparisons we'll ever need, I limit myself to a few other comments:

- Water: Given that the smallest Traveller starship has a powerplant rated in megawatts, concerns over water usage are misplaced. There are more than enough watts for water to be recycled and reused on demand. (While serving aboard USS Dale CG-19, I routinely experienced "water hours". While serving aboard USS California, CGN-36, the reactors had enough "left-over" power as to make distillation a trivial concern. In both enginerooms, we regularly ran the evaporators while directing their output to the bilges because we'd run out of room in our storage tanks.)

- Personal sanitation: These activities in the 57th Century; which will range from "bathing" to laundering clothes to clean-up after visiting the fresher, may not require water at all. Heck, even the freshers may not use water in the manner we assume.

- Atmospherics: As with water, there will be enough power to recycle/reuse atmospheric gasses on demand too. My biggest concern is over actual losses of atmospheric gasses; forex: Do airlocks vent to space? Are compartments decompressed into tanks or into space?

- Personal Space: As already pointed out, while nuc submarines are good analogies for Traveller starships they are not perfect analogies. At the very least, submariners live in barracks ashore in between patrols. All other naval personnel are not afforded that "luxury"(1) and it effects retention markedly. Seeing as Beowulf crews among others will actually live aboard their tramp trader, more space will be necessary.

In the Real World, we already see military and commercial organizations having trouble hanging onto highly skilled personnel because of life style issues and the same issues should hold true in the 57th Century. You can only get so many warm bodies by selling the "adventure" angle.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Aboard USS California, those men who were able to sleep in their automobiles were admired. Several men in my division slept out in the base parking lot in their cars, trucks, and - one case - a motor home. In the civilian world they'd be pitied as "homeless" while aboard my cruiser they were envied.

 

[pendragonman]

As to Bill's reference 1)

Wow. I thought I had it bad having to sleep under the gun tube on my tank 4-5 weeks out of 8.

 

[navywarlord]

Gents,
(While serving aboard USS Dale CG-19, I routinely experienced "water hours". While serving aboard USS California, CGN-36, the reactors had enough "left-over" power as to make distillation a trivial concern. In both enginerooms, we regularly ran the evaporators while directing their output to the bilges because we'd run out of room in our storage tanks.).

Wow - water hours - that brings back a few memories. My first 2 CVs were boiler driven - water priorities were the engines, catapults then the crew... My last CV(N) made so much fresh water, we ended up dumping excess overboard.

- Personal sanitation: These activities in the 57th Century; which will range from "bathing" to laundering clothes to clean-up after visiting the fresher, may not require water at all. Heck, even the freshers may not use water in the manner we assume.

- Atmospherics: As with water, there will be enough power to recycle/reuse atmospheric gasses on demand too. My biggest concern is over actual losses of atmospheric gasses; forex: Do airlocks vent to space? Are compartments decompressed into tanks or into space?

- Personal Space: As alreayd pointed out, while nuc submarines are good analogies for Traveller starships they are not perfect analogies. At the very least, submariners live in barracks ashore in between patrols. All other naval personnel are not afforded that luxury(1) and it effects retention markedly. Seeing as Beowulf crews among others will actually live aboard their tramp trader, more space will be necessary.

In the Real World, we already see military and commercial organizations having trouble hanging onto highly skilled personnel because of life style issues and the same issues should hold true in the 57th Century. You can only get so many warm bodies by selling the "adventure" angle.

As for atmosphere, I would think that atmosphere gases would be saved as much as possible during airlock operations and the like. Only in emergencies when you have to vent (to put out that nasty class "C" fire), would you lose significant atmosphere.

Sanitation and water retention, the black water would be processed to recover what water you could and that water then recycled through processors to make it drinkable. The resulting sludge would be stored until the next port (or vented to space for those who didn't care). Gray water would be handled the same way.

And since the crew would be expected to live onboard 99% of the time (only getting apartments during overhauls), one would need more "elbow room" to keep morale up

 

[Ishmael]

how funny would it be if the hook-ups were made during refueling?
once, on my ship, jp5 was accidentally pumped into the water system. we could actually set fire to the water! It took a few days to get things okay again.

Think how fun something like that would be in jump.

as far as space on scoutships are... well...scouts have always been considered to be "eccentric" I don't think morale there would be a problem.

Navy ships would be cramped too, imho, as every cubic meter would be used...lo-tech for sure.
FASA makes comments how solomani navy ships are cramped compared to vilani ( wusses! )

 

[far-trader]

...FASA makes comments how solomani navy ships are cramped compared to vilani ( wusses! )

Yeah, something like 3 to a stateroom iirc. That's really packing them in like sardines :smirk:

 

[PFVA63]

Hi, in GT:IW...

Hi,

In GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars, Terrans warships (and some other special purpose ships) are allowed to make use of 1 dton bunkrooms (about 5 ft x 10ft in size) which can house up to 10 crewmen in a somewhat very cramped arrangement.

Regards

PF

 

[far-trader]

Hi,

In GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars, Terrans warships (and some other special purpose ships) are allowed to make use of 1 dton bunkrooms (about 5 ft x 10ft in size) which can house up to 10 crewmen in a somewhat very cramped arrangement.

Regards

PF

Now that is a sardine can!

(but I suppose GT does all the associate spaces separately, like freshers, galley, common, etc. )