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CT Special Supplemet 3 Missiles Solid Fuel

snrdg082102

SOC-14 1K
Hi all,

Both continuous burn and limited burn propulsion systems use solid fuel to generate thrust. The continuous burn system can't have a guidance system while the limited burn can.

Both use solid fuel so why can't one use a guidance system and the other can? What am I missing?
 
Both use solid fuel so why can't one use a guidance system and the other can? What am I missing?

Ooh, ooh, I know the answer to this one!

The basic assumption of a limited burn missile in operation is that it leaves the launcher and accelerates rapidly (exhausting the first block of fuel), then it coasts along a fixed vector at a constant velocity for a while, eventually it ends up in the general vicinity of that evil enemy ship ... at this point it ignites the second fuel pellet and accelerates and maneuvers towards its target.

The basic assumption of a continuous burn missile in operation is that it leaves the launcher and accelerates rapidly (exhausting the first block of fuel), then it coasts along a fixed vector at a constant velocity until it either hits or misses the evil enemy ship ... there is no fuel for a final maneuver towards its target.

Most missile engagements are far beyond the initial burn range.
 
Morning atpollard,

Thanks for the answer or at least an answer that is better than the one I didn't have.

Ooh, ooh, I know the answer to this one!

The basic assumption of a limited burn missile in operation is that it leaves the launcher and accelerates rapidly (exhausting the first block of fuel), then it coasts along a fixed vector at a constant velocity for a while, eventually it ends up in the general vicinity of that evil enemy ship ... at this point it ignites the second fuel pellet and accelerates and maneuvers towards its target.

The basic assumption of a continuous burn missile in operation is that it leaves the launcher and accelerates rapidly (exhausting the first block of fuel), then it coasts along a fixed vector at a constant velocity until it either hits or misses the evil enemy ship ... there is no fuel for a final maneuver towards its target.

Most missile engagements are far beyond the initial burn range.
 
In any case, the lack of further trust once the missile exhausted its fuel to accelerate makes them quite easy to evade if launched at long distances, as the ship can well maneuver out of the missile way while the missile, having not more trust, cannot countermaneuver to put itself in the ship's way (there is not atmosphere where to use fins, and all maneuver must come from trust).

This is, IMHO, quite contrary to the missiles being long range weapons (as shown in HG with its -1 at close range, or in Imperium, where missiles are used for long distance while beams for short range).

See that the maneuver capability of limited burst missiles will nor fullfill this role, as, as Atpollard tells, is just for targeting maneuver once near to the target.
 
The basic assumption of a continuous burn missile in operation is that it leaves the launcher and accelerates rapidly (exhausting the first block of fuel), then it coasts along a fixed vector at a constant velocity until it either hits or misses the evil enemy ship ... there is no fuel for a final maneuver towards its target.

Most missile engagements are far beyond the initial burn range.

That type of missile will never hit a ship that is capable of acceleration unless it is on a fixed course with zero changes. Basically, useless.
 
Howdy McPerth,

In any case, the lack of further trust once the missile exhausted its fuel to accelerate makes them quite easy to evade if launched at long distances, as the ship can well maneuver out of the missile way while the missile, having not more trust, cannot countermaneuver to put itself in the ship's way (there is not atmosphere where to use fins, and all maneuver must come from trust).

This is, IMHO, quite contrary to the missiles being long range weapons (as shown in HG with its -1 at close range, or in Imperium, where missiles are used for long distance while beams for short range).

See that the maneuver capability of limited burst missiles will nor fullfill this role, as, as Atpollard tells, is just for targeting maneuver once near to the target.

My best guess is that HG missiles are based on CT Book 2, pages 16-17, missile described as being a homing type that has a mass of about 50 kg and costs Cr5000.

CT Book 2 you measure distances in HG the sides declare combat figure out has the initiative and then fire on each others ships. (Okay not quite that simple)

I'm thinking of the continuous burn missile being similar to early torpedoes, best used for targets in close or stationary. Not a prefect vision by a close one.
 
Howdy McPerth,

My best guess is that HG missiles are based on CT Book 2, pages 16-17, missile described as being a homing type that has a mass of about 50 kg and costs Cr5000.

CT Book 2 you measure distances in HG the sides declare combat figure out has the initiative and then fire on each others ships. (Okay not quite that simple)

I'm thinking of the continuous burn missile being similar to early torpedoes, best used for targets in close or stationary. Not a prefect vision by a close one.

Hi Tom,

what I meant (and I guess HG_B too) is that if those missiles that can only accelerate for one combat turn, they will be only useful if they hit enemy in this turn, as aftermath they will keep going on the same vector until they hit something (or are attracted by any celestial body, or, just to avoid that or capture, they self-destroy). Such straight going missiles will be easy to evade by any ship with maneuver drives and a pilot with any brains.

Off course, this makes the missiles close range weapons, instead of the long range weapons they are shown to be in all abstract or strategic Traveller games.
 
That type of missile will never hit a ship that is capable of acceleration unless it is on a fixed course with zero changes. Basically, useless.
I always heard that close counts in horseshoes, hand-grenades and NUCLEAR MISSILES ... but I generally agree that the standard ship-to-ship missile is guided.

Other uses for unguided missiles include:
The standard ship-to-ground (or anti-starbase) missile may sacrifice guidance to deliver a larger warhead.
A point-defense missile operates at a range that places intercept within an initial burn and may use more of a 'golden bb' type of warhead that requires less accuracy.
Bomb-pumped X-ray warheads don't need to impact an enemy ship and might trade terminal guidance for a larger warhead.
An ECM missile designed to jam enemy sensors just needs to get near a target to be effective (increasing the survival probability for other - guided - missiles).
 
Other uses for unguided missiles include:
The standard ship-to-ground (or anti-starbase) missile may sacrifice guidance to deliver a larger warhead.

Good idea

A point-defense missile operates at a range that places intercept within an initial burn and may use more of a 'golden bb' type of warhead that requires less accuracy.

That could work if the enemy ship were mere miles away. Not much further though.

Bomb-pumped X-ray warheads don't need to impact an enemy ship and might trade terminal guidance for a larger warhead.

True. I didn't think of these as I don't use them as they are beyond ridiculously easy to defend against.


An ECM missile designed to jam enemy sensors just needs to get near a target to be effective (increasing the survival probability for other - guided - missiles).

Best idea yet for these missiles.
 
Hi HG_B,

Originally Posted by atpollard
A point-defense missile operates at a range that places intercept within an initial burn and may use more of a 'golden bb' type of warhead that requires less accuracy.

That could work if the enemy ship were mere miles away. Not much further though.

I think atpollard is using a missile instead of a laser to knock out an incoming missile.
 
...A point-defense missile operates at a range that places intercept within an initial burn and may use more of a 'golden bb' type of warhead that requires less accuracy. ...

In other words, a way of turning the missile launcher into what for all practical purposes is a sandcaster, with the minor disadvantage that the defensive "cloud" has a vector away from the launching ship and is therefore only useful against the targeted inbound missile(s).
 
Morning Carlobrand,

In other words, a way of turning the missile launcher into what for all practical purposes is a sandcaster, with the minor disadvantage that the defensive "cloud" has a vector away from the launching ship and is therefore only useful against the targeted inbound missile(s).

In SS3 per page 15 a die roll of 12+ is required for sand to incapacitate a missile.

In CT Book 2 page 17 sandcasters are defensive weapons designed to counter act the strength of incoming laser fire, there is no mention of the effects against missiles.

CT Book 5 page 18 states that sandcasters project a granular agent which obstructs light; when fired it interferes with incoming laser or energy weapon fire. The only place I found that sand affects missiles is on the Missile attack table, of course I probably missed the text.

Mayday when the target is in a sand cloud gives -1 DM against missile fire.

Based on the three of the above details a missile that can lock on to another missile has, I feel haven't tested the concept though, a better chance of taking out the incoming ordnance.
 
In other words, a way of turning the missile launcher into what for all practical purposes is a sandcaster, with the minor disadvantage that the defensive "cloud" has a vector away from the launching ship and is therefore only useful against the targeted inbound missile(s).

I was actually thinking more along the lines of anti-missile missiles deploying titanium or depleted-uranium kinetic-kill pellets in a shotgun pattern at waves of incoming missiles.

Along the lines of a true anti-laser sandcaster-missile, I would suggest a 1G1 engine just to get the sand clear of the ship and a warhead to disperse the cloud. This offers the advantage that for a few credits more per shot than a dedicated sandcaster, a ship can change 30 missile launchers into 30 sandcasters by simply reloading the missile racks. I think that sort of tactical flexibility would be useful ... offense when you want it and defense when you need it.
 
...In SS3 per page 15 a die roll of 12+ is required for sand to incapacitate a missile.

In CT Book 2 page 17 sandcasters are defensive weapons designed to counter act the strength of incoming laser fire, there is no mention of the effects against missiles.

CT Book 5 page 18 states that sandcasters project a granular agent which obstructs light; when fired it interferes with incoming laser or energy weapon fire. The only place I found that sand affects missiles is on the Missile attack table, of course I probably missed the text.

Mayday when the target is in a sand cloud gives -1 DM against missile fire.

Based on the three of the above details a missile that can lock on to another missile has, I feel haven't tested the concept though, a better chance of taking out the incoming ordnance.

Your analysis is correct:

In Mayday, where a missile has about a 6 in 36 (1/6) chance of missing a ship (and where a missile can be shot at another missile with a 10/36 chance of hitting, which is a feature I liked), the sand gives the missile a -1 to its to-hit roll (effectively increasing the chance of a miss from 6 in 36 to 10 in 36).

In Book 2, where a hit is certain if the missile can intercept the ship, sand doesn't do anything to missiles. However, there's an awkwardly worded rule that states, "During the ordance launch phase, missiles or sand which contacted a target in the preceding movement phase now explode or take effect." There's nothing that describes what "effect" sand is supposed to have, and the idea of sand moving and contacting a laser beam is absurd, so I interpret that as meaning at one time they were toying with the idea of having sand have some effect on missiles and then later dropped that idea, leaving that remnant as the only clue. Supplement 3 then tacks on a 1 in 36 chance of sand disabling the missile, per 25mm sand cloud.

Book 5 then re-introduces sandcasters as a significant anti-missile weapon: "Missiles must achieve the to hit number (or greater) on two dice. If a hit is achieved, then sandcasters, beam weapons (laser and energy; each type uses the beam section), repulsors, and dampers must be penetrated ..." The table gives a single missile a 10 in 36 chance of missing (exclusive of computer, size or agility), and it gives a battery of sandcasters about a 1 in 6 chance of disabling an equal factor of missiles.

So, it varies from a 6 in 36 chance of a miss to a certain hit on intercept to a 10 in 36 chance of a miss, with the sand either increasing the chance of a miss to 10 in 36, having no effect at all, giving a 1 in 36 chance of a miss, or increasing the chance of a miss to roughly 14 in 36 (26/36 * 5/6 = 21.667/36).

It's interesting how they had such widely different views of how missiles and sandcasters should work.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of anti-missile missiles deploying titanium or depleted-uranium kinetic-kill pellets in a shotgun pattern at waves of incoming missiles.

There was an antimissile concept where the antimissile missile instead spun out a kind of metallic net, with the idea that the inbound missile would hit the net with about the same effect as if it had hit that shotgun pattern of pellets.

Your idea works best in Mayday, where there's already a rule for missiles intercepting missiles and you just need to do something like throw in a bonus to-hit for your shotgun-antimissile.

It works in High Guard too, just use the sandcaster table to determine the roll needed to penetrate the antimissile volley. Only trick there is you'd have to declare beforehand, perhaps in the Precombat Decision Step, how many of your missile batteries were loaded with antimissiles, but you'd have to introduce some method to do it without announcing it to the opponent before combat, since he shouldn't know which of your missile batteries were loaded with what until the shooting happened - knowledge beforehand might influence his choice of targets.

For Book 2, it doesn't really say that you can't shoot missiles at missiles. It just says missiles explode or take effect when they contact a target, and since missiles are moved about just like ships, it's conceivable you could maneuver a missile to intercept another missile. Iin that case, there's no difference between a specialized antimissile and any other missile and therefore no benefit in introducing a new missile type. Unless I've been misunderstanding that all these decades.

Along the lines of a true anti-laser sandcaster-missile, I would suggest a 1G1 engine just to get the sand clear of the ship and a warhead to disperse the cloud. This offers the advantage that for a few credits more per shot than a dedicated sandcaster, a ship can change 30 missile launchers into 30 sandcasters by simply reloading the missile racks. I think that sort of tactical flexibility would be useful ... offense when you want it and defense when you need it.

I like a versatile sand/missile launcher, never understood why they didn't do that in the first place. Sand canisters weigh the same as missiles in Book 2; given that the missiles are spacegoing and don't have to be specific dimensions to achieve aerodynamic ends, strikes me it wouldn't be terribly difficult to make a launcher that suited both.
 
Nice analysis Carlo, but you missed out the SS3 rule which is an ad on for LBB2 combat.

There are a few gems hidden in SS3 that should be included in LBB2 - sand affect on missiles, the radiation damage table, and finally the actual affect of a CREW result on the damage table ;)
 
Morning Carlobrand and atpollard,


Your analysis is correct:

Thanks for upgrading my summary of the rules and unproven guess to an analysis. At least I'm in the ball park or is that the ball park's parking lot.;)

Of course I did overlook the -3 DM for sand which is applied regardless of whether the attack is by laser or missile.

In Mayday, where a missile has about a 6 in 36 (1/6) chance of missing a ship (and where a missile can be shot at another missile with a 10/36 chance of hitting, which is a feature I liked), the sand gives the missile a -1 to its to-hit roll (effectively increasing the chance of a miss from 6 in 36 to 10 in 36).

In Book 2, where a hit is certain if the missile can intercept the ship, sand doesn't do anything to missiles. However, there's an awkwardly worded rule that states, "During the ordance launch phase, missiles or sand which contacted a target in the preceding movement phase now explode or take effect." There's nothing that describes what "effect" sand is supposed to have, and the idea of sand moving and contacting a laser beam is absurd, so I interpret that as meaning at one time they were toying with the idea of having sand have some effect on missiles and then later dropped that idea, leaving that remnant as the only clue. Supplement 3 then tacks on a 1 in 36 chance of sand disabling the missile, per 25mm sand cloud.

My take of the underlined sentence was that the sand particles comes into contact with or intercepts a laser beam. As I mentioned earlier I didn't connect the sand cloud -3 DM with missiles. Thanks Carlobrand for making me realize I had missed an important item Book 1 page 45 Ablat Body Armor is an ablative (vaporizing anti-laser) jacket.

I've always thought that sand should have some effect on anything that passes through the cloud. However, I didn't agree with the values used in Book 5, Book 2, Mayday, or Special Supplement 3. Unfortunately, I wasn't sure why I didn't agree until atpollard mentioned depleted uranium pellets which reminded me about something I read about in Star Carrier Book One: Earth Strike by Ian Douglas.

In the book the author describes "anti-missile shield ordnance that uses compressed depleted uranium micro pellets". The ordnance canister is launched by rail-gun which "pops dispersing the micro pellets a few thousand meters ahead of the firing ship as a fast-moving and expanding sand cloud." The micro pellet sand cloud "refracts lasers, absorbs particle beams, and explodes or ablate missiles."

From Book 2 sandcasters are designed as an anti-laser system based materials similar to the ablative body armor from CT Book 1. The sand particles, my best guess anyway, are made from material with a relatively low mass density that allows for quick vaporization that dissipates laser energy.

If Traveller's ablative sand material is of a lower density than the depleted uranium sand described by Ian Douglas my feeling is Book 5 HG is giving Traveller sand to much of a benefit at stopping a missile and the other sources are probably not giving enough.

Ian Douglas did mention that the ordnance had the downside of having the same effect on both friend and foe being caught by the sand cloud. Anything hit by a fast moving pellets has a good chance of being chewed up and destroyed.
 
Howdy Mike Wightman,

Nice analysis Carlo, but you missed out the SS3 rule which is an ad on for LBB2 combat.

There are a few gems hidden in SS3 that should be included in LBB2 - sand affect on missiles, the radiation damage table, and finally the actual affect of a CREW result on the damage table ;)

The Consolidated CT Errata v 0.7 replaces the SS3 Radiation Damage table, based on Book 2 Hit Locations table, the Book 5 HG Radiation Table to account for the use of armor ratings in HG. Unfortunately, there isn't any mention of how the notes below the SS3 Radiation Damage table for missiles and crew are handled in HG.

My best guess is that the Missile note is applied in the same manner to the HG Radiation Damage column which are Crew = Sensor destroyed, Computer = Controller destroyed, and Weapons = Warhead detonated.

I feel that the SS3 Crew Hits rule applies to a ship that is crewed by player characters since the hits are inflicted on one crew member determined randomly and unless someone has rolled up character statistics most ship's crews vaguely mentioned. In Book 2, pages 19-20, a 600-dton subsidized liner has a crew of nine: pilot, navigator, 3 engineers, 3 stewards, and 1 medic. Book 5 HG is even more vague since the crew calculations cover larger ships with expanded components.

Of course if the errata is not used with SS3 or SS3-R applies different rules then my comments are mote.

The Radiation Table in Book 5 HG appears to be a modified version of the small craft coulmn for the Hits Location table in Book 2 Starships.

Not having used Book 2 Space Comabt Rules
 
Hi atpollard,

I was actually thinking more along the lines of anti-missile missiles deploying titanium or depleted-uranium kinetic-kill pellets in a shotgun pattern at waves of incoming missiles.

Along the lines of a true anti-laser sandcaster-missile, I would suggest a 1G1 engine just to get the sand clear of the ship and a warhead to disperse the cloud. This offers the advantage that for a few credits more per shot than a dedicated sandcaster, a ship can change 30 missile launchers into 30 sandcasters by simply reloading the missile racks. I think that sort of tactical flexibility would be useful ... offense when you want it and defense when you need it.

Thanks for jogging my memory about Star Carrier Book One: Earth Strike by Ian Douglas.
 
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