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CT+?

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Thank God Sigg seems to agree with me. The simplest solution is to ignore computers (until they get AI) and use the dtons for sensors. Junk the programming and use the Book 5 to-hit tables.
For the record, I agree as well.
"Computer" = Complete electronic suite. Sensors, ECM, Long-Range comms and what have you. This solution requires only minimal modification of Book 5 (mainly in the computer required for jump thing) and leaves all canon designs untouched. It is elegant, it mirrors modern warship electronic size distributions and it is much more believable than any alternative I could conceive.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Thank God Sigg seems to agree with me. The simplest solution is to ignore computers (until they get AI) and use the dtons for sensors. Junk the programming and use the Book 5 to-hit tables.
For the record, I agree as well.
"Computer" = Complete electronic suite. Sensors, ECM, Long-Range comms and what have you. This solution requires only minimal modification of Book 5 (mainly in the computer required for jump thing) and leaves all canon designs untouched. It is elegant, it mirrors modern warship electronic size distributions and it is much more believable than any alternative I could conceive.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Thanks for the encouragement, Tobias.

I see the bridge computer as an array of processors responsible for maneuver, navigation and security. There is also a "backbone" that links those processors, the sensors, communications, engineering, LSS, and the bridge interfaces.

To ad more "flavor" the bridge interface becomes more sophisticated at higher tech levels. The interface is generally standard on computers at the appropriate TL, no extra cost. They were first introduced on big dedicated machines, +1 TL on ship and office computers, +2 TL on personal computers, +3 TL on handheld computers. (ie, at TL 13 your Ships computer may be an AI, and you're pocket PDA would have an Artificial Personality.

Punchcards & teletype TL5

Keyboard & CRT TL6-

Verbal Interface (TL7) Just uses verbal commands and spoken responses instead of the keyboard. Think classic Star Trek. I used maritime protocals to prevent mistakes from misinterpreted orders (if it works shouting orders in a gale, it should work for a dumb machine on a quiet bridge.)
For example, "Shut down engines"
"Shut down power plant, aye"
"Belay that! Secure the MANEUVER drive."
"Secure maneuver drive, aye."
pause
"Maneuver drive is secured"

Artificial Personality (TL9) Adds social amenities, but may not always be appropriate (like the ship in Hitch Hikers Guide). Seldom used for crew functions, but often for PDA.
"Good morning, Ms Vanaprul, this is the morning of your seventh day on "The Duchess of Regina", and thank you for choosing Tukhera lines, the safest way to travel in the Spinward Marches. Breakfast is now being served in the lounge, or a continental breakfast can be sent to your room. The Captain asked me to tell you that we did not come out of jump as expected last night, and that may cause some inconvenience. Have a GREAT day."

Artificial Intelligence TL12 The computer is aware of it's environment and can draw conclusions and make appropriate choices, but, like an idiot savant, only in some areas. Like Hal 9000, "We have a problem in engineering. I know we have been using it heavily, but following the guidelines programmed at the last overhaul, I am shutting down the maneuver drive for repairs." With expert systems (and sometimes a manipulator or robot) installed it can act as a crewman in an emergency at a skill level 1/2 the expert program.

Self Aware TL 14 We are talking about a full silicon-germanium NPC here. Its feelings can be hurt (although it also has professionalism) and with social skills even. "When I was fixing the coolant leak after the Pirates chased us, I saw some suspicious tool marks on the fittings. Captain, I know the manager of Smithson's Shiprights is a friend of yours, but the pirates may have bribed one of his techs. I suggest we get our repairs done in a different yard this time." A self aware computer can take full advantage of Expert systems, and may or may not pass port clearance regulations as a crewman.

At TL16 we can have fully automated ships.

You can also buy "expert systems" that will assist a player with specialist knowledge and proceedures.
If the PC has no expertise in that field but a basic understanding of the tools and equipment (i.e. a Engineer trying to Navigate, etc), he can perform as if he had a skill of 1/2 the program level. If the character has at least one level of the appropriate skill he can use his skill or the programs skill, whichever is higher.
TL applies to engineering programs: -1 for ecery 2 TL higher, -1 for every 3 TL lower. I.e., a +2 TL10 program is +1 with a TL12 or TL13 drive, no help with a TL14+. A +2 TL14 pogram is only +1 with an old TL8-11 drive

Price varied. Ship skills were about a 100KCr/level.
 
Thanks for the encouragement, Tobias.

I see the bridge computer as an array of processors responsible for maneuver, navigation and security. There is also a "backbone" that links those processors, the sensors, communications, engineering, LSS, and the bridge interfaces.

To ad more "flavor" the bridge interface becomes more sophisticated at higher tech levels. The interface is generally standard on computers at the appropriate TL, no extra cost. They were first introduced on big dedicated machines, +1 TL on ship and office computers, +2 TL on personal computers, +3 TL on handheld computers. (ie, at TL 13 your Ships computer may be an AI, and you're pocket PDA would have an Artificial Personality.

Punchcards & teletype TL5

Keyboard & CRT TL6-

Verbal Interface (TL7) Just uses verbal commands and spoken responses instead of the keyboard. Think classic Star Trek. I used maritime protocals to prevent mistakes from misinterpreted orders (if it works shouting orders in a gale, it should work for a dumb machine on a quiet bridge.)
For example, "Shut down engines"
"Shut down power plant, aye"
"Belay that! Secure the MANEUVER drive."
"Secure maneuver drive, aye."
pause
"Maneuver drive is secured"

Artificial Personality (TL9) Adds social amenities, but may not always be appropriate (like the ship in Hitch Hikers Guide). Seldom used for crew functions, but often for PDA.
"Good morning, Ms Vanaprul, this is the morning of your seventh day on "The Duchess of Regina", and thank you for choosing Tukhera lines, the safest way to travel in the Spinward Marches. Breakfast is now being served in the lounge, or a continental breakfast can be sent to your room. The Captain asked me to tell you that we did not come out of jump as expected last night, and that may cause some inconvenience. Have a GREAT day."

Artificial Intelligence TL12 The computer is aware of it's environment and can draw conclusions and make appropriate choices, but, like an idiot savant, only in some areas. Like Hal 9000, "We have a problem in engineering. I know we have been using it heavily, but following the guidelines programmed at the last overhaul, I am shutting down the maneuver drive for repairs." With expert systems (and sometimes a manipulator or robot) installed it can act as a crewman in an emergency at a skill level 1/2 the expert program.

Self Aware TL 14 We are talking about a full silicon-germanium NPC here. Its feelings can be hurt (although it also has professionalism) and with social skills even. "When I was fixing the coolant leak after the Pirates chased us, I saw some suspicious tool marks on the fittings. Captain, I know the manager of Smithson's Shiprights is a friend of yours, but the pirates may have bribed one of his techs. I suggest we get our repairs done in a different yard this time." A self aware computer can take full advantage of Expert systems, and may or may not pass port clearance regulations as a crewman.

At TL16 we can have fully automated ships.

You can also buy "expert systems" that will assist a player with specialist knowledge and proceedures.
If the PC has no expertise in that field but a basic understanding of the tools and equipment (i.e. a Engineer trying to Navigate, etc), he can perform as if he had a skill of 1/2 the program level. If the character has at least one level of the appropriate skill he can use his skill or the programs skill, whichever is higher.
TL applies to engineering programs: -1 for ecery 2 TL higher, -1 for every 3 TL lower. I.e., a +2 TL10 program is +1 with a TL12 or TL13 drive, no help with a TL14+. A +2 TL14 pogram is only +1 with an old TL8-11 drive

Price varied. Ship skills were about a 100KCr/level.
 
For ship AIs, I would like to see a closer adherence to established TL barriers and terminology. For example "Emotion simulation" instead of "Artificial Personality", and with the breakthroughs at TLs in capabilities 8,9,12,13,16.
Also, I think it advisable to keep the term "self aware" out of this. What exactly makes someone "self aware" and whether this state actually exists is still subject to a lot of debate (and IMHO always will be.)
For all practical purposes, a "high autonomous" brain by Book 8 is as capable of making decisions as a human being is. However, even though its decisions may seem creative and spontaneous, it is still bound to its programming. It cannot "rebel" against its basic parameters, but it can definitely have "social skills" if it is programmed for it.
Fully automated ships are, if you take book 8 seriously, already possible at TL 13. A high autonomous computer can easily function as a CO, and Master/slave configurations can take care of all routine ship functions.
Of course, the question remains how much automation you want to have. Voice-recognition for a lot of functions is easily possible today - but often not used because it is preferred for a human to manually control certain systems.

Regards,

Tobias
 
For ship AIs, I would like to see a closer adherence to established TL barriers and terminology. For example "Emotion simulation" instead of "Artificial Personality", and with the breakthroughs at TLs in capabilities 8,9,12,13,16.
Also, I think it advisable to keep the term "self aware" out of this. What exactly makes someone "self aware" and whether this state actually exists is still subject to a lot of debate (and IMHO always will be.)
For all practical purposes, a "high autonomous" brain by Book 8 is as capable of making decisions as a human being is. However, even though its decisions may seem creative and spontaneous, it is still bound to its programming. It cannot "rebel" against its basic parameters, but it can definitely have "social skills" if it is programmed for it.
Fully automated ships are, if you take book 8 seriously, already possible at TL 13. A high autonomous computer can easily function as a CO, and Master/slave configurations can take care of all routine ship functions.
Of course, the question remains how much automation you want to have. Voice-recognition for a lot of functions is easily possible today - but often not used because it is preferred for a human to manually control certain systems.

Regards,

Tobias
 
I tend to ignore book 8. It came out after I had worked out the "house rules" posted above.

I probably should pay more attention to it. Certainly a new CT+ canon should.
 
I tend to ignore book 8. It came out after I had worked out the "house rules" posted above.

I probably should pay more attention to it. Certainly a new CT+ canon should.
 
At TL12, a single computer chip (or whatever the unit of processing circuitry is at TL12) might be able to do 10,000 times as many things 10,000 times faster than current computers.

So, if a custom single-chip microcontroller today can fly a craft, serve HTML pages, operate an 802.11 transceiver, and track a bogey at the same time, and do so for a decade between reboots (Linux), then a computer at TL12 could conceivably fly a craft and monitor, say, 10,000 internally and externally sensed units, including asteroids, other ships, people, and subsystems of varying complexity and varying telemetry, perhaps with a classifier system identifying setpoints and monitoring rules for each thing being monitored, and run "forever" without a reboot.

So I could agree that computers take up space that is below the threshold of our level of abstraction for this game.

I also think the CT prices happen to be fine, if computers are used for combat in a Book 2 fashion. Otherwise ignore the price.

On the other hand, I could just as happily handwave into existence hardware that would make that computer more secure or hardened. Cables, shielding, and even a room with a human interface for maintenance or root access. As well as bi-weekly or monthly downtime maintenance.

If Marc wants ships to have a little more room, then I think computers in T5 will be invisible and ubiquitous.

Please include the cooling needed and reasonable access for the rarely needed mainenance.

The cooling problem in general "has been solved" by Kim Stanley Robinson in his Red/Green/Blue Mars trilogy.
 
At TL12, a single computer chip (or whatever the unit of processing circuitry is at TL12) might be able to do 10,000 times as many things 10,000 times faster than current computers.

So, if a custom single-chip microcontroller today can fly a craft, serve HTML pages, operate an 802.11 transceiver, and track a bogey at the same time, and do so for a decade between reboots (Linux), then a computer at TL12 could conceivably fly a craft and monitor, say, 10,000 internally and externally sensed units, including asteroids, other ships, people, and subsystems of varying complexity and varying telemetry, perhaps with a classifier system identifying setpoints and monitoring rules for each thing being monitored, and run "forever" without a reboot.

So I could agree that computers take up space that is below the threshold of our level of abstraction for this game.

I also think the CT prices happen to be fine, if computers are used for combat in a Book 2 fashion. Otherwise ignore the price.

On the other hand, I could just as happily handwave into existence hardware that would make that computer more secure or hardened. Cables, shielding, and even a room with a human interface for maintenance or root access. As well as bi-weekly or monthly downtime maintenance.

If Marc wants ships to have a little more room, then I think computers in T5 will be invisible and ubiquitous.

Please include the cooling needed and reasonable access for the rarely needed mainenance.

The cooling problem in general "has been solved" by Kim Stanley Robinson in his Red/Green/Blue Mars trilogy.
 
Robject, don't forget the 3I bureaucracy. Computer racks are now required to have 36" of space behind and in front of them for cooling and access. I don't see this changing in something as conservative as a Vilani Imperium. And, what about all those non-human types? They might need even more room....
file_28.gif
 
Robject, don't forget the 3I bureaucracy. Computer racks are now required to have 36" of space behind and in front of them for cooling and access. I don't see this changing in something as conservative as a Vilani Imperium. And, what about all those non-human types? They might need even more room....
file_28.gif
 
Right, room will generally not be related to the hardware at all, but more likely be related to environmental or man/machine interface issues.

While I'm a great proponent of Vilani bureaucracy, it feels unlikely in this case. I'm not sure why I feel that way; perhaps because volume is so precious in small starships and vehicles.
 
Right, room will generally not be related to the hardware at all, but more likely be related to environmental or man/machine interface issues.

While I'm a great proponent of Vilani bureaucracy, it feels unlikely in this case. I'm not sure why I feel that way; perhaps because volume is so precious in small starships and vehicles.
 
You might need 36" behind the rack. But if the ship's computer takes up less than one rack, it still becomes insignificant.

And the man/machine interface is called "the bridge".
 
You might need 36" behind the rack. But if the ship's computer takes up less than one rack, it still becomes insignificant.

And the man/machine interface is called "the bridge".
 
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