Cybernetics and Virus

[E.D.Quibell]

Yup, we are stuck with it.

And nowhere in canon is it even hinted that virus is some sort of psionic entity.

and nowhere in canon does it say that they are not.

Go read it - pretty good adventure actually.

I have done thanks.

And still I ask "How are they going to etch their circuit patterns onto blank silicon?"

Now would that be dry etching or wet etching? and are they multiple wafers for trasistor density that by some highly implauable and improbable mirrical fall together in exactly the right way, or just one very long slice?

Lets discount wet etching, and Lithography for that matter, because there are no nanometer thin masks for the printing of the circuit or desolving of the slice in patters other than just exposing or disolving the whole thing. Throw a drop of acid at a silicon crystal the size of an intel core processor and see how many transistors you can etch into it.

Now lets say that on cymberline you can get the right gas mixture for dry etching and by some highly implauable and improbable mirical there these can be plasma(ed) and/or then naturally manipulated so the ions can etch the silicon in meaningfull ways.

How is virus going to find the right gasses in the computer on your desk to be able to etch more and/or different pathways/transistors in a CPU that already has millions of transistors etched into it and a high test yeild % failue rate?

Except that configurable processors exist now.

I know thanks.

But to say that every CPU in the Imperium is configurable, is implausable.

Virus being psionc in a Universe that has psionics is far more plausable.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

Sorry but no way is it a disembodied psionic life form - no such thing exists in the OTU and by your own past arguments making something like that up stretches the 'believability' of the setting to breaking point.

Only if you don't accept psionics as a valid phenomenon. And canon most emphatically does accept psionics as a valid phenomenon.

Virus can be explained by real world science with a bit of creative thinking without having to resort to spiritualist nonsense.

No, it can't. Some of its abilities are physically impossible. The only way to explain them are as some sort of magic, and psionics is the magic of the Traveller Universe.


Hans

 

[aramis]

No, just no.

Virus is not psionic, and if you read the original write up of cymberline chips it is made explicit that they can write their circuit patterns onto each other and blank silicon.

WRONG.

The original writeup makes it clear the virus does NOT require cymbaline chips to rewrite itself onto extant chipsets without benefit of motile chipsets. Note that it also creates cymbaline chip functionality once it's infested a computer, and it's implied strongly that cymballine chips are in fact the requisite hardware, but it doesn't actually require them in order to infest the computer without being

The only ways a non-cymballine chip becomes a cymballine chip are either by being overwritten by a motile chip (see Adv 13: Signal GK), or by psionically being twisted into being a cymballine chip by use of TK or a special power.

And since Zhodani, Vargr, Hiver, K'Kree, and Solomani shipping (none of which had routinely adopted the cymballine chips) are subject to being virused by radio, that means that the virus must be making cyballine chips using radio as a focus for a special power.

Making virus psionic is one fantasy element too far in my opinion, and one that isn't needed to explain how they function.

The better explanation is that the computer chips in Imperial hardware are indeed configurable, and that virus makes use of this to reprogram the chips in line with their own code. Much the same way as an organic virus reprograms the genetic material of a host cell.

They can do it to any computer of sufficient complexity... NOT JUST IMPERIAL ONES. The code executes on any computer - an impossibility unless it rewires it in the process, and I find computer compatibility across known space to be MUCH MORE fantastic than Virus being a strain of psionic SDG chip capable of replication by radio-focused telekinetic etching of the SDG circuitry.

Further, the SDG chips responsible for the virus are not available to the 3I until the early 1100's. Compatible chips are unlikely.

Virus pretty much has to be psionic, or one needs to throw out the rules about being able to spread itself to non-SDG Transponder equipped ships.

 

[mike wightman]

WRONG.

Actually, I'm correct. I'm talking about the abilities of the cymberline chips to copy themselves/predate others.

Virus is a weaponised version that was originally designed to affect the deyo chip installed in transponders that were magically retconned into existing in Imperial ships and their trade partners.

The original writeup makes it clear the virus does NOT require cymbaline chips to rewrite itself onto extant chipsets without benefit of motile chipsets. Note that it also creates cymbaline chip functionality once it's infested a computer, and it's implied strongly that cymballine chips are in fact the requisite hardware, but it doesn't actually require them in order to infest the computer without being

Correct.

Once Virus was released (early - not fully tested) it was able to subvert much more than just the deyo chip.

The only ways a non-cymballine chip becomes a cymballine chip are either by being overwritten by a motile chip (see Adv 13: Signal GK), or by psionically being twisted into being a cymballine chip by use of TK or a special power.

Does an organic virus require a psionic componenent to re-write the DNA of an infected cell?

IMHO the Virus does the same thing to computer architecture - it reconfigures it.

And since Zhodani, Vargr, Hiver, K'Kree, and Solomani shipping (none of which had routinely adopted the cymballine chips) are subject to being virused by radio, that means that the virus must be making cyballine chips using radio as a focus for a special power.

according to canon they were forced to adopt the chips for ships trading with the Imperium. Trouble is the Virus went beyond it's originally intended parameters.

They can do it to any computer of sufficient complexity... NOT JUST IMPERIAL ONES. The code executes on any computer - an impossibility unless it rewires it in the process, and I find computer compatibility across known space to be MUCH MORE fantastic than Virus being a strain of psionic SDG chip capable of replication by radio-focused telekinetic etching of the SDG circuitry.

Really?

So jump drives are different between races, fusion plants are different, grav plates are different etc? No similarity at all between races?

We don't know what the computer architecture of the OTU is based on, but here in the real world I don't see much variety in the actual physics underlying the machines we have today. They all work along the same principles.

Further, the SDG chips responsible for the virus are not available to the 3I until the early 1100's. Compatible chips are unlikely.

Wrong - deyo transponders were mandatory from 1088.

Virus pretty much has to be psionic, or one needs to throw out the rules about being able to spread itself to non-SDG Transponder equipped ships.

Nope, you just have to think about what it really is - it is software that can reprogram configurable computer architecture.

 

[aramis]

The abilities it has - to rewrite ANY chip via radio contact, not just the SDG transponder (WHich was NOT used extra-imperially) is beyond belief. It's F*ING IMPOSSIBLE without magic. Psionics is the only magic sufficiently advanced to justify the otherwise impossible nature of the Virus' propagation.

IT BREAKS PHYSICS IF IT WORKS AS WRITTEN.

The only acceptable way to do that is psionics or jumpspace artifacts.

Sorry Mike, but you're dead wrong on this one.

Even the wild chip is beyond improbable. Right there to "psionics needed to make it not violate physics and chemistry" level.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Actually, I'm correct. I'm talking about the abilities of the cymberline chips to copy themselves/predate others.

How? Any remotley plausable real physics based process will do.

Does an organic virus require a psionic componenent to re-write the DNA of an infected cell?

Irelivent. We are not talking about carbon based lifeforms, we are talking about silicon intergraded circuit based life forms. Any parreles are just that, useful for analogies but not for explination of physical phonomina.

Really?

So jump drives are different between races, fusion plants are different, grav plates are different etc? No similarity at all between races?

And do you belive that these are the same across chartered space? As an _analogy_, how many ways are there to build a dwelling on the Earth today? We might call them all "Houses" and they might all perform the same function, using very simmilar material, but do you really think that a sub saharan african skilled in the creation of mud huts would have any chance in building a self cleaning glass penthouse on a skyscraper in Manhattern?

So we call them the same thing, they provide the same function, in a simmilar way, and they are all completly different. Works for me.

We don't know what the computer architecture of the OTU is based on, but here in the real world I don't see much variety in the actual physics underlying the machines we have today. They all work along the same principles.

Yes we do. It's a silicon based intergraded circuit based architecture much like we have today. Otherwsie we wouldn't he having this discussion about how virus works. I agree they would be all based on the same principles, however having said that please see my "we might call them "Houses"" paragraph above.

Nope, you just have to think about what it really is - it is software that can reprogram configurable computer architecture.

If all the computers in chartered space were the same, and if they were all configurable, and if they all ran the same OS, then virus as you state it is posible. However if you accept the above to be true then you must also accept that virus is defeatable with just software.

Having said that my if/then/else above statment is highly implausable, in fact to me it is so significantly less plausable than virus being psionic.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[epicenter00]

And since Zhodani, Vargr, Hiver, K'Kree, and Solomani shipping (none of which had routinely adopted the cymballine chips) are subject to being virused by radio, that means that the virus must be making cyballine chips using radio as a focus for a special power.

Wait, iirc in Survival Margin didn't it say that most powers did actually suffer (in particular the Vargr, Hivers, and Solomani) because they all did sufficient trade with the Imperium that they were using the SDG transponders (which were cymballine-based)? The Zhodani got out of it because the (future) Regency warned them.

 

[mike wightman]

The abilities it has - to rewrite ANY chip via radio contact, not just the SDG transponder (WHich was NOT used extra-imperially)

Please check your sources before stating this as fact.

Challenge 64 page 46:

"The SDG circuits were also exported vigourously...

Many governments, particularly the Aslan, Vargr, Zhodani, Sword Worlds and Solomani, adopted the system for themselves...

By 1116, the deyo circuit was ubiquitous within the Imperium and along its frontiers, and was well represented even at the core of K'kree and Hiver space."

is beyond belief. It's F*ING IMPOSSIBLE without magic. Psionics is the only magic sufficiently advanced to justify the otherwise impossible nature of the Virus' propagation.

IT BREAKS PHYSICS IF IT WORKS AS WRITTEN.

The only acceptable way to do that is psionics or jumpspace artifacts.

Sorry Mike, but you're dead wrong on this one.

I'm wrong because I disagree with you? Shouting and swearing - tut tut - where's the report button (joke before anyone takes it seriously - English sense of humour)

By your argument jump drive is psionic, acceleration compensation is psionic, thruster plates are psionic, meson guns, meson screens, nuclear dampers, black globes - all psionic.

Even the wild chip is beyond improbable. Right there to "psionics needed to make it not violate physics and chemistry" level.

Now here I agree with you - the cymberline chip is impossible at our level of understanding of physics and chemistry. But if I'm going to accept it as physically and chemically possible in the OTU I want a pseudo-science explanation for Virus as well that doesn't rely on - it's psionic, the ancients did it, Cthulhu willed it to be

Think of it this way.

Ever updated the bios of your computer?

Or installed a new web browser or operating system?

Downloaded a new app for an iphone etc...

Software has been able to reconfigure hardware for a long time now.

I think you are missing the main point of my argument - Virus is possible because the computer architecture of the Imperium is configurable.

 

[shield]

The imperial transponders gave Virus an entrance to other races ship systems because of trade but it did spread through the rest of their systems - after a short delay whilst the virus worked out how the new system worked. Even worlds deep in the heart of alien territory fell to virus.

 

[rancke]

I think you are missing the main point of my argument - Virus is possible because the computer architecture of the Imperium is configurable.

So the a simple way to guard against Virus and regain a high civilization is to build non-configurable computers? Something like Vilani expert systems, perhaps?

No, wait, it's even simpler. Just program your configurable computer to make sure no input data is executable. Too bad the pre-Collapse militaries never saw the need to do that.



Hans

 

[mike wightman]

So the a simple way to guard against Virus and regain a high civilization is to build non-configurable computers? Something like Vilani expert systems, perhaps?

No, wait, it's even simpler. Just program your configurable computer to make sure no input data is executable. Too bad the pre-Collapse militaries never saw the need to do that.



Hans

You mean like they started to do in the RC and Regency?

 

[rancke]

You mean like they started to do in the RC and Regency?

No, I mean, 'too bad the pre-Collapse militaries never saw the need to do that'. As in "talk about incredible". I also alluded to canonical Vilani computer architecture, which is explicitly not configurable. It's one of the defining characteristics.


Hans

 

[rancke]

By your argument jump drive is psionic, acceleration compensation is psionic, thruster plates are psionic, meson guns, meson screens, nuclear dampers, black globes - all psionic.

No, the argument is that Virus is not explicable by known physical laws AND is explicable as psionic, since Virus has the requisite cognitive aspects that are needed to invoke psionic features. Two different criteria that BOTH apply. If jump drives, grav technology, thruster plates, meson tech, nuclear dampers, and black globes could likewise be explained by invoking psionics, they too could be psionic. But they aren't, so they're not. However, what of it? Your argument seems to be that if the same explanation doesn't work for every one of these extraordinary technological features then it won't work for any. But that does not follow.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Point me in the direction of real physical laws that can explain the magic tech I listed.

You can't.

Can they be explained as psionics?

Yes.

Therefore the psionic explanation that you espouse for explaining technology that can not be explained by real world physics is the only explanation. Therefore all technology in the OTU that can't be explained by real world physics is psionic in nature.

By your argument, not mine.

My argument is that rather than falling back to a 'it's magic, it's psionic, it's ancients' OTU should be explainable by the physics of the OTU.

Nowhere in TNE canon is Virus described as a disembodied psionic lifeform, the authors instead try to use the pseudo science of the OTU to explain it. The argument that it doesn't work with real world physics doesn't wash since none of the OTU high tech stuff can be explained by real physics.

But then that's kind of the point of science fiction isn't it

 

[rancke]

Point me in the direction of real physical laws that can explain the magic tech I listed.

You can't.

I just said so.

Can they be explained as psionics?

Yes.

No, they can't. Psionics require a directive agency. A lifeform or a reasonable facsimili.

My argument is that rather than falling back to a 'it's magic, it's psionic, it's ancients' OTU should be explainable by the physics of the OTU.

But it isn't.

Nowhere in TNE canon is Virus described as a disembodied psionic lifeform,

True. I should have made it clear that it was my conclusion, the best way to explain canon that otherwise doesn't make sense, not canon itself. Mea culpa.

...the authors instead try to use the pseudo science of the OTU to explain it.

But they fail.

The argument that it doesn't work with real world physics doesn't wash since none of the OTU high tech stuff can be explained by real physics.

Again, that's not the argument. The argument is that it can't be explained by real physics but can be explained by psionics.

But then that's kind of the point of science fiction isn't it

Explaining things like that using SF tropes like psionics? It sure is.


Hans

 

[Jeffr0]

From 1428 sourcebook 1 page 23:

"Standard firewalling and anti-hacking techniques were inadequate against a program that could rewrite its host silicon (or other medium) to effectively hardwire itself into the system."

"The only defense seemed to be to disconnect electronic systems from any means of receiving radio signals or electronic communications, but this would cripple a modern society so most individuals and organizations were unwilling to do so."

"Warships with their transponders and communication gear physically isolated form their computers were used to close the border to all ships."

So... virus is transmitted by radio... but once the seed arrives... it uses its "magic" to physically rewire the hardware. Non-Imperial hardware would slow it down... but the physical cutouts of Vilani architecture are what made it possible for them to fight back against Virus so effectively. (Much like the old-school architecture of the Galactica in the new BattleStar series.)