CT Only: CT AM 3 Vargar Corsair Crew requirements Book 2 and Book5/HGS

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

Why are the vehicle and small craft crews on hulls between 100 and 1,000 in HG2/High Guard Shipyard not allowed to use the rule of one crew person filling two positions as allowed in Book 2?

The Vargr Corsair described in CT AM 3 page 13, corrected by the Consolidated CT Errata and verified by me stepping through the design sequence, is 9. The Corsair carries two G-Carriers and a 50-ton Modular Cutter and no crew is mentioned. From this my guess is the Book 2 rule of one person filling two positions was used by the designer.

Book 5 states that hulls <=1,00 tons use Book 2 crews which suggests to me that the drivers for the two G-Carriers and the Modular Cutter crew could be filled by one of the ship's crew having the appropriate skill per Book 2.

Using High Guard Shipyard the drivers of the G-Carriers and the Modular Cutter crew are added to the required crew and the required number of staterooms.

I did not see anything in the Consolidated CT Errata that addressed this particular item any help would be appreciated.

 

[pendragonman]

Hello all,

Why are the vehicle and small craft crews on hulls between 100 and 1,000 in HG2/High Guard Shipyard not allowed to use the rule of one crew person filling two positions as allowed in Book 2?

The Vargr Corsair described in CT AM 3 page 13, corrected by the Consolidated CT Errata and verified by me stepping through the design sequence, is 9. The Corsair carries two G-Carriers and a 50-ton Modular Cutter and no crew is mentioned. From this my guess is the Book 2 rule of one person filling two positions was used by the designer.

Book 5 states that hulls <=1,00 tons use Book 2 crews which suggests to me that the drivers for the two G-Carriers and the Modular Cutter crew could be filled by one of the ship's crew having the appropriate skill per Book 2.

Using High Guard Shipyard the drivers of the G-Carriers and the Modular Cutter crew are added to the required crew and the required number of staterooms.

I did not see anything in the Consolidated CT Errata that addressed this particular item any help would be appreciated.

The shipyard is someone's program that they have graciously allowed us all access to. I suspect that the extra coding required for small ships to use book 2 was of particular annoyance to the original coder.

Therefore, figure the crew requirements by hand for ships under 1 kiloton.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy pendragonman,

Thanks for the work around, which kind of defeats the purpose for using HGS.

The shipyard is someone's program that they have graciously allowed us all access to. I suspect that the extra coding required for small ships to use book 2 was of particular annoyance to the original coder.

Therefore, figure the crew requirements by hand for ships under 1 kiloton.

Yes, Andrea Vallance graciously made HGS accessible to every Traveller gearhead, and I am fairly confident that she has tried to make HGS compatible with Book 2 per Book 5 HG2 rules as possible. Small rules, like the one person filling two positions are easily over looked.

Of course trying to incorporate Book 2 drives and power plants is a whole other kettle of fish. In one of my HG2 spreadsheet drafts I did incorporate Book 2 and HG2 drives and power plants which appeared to work until I tried something which broke the spreadsheet.

Until my project on CT AM 3 I had not thought about applying the one person two position rule on Book 2 designs let alone for Book 5. I also never tried to use Book 2 drives until now.

Part of my CT AM 3 project is verifying the designs requested by Donald McKinney as part of his errata efforts by designing earlier hulls under HG2 rules. Since the Corsair detailed in CT AM 3 appears to have used the one person being able to fill two positions the document I sent for the CT AM 3 Corsair designed using Book 2 needs revising.

Again thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Carlobrand]

Hello all,

Why are the vehicle and small craft crews on hulls between 100 and 1,000 in HG2/High Guard Shipyard not allowed to use the rule of one crew person filling two positions as allowed in Book 2?

The Vargr Corsair described in CT AM 3 page 13, corrected by the Consolidated CT Errata and verified by me stepping through the design sequence, is 9. The Corsair carries two G-Carriers and a 50-ton Modular Cutter and no crew is mentioned. From this my guess is the Book 2 rule of one person filling two positions was used by the designer.

Book 5 states that hulls <=1,00 tons use Book 2 crews which suggests to me that the drivers for the two G-Carriers and the Modular Cutter crew could be filled by one of the ship's crew having the appropriate skill per Book 2.

Using High Guard Shipyard the drivers of the G-Carriers and the Modular Cutter crew are added to the required crew and the required number of staterooms.

I did not see anything in the Consolidated CT Errata that addressed this particular item any help would be appreciated.

I do not understand the question. HG2 clearly does allow small ships to default to the Book-2 rules, since you quote the section where it makes that allowance. As to HG Shipyard, I'm looking at it, and the craft section asks you to enter the crew yourself. You may elect to add crew for the craft or to not add crew. So long as the ship's small enough to stay with Book-2 rules, adding one or ten or even a hundred craft/vehicles won't add an single person to the crew unless you tell it to add someone. What version are you using?

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy Carlobrand,

I do not understand the question. HG2 clearly does allow small ships to default to the Book-2 rules, since you quote the section where it makes that allowance. As to HG Shipyard, I'm looking at it, and the craft section asks you to enter the crew yourself. You may elect to add crew for the craft or to not add crew. So long as the ship's small enough to stay with Book-2 rules, adding one or ten or even a hundred craft/vehicles won't add an single person to the crew unless you tell it to add someone. What version are you using?

Sorry to be so unclear Carlobrand my only defense is that I was half a sleep and looking at to many books at one time when I put the post up.

Thanks for mentioning that the Craft section of HGS requires the designer to enter the crew for the craft or vehicle. That is where I made my error, which thanks to you has been corrected.

Until looking at CT AM 3 Vargr Starships and Space Travel and tried replicating the Corsair I was surprised that the G-Carrier and Modular Cutter crews weren't counted. Then I rediscovered the one person filling two positions option and the light bulb came on.

Thanks for the nudge and waking me up, as usual my thinking cap was not fully seated before asking a silly question.

 

[shield]

for the corsair, you could aways say the vehicles etc were crewed and maintainer by the ship's troops.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening PDT shield,

for the corsair, you could aways say the vehicles etc were crewed and maintainer by the ship's troops.

From the wording and working out the design using Book 2 the normal crew is 9 and by double occupancy of the 12 staterooms the crew expands to 24. The additional personnel would be raiders or boarding party members, who would probably be driving the G-Carriers and cutter. Without the extra bodies one or more of the standard ship's crew has a secondary skill to operate a G-Carrier and the cutter otherwise they are taking up valuable space.

Which in away is what you, I think, are suggesting.

Book 2 Starships Drives on a Book 5 HG2 hull, unless I messed up the design, still allows the 12 single occupancy staterooms and the 20 tons of cargo space. The straight HG2 design allows for 10 double occupancy staterooms leaving 5 tons of cargo.

I have submitted three versions to Donald McKinney, unfortunately, the Book 2/Book 5 hull needs reworking since I forgot about the cost of the fittings required for small craft in Book 5.

In CT AM 4 the Zhodani Escort, pp.40-4, has a crew of 13 plus 17 other personnel. One of the additional personnel is a gunner. That is part of the reason I became confused when I ran the Vargr Corsair through High Guard Shipyard. I somehow merged the two. The other part was not thinking to clearly and added the crews for the Vargr Corsair's G-Carriers and cutter.

Thanks for the reply and help.

 

[Vladika]

Evening PDT shield,
... unfortunately, the Book 2/Book 5 hull needs reworking since I forgot about the cost of the fittings required for small craft in Book 5. ...

Tom, my AM 4 isn't available at the moment., but, IIRC, HG allows small craft to be carried at their own tonnage in 1000dton hulls or less. Are your Vargr ships at 1000dton or less?

Small craft are carried at their own tonnage on ships 1000 tons and under; they require
tonnage equal to 130% of their mass within the hull of larger ships. HG2 p 32

 

[Carlobrand]

Tom, my AM 4 isn't available at the moment., but, IIRC, HG allows small craft to be carried at their own tonnage in 1000dton hulls or less. Are your Vargr ships at 1000dton or less?

Small craft are carried at their own tonnage on ships 1000 tons and under; they require
tonnage equal to 130% of their mass within the hull of larger ships. HG2 p 32

HG Shipyard is applying the same rule. Up to a thousand dTons it's taking small craft at their own tonnage. At 1001 dTons and up, it's 130% of tonnage.

Cost of fittings is supposed to be Cr2000 per dTon of space allocated to small craft, and HG shipyard is correctly subtracting that cost.

Snrd, if you do a "text export," (File/Text Export) it will give you a notepad file with detailed description of the ship including an item by item breakdown of the mass and cost of all its parts. Or, you can do a "component export," (File/Component Export) to get just the item by item breakdown. That'll help with checking your build. Also helps if you want to post something - you can just copy and paste the notepad file with a bit of editing.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy Vladika,

Tom, my AM 4 isn't available at the moment., but, IIRC, HG allows small craft to be carried at their own tonnage in 1000dton hulls or less. Are your Vargr ships at 1000dton or less?

AM3 is Vargr and AM4 is Zhodani my apologies if I confused them.

The Vargr Corsair is a 400 ton hull and all the ship's on CT AM 3 pp. 12-13 are under 1,000 tons.

Small craft are carried at their own tonnage on ships 1000 tons and under; they require
tonnage equal to 130% of their mass within the hull of larger ships. HG2 p 32

You are correct on vessels >=100 and <=1,000 ton small craft take up space = to the small craft's tonnage. However, HG2 page 32 requires a cost of Cr2,000 per ton, which I think covers the gear needed to keep the small craft from bouncing around their storage space, refueling, other maintenance related equipment and some spare parts.

Hopefully I'm making sense here because my body is telling me to go to bed.

Thanks for the input.