CT Only: CT Subsector Navies

[Bartleby]

I'd like to flesh out the "subsector navy" for an adventure and to add some details to my CT OTU.

From the description in HG it appears the Subsector Navy operates under the purview of the Subsector Government. I like that as it allows me to add some colour to each subsector I detail.

Is there any more discussion of the role of the Subsector Navy in CT? I'd like to know how far I am veering from the published CT universe.

As an example, I imagine, in say 1105, Norris feels a war is imminent and has his Subsector Navy looking for Zho agents and sympathizers, while the Imperial Navy, under the Sector Duchess is more focused on, say, the Ine Givar. or some other perceived threat.

The Imperial Navy considers the Subsector Navy as a lesser arm of the military, and comprised of people who could not make it to the Imperial Navy.

The Subsector Navy considers themselves to be the front line on a frontier war, and since they come from the subsector, their families and homes are at risk. They view Imperial Navy as filled with outsiders, and bullies, who are more likely to retreat in any serious frontier battle as their homes are scattered around the Imperium.

I could have completely different uniforms and colours and fleets etc. All of this could be a backdrop while the characters deal with their own problems. Being "pulled over" by a red-uniformed naval officer could produce sighs of relief, as they are mostly looking for psi-capable and zhos. Unless one of them is psi, in which case you would rather not run into them etc.

I did notice in MT subsector fleets are considered explicitly part of the Imperial Naval and are called The Reserve. I am less fond of that idea for my purposes.

Has anyone seen anything else written on the topic, especially in CT?. I imagine my take is not a common one, and that is OK, but I would be interested in knowing if/where I might be contravening something that has already been written.

 

[whulorigan]

As an example, I imagine, in say 1105, Norris feels a war is imminent and has his Subsector Navy looking for Zho agents and sympathizers, while the Imperial Navy, under the Sector Duchess is more focused on, say, the Ine Givar. or some other perceived threat.

While the Subsector Navy reports directly to the Subsector Duke (though the Subsector Navy belongs to the subsector proper and are not the Duke's "personal" forces - the latter would be termed Huscarles), the Imperial Navy chain of command goes directly to the Emperor - the Sector Duchess as the local civilian Imperial Sector Governor works with the Imperial Navy Sector Admiral to get things done. So while the Sector Duchess does give direction to the Imperial Naval forces in her sector, they are not technically "under" her in the same way the Subsector Navy is under a Subsector Duke.

I did notice in MT subsector fleets are considered explicitly part of the Imperial Naval and are called The Reserve. I am less fond of that idea for my purposes.

Remember that in MT, due to the Rebellion, the Imperium is on a war-time footing, meaning that the Subsector Navies have been "Imperialized" and made part of the Imperial Reserve.

 

[Bartleby]

Thank you Wayne. I think I understand the specifics better.

While I would never let the OTU details get in the way of a good narrative, it sounds like there is some leeway I can leverage.

The general priorities of the two navies are set by the two rivals, and they can exist as two separate entities with separate cultures and perspectives.

I imagine I can have the attitudes/earnestness/approach of each subsector navy reflect the priorities of their respective Duke or Duchess.

I am imagining something like, to use Dune-phrases, a subsector navy ruled by a Duke Harkonnen might treat probable threats and upstart adventurers differently than one commanded by a Duke Atreides.

 

[mike wightman]

There is very little evidence of the existence of a subsector Navy tier within the Third Imperium.

The navy is organised as the regular IN and then in times of war they take command of the planetary navies which are then termed colonial forces.

Looking at The Fifth Frontier War boardgame initial set up you have the regular IN units and the planetary fleet units, but no subsector Navy tier.

When reserve forces finally enter the field after several turns the units are regular IN and numbered rather than named colonial fleets, these are the ships that have been conscripted and probably belong to the off board worlds.

Note also that there is no such official position as sector duke - every duke is appointed to rule a subsector in the name of the Emperor. The sector duke position is a first among equals position that exists only because of the tremendous economic and political might of the incumbent.

My own personal opinion is that subsector dukes with sufficient resources would operate a subsector Navy.

 

[Bartleby]

(snip some excellent information)

My own personal opinion is that subsector dukes with sufficient resources would operate a subsector Navy.

I agree. I admit I am pushing a design I arbitrarily decided would make a colourful backdrop, not necessarily the original intention of MM.

But HG does discuss Subsector Navies, and while I don't need any OTU source to design my own campaign, if I am playing in the OTU I prefer to color inside the lines, so to speak. I see more benefits to me as a referee with two ostensibly cooperating navies who are motivated with different priorities.

Note also that there is no such official position as sector duke - every duke is appointed to rule a subsector in the name of the Emperor. The sector duke position is a first among equals position that exists only because of the tremendous economic and political might of the incumbent.

Wow. I have had CT in my possession for 30+ years, and never really grokked that. Re-reading it carefully now I see that the books explain what you describe above.

That is good to know. So I guess, in my hypothetical 1105 Spinward Marches, I could have Norris run his Subsector Navy, ruthlessly hunting Zho agents and sympathizers. Meanwhile the Imperial Navy is being essentially commanded by a de facto Sector Duchess, who really has no de jure mandate.

After working 25 years in the corporate world, that feels more realistic. De facto influence is a common powerful thing and does not show up on any org charts.

Thank you both.

 

[whartung]

My own personal opinion is that subsector dukes with sufficient resources would operate a subsector Navy.

To what end?

Why have a subsector navy?

And what do the planetary navies do? I would think they'd be more like a Coast Guard. Local forces for inner system policing.

Even historically, I don't think things like coastal batteries here in the US were ever controlled locally by guard forces, but were nationalized under the federal system.

Mind, the US is not the Imperium.

I rather think that there would be named fleets assigned to subsectors at the Imperial level for local force projection, not sure why the Imperium would cede such control to the local Dukes. Did the Imperium actually trust the Dukes to manage high end firepower? Why would the Imperium allow a subsector to raise forces loyal to the Duke, and not, necessarily, the Imperium?

 

[Bartleby]

To what end?

Why have a subsector navy?

And what do the planetary navies do? I would think they'd be more like a Coast Guard. Local forces for inner system policing.

Even historically, I don't think things like coastal batteries here in the US were ever controlled locally by guard forces, but were nationalized under the federal system.

Mind, the US is not the Imperium.

I rather think that there would be named fleets assigned to subsectors at the Imperial level for local force projection, not sure why the Imperium would cede such control to the local Dukes. Did the Imperium actually trust the Dukes to manage high end firepower? Why would the Imperium allow a subsector to raise forces loyal to the Duke, and not, necessarily, the Imperium?

There all kinds of reasons. Certainly, a strong central Imperium might do exactly as you say, and shut down any local military.

If your Imperium is slightly more decentralized, the Emperor might leave certain responsibilities to the Duke to fund and raise his own local navy to handle.

In my particular example, and one I think I will use, the Imperial Navy in the Marches is running things BAU. Duke Norris feels the Zhos are up to something and is making demands that the Imperial Navy DO MORE. The local admiral, taking direction from a de facto sector duchess, is instead squashing false Ine Givar leads and claiming to busy doing lots when they appear to be doing nothing. So the Duke, who commands the local navy, has them focusing on finding spies. Both priorities (spies vs the Ine Givar) are the mandate of the Imperium and serve the Emperor.

I am not American, but I've noticed the dramatic tension in crime films or shows where a local law enforcement and federal law enforcement do not have the same priorities, but both claim to be upholding the same law.

I think subsector navies either fit or do not fit in your OTU depending on how you see your Imperium running.

 

[mike wightman]

They already allow dukes to raise household troops, a few ships to go out and patrol in the duke's name is an extension of that.

I also think there is a lot more conflict between subsector dukes than is realised. A duke becomes a sector duke by political manoeuvring, developing the largest economy, and brow beating his/her peers. I think a bit of trade war between subsectors would fit right into the setting - which is one of my explanations for how piracy can exist within the Third Imperium, how pirates have a custom built ship class, and how they have a rank structure and pension benefits

Planetary navy ships belong to their home planet, not the subsector duke. The duke of Regina doesn't actually rule Regina, and the planetary navy ships of the Regina Navy answer to the Regina government, not the duke.

Going by the events of the FFW Norris, even as a duke, could not give orders to IN fleets beyond his IN rank until he got hold of the Imperial Warrant to take over as sector admiral.

 

[vegas]

There is very little evidence of the existence of a subsector Navy tier within the Third Imperium.

Huh? I think there is pretty strong evidence in B5. For example

The Navy is the primary star-faring armed force; its duties include the maintenance of peace and order throughout the spacelanes of the Imperium. Subsector and planetary forces assume such part of this burden as they are capable.

The naval forces within the lmperium are divided into three general categories lmperial forces, devoted to the central ruling lmperium and answering only to it; subsector forces, which patrol their individual subsectors, filling the gaps that the lmperial forces cannot handle;...

These quotes are then reflected in CharGen where you roll to see which type of navy you enlist in: Imperial, Subsector, or Planetary navy.

If you want to use FFW board game as Traveller canon, probably best to explain how subsector fleets are integrated in the FFW naming convention rather than trying to say they don't exist in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. (For example, subsector fleets take the subsector capital as their name, or they get a number so you cant easily distinguish them from Imperial fleets, or maybe they split up and lead/stiffen the planetary fleets - you choose which approach you like.)

The general priorities of the two navies are set by the two rivals, and they can exist as two separate entities with separate cultures and perspectives....

@Bartleby, IMHO this is right on and good fodder for some conflict/drama.

 

[Garnfellow]

There is very little evidence of the existence of a subsector Navy tier within the Third Imperium.

I just re-read "The Battle Fleets of the Marches" from JTAS 9 and it is striking that there's only limited discussion of organization beyond regular and colonial squadrons. Squadrons can be organized into fleets, "the basic maneuver unit for naval action," but I'm not sure the article uses the familiar High Guard terms of planetary, subsector, and sector navies. Strange since Marc wrote both sources.

 

[Condottiere]

If I understand the structure of the Imperium Navy correctly, supposedly each subsector has a numbered fleet, with a corresponding reserve fleet who's ships are occasionally taken out of mothballs to train the reservists, probably as a sort of ready pool to bolster mainline squadrons, and/or replace destroyed ships.

Their immediate command and control seems to pass through the local nobility, perhaps a way to commission their progeny without exposing them to the normal hardships of the Imperium Navy, and giving them an additional proxy for control.

Planetary navies would be more for local security, and perhaps patrolling of nearby empty hexes, since interstellar expansionism is frowned upon.

 

[mike wightman]

Huh? I think there is pretty strong evidence in B5. For example

Care must be taken not to confuse the generic rules in HG with the actual setting.

In the Third Imperium setting the subsector navy tier is absent - I can find no setting source rather than a generic rulebook

The Third Imperium setting did not use the Traveller rules as written to describe it in every detail. It wasn't until LBB:6 that we have a core rule book that is written specifically for the Third Imperium setting.

These quotes are then reflected in CharGen where you roll to see which type of navy you enlist in: Imperial, Subsector, or Planetary navy.

Show me an example of a character from the subsector navy in an adventure or supplement.

If you want to use FFW board game as Traveller canon, probably best to explain how subsector fleets are integrated in the FFW naming convention rather than trying to say they don't exist in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. (For example, subsector fleets take the subsector capital as their name, or they get a number so you cant easily distinguish them from Imperial fleets, or maybe they split up and lead/stiffen the planetary fleets - you choose which approach you like.)

The FFW game is based on the setting and thus describes the setting, rather than the rpg rules which are not always reflected in the setting.

 

[mike wightman]

If I understand the structure of the Imperium Navy correctly, supposedly each subsector has a numbered fleet, with a corresponding reserve fleet who's ships are occasionally taken out of mothballs to train the reservists, probably as a sort of ready pool to bolster mainline squadrons, and/or replace destroyed ships.

That was the MT way of doing things which is not the same as how things were done pre-FFW as detailed in S:9 and FFW.

 

[vegas]

The Third Imperium setting did not use the Traveller rules as written to describe it in every detail. It wasn't until LBB:6 that we have a core rule book that is written specifically for the Third Imperium setting.

B6 is about the setting by B5 isn't? That is convenient to your argument but seems like a special pleading. The "Imperium" in the quotes I mentioned isn't the "Third Imperium" its some other generic imperium? Really?

Show me an example of a character from the subsector navy in an adventure or supplement.

I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of adventures to try, but I have three retorts: 1) absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, 2) can you show an example of a planetary navy character? mostly just curious, 3) In addition to B5, S9:FS also explicitly references subsector and planetary navies; is that book not describing the setting either? (Seems hard to believe reading the introduction to S9)

EDIT: oops, I missed your reply to condo. So we agree S9 is describing the setting... S9 tells us there are subsector navies just like B5. Case closed? I think so...

 

[Bartleby]

S9 tells us there are subsector navies just like B5. Case closed? I think so...

Holy cow, there is a passing reference to subsector navies. Very cool. I didn't realize that was there. Sweet.

Mike's larger point has some merit. There is very little mention of the subsector navies. But S9 does mention them, so that is interesting.

I believe I will take this and run with it.

Really there is enough there (and missing) that a referee could go in either direction. You can do what I am doing and give every Duke a local navy that shows up when convenient and is always causing trouble (or providing assistance). Or you can decide that does not make sense and make the Subsector Navy a a possible small exception, and allow a small force for a few Dukes that very rarely or ever shows up in your campaign.

The beauty of Classic Traveller. The referee's canvas to paint.

Thank you all for you support in my edification of the Imperium.

 

[whulorigan]

But keep in mind, both FFW and the Rebellion are wartime, not peacetime footings. The Subsector navies during a wartime footing may in fact have been "absorbed" into Reserve units of some sort (perhaps even individual subsector squadrons being assigned to a reserve fleet or fleets and given an Imperial Reserve Fleet number . . .

In the USA, National Guard Troops belong to particular states overseen by the State Governors; but during wartime, they can come under Federal jurisdiction and units can get called up with the Reserves and even see overseas duty in some cases.

 

[mike wightman]

B6 is about the setting by B5 isn't? That is convenient to your argument but seems like a special pleading. The "Imperium" in the quotes I mentioned isn't the "Third Imperium" its some other generic imperium? Really?

Correct - the Imperium of LBB4 and LBB5 is a placeholder, the details of the Third Imperium are slowly revealed through JTAS, Supplements and Adventures. LBB^ Is the first rule book that is written specifically for the Third Imperium setting.
There were two versions of LBB5 - which is correct for the setting?

I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of adventures to try, but I have three retorts: 1) absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,

Provide evidence that there is a subsector tier whithin the Third Imperium setting, I can provide evidence there is not.

2) can you show an example of a planetary navy character? mostly just curious,

I will go and check but off the top of my head I can't think of one, but there is evidence of planetary navy ships and squadrons, so there is a planetary navy tier.

3) In addition to B5, S9:FS also explicitly references subsector and planetary navies; is that book not describing the setting either? (Seems hard to believe reading the introduction to S9)

The introduction for S9 mentions naval bases being use for Imperial fleets and vessels from subsector and planetary navies. It does not say that those are Third Imperial subsector forces, it could mean bases for polities such as the Darrians who have no more than a subsector navy.

EDIT: oops, I missed your reply to condo. So we agree S9 is describing the setting... S9 tells us there are subsector navies just like B5. Case closed? I think so...

Nope, not closed until you can show an actual tier of subsector forces rather than an easily explainable sentence.

And just to be clear - I originally stated there is very little evidence for subsector navies, I didn't say there was none. I personally include a ducal subsector navy.

Where is the Regina subsector Navy? It isn't mentioned in FFW or JTAS News bulletins set during the war. Why is there no Regina Fleet counter to represent the Regina Subsector Navy ships being collected together when Imperialised?

 

[mike wightman]

But keep in mind, both FFW and the Rebellion are wartime, not peacetime footings. The Subsector navies during a wartime footing may in fact have been "absorbed" into Reserve units of some sort (perhaps even individual subsector squadrons being assigned to a reserve fleet or fleets and given an Imperial Reserve Fleet number . . .

I agree, since we know planetary navies are Imperialised it would make sense to Imperialise the subsector Navy too, If it were up to me I would make a Regina Fleet counter for FFW.

 

[mike wightman]

Holy cow, there is a passing reference to subsector navies. Very cool. I didn't realize that was there. Sweet.

Mike's larger point has some merit. There is very little mention of the subsector navies. But S9 does mention them, so that is interesting.

Little evidence is a sentence that can be explained as meaning the subsector navies of other client polities.

I believe I will take this and run with it.

Really there is enough there (and missing) that a referee could go in either direction. You can do what I am doing and give every Duke a local navy that shows up when convenient and is always causing trouble (or providing assistance). Or you can decide that does not make sense and make the Subsector Navy a a possible small exception, and allow a small force for a few Dukes that very rarely or ever shows up in your campaign.

The beauty of Classic Traveller. The referee's canvas to paint.

Thank you all for you support in my edification of the Imperium.

I agree with you, the existence of a subsector navy under the direct control of the subsectot duke opens up a lot more possibilities for shenanigans.

My take on the Third Imperial setting was/is heavily influenced by Dune, and as such rival noble houses are often at odds - sponsoring cross border mercenary operations, inciting trade wars in a rival's subsector, providing letters of marque for said trade wars. A ducal navy along with household troops allow for these frontier idiots to compete with each other - hence the eventual rise to power of a sector duke.

The regular IN only gets involved if the economy of the Imperium is threatened, so as long as the rivals go so far and no further they will not trigger Imperial intervention.

 

[Condottiere]

While a subsector duke might have nominal command of the subsector/reserve fleet, control probably flows through a Defense bureau.