Cyberpunk
- Thread starter kafka47
- Start date
I haven't tried Cyberpunk per se, but I had
introduced a few technology enhancements into
a PBEM I was running.
I use Gurps Traveller and I brought in neural interfaces and microbots/nanotech (limited basis) into the campaign. This also
let me introduce a Techno-mage type NPC ala
Babylon 5, who can use technology to simulate
magic. I didn't use anywhere near the tech
of B5 and even a low-level (GTL9) techno-mage
had some impressive powers.
------------------
Thanks, Gadrin
Gadrin@Space.Com
introduced a few technology enhancements into
a PBEM I was running.
I use Gurps Traveller and I brought in neural interfaces and microbots/nanotech (limited basis) into the campaign. This also
let me introduce a Techno-mage type NPC ala
Babylon 5, who can use technology to simulate
magic. I didn't use anywhere near the tech
of B5 and even a low-level (GTL9) techno-mage
had some impressive powers.
------------------
Thanks, Gadrin
Gadrin@Space.Com
Ah, you have found the Achille's heek of Traveller. The computer rules suck.
When Traveller was written in the mid seventies the book 2 computer rules were pretty realistic and felt like using an old DEC PDP. It did not feek much like timesharing on an IBM 360, and those of us with access to mainframes (and who were thinking of "Mycroft Holmes") were seeing flaws. By the time MT came out my "
Commodore 64 or an Apple IIe was smaller than a typewriter and as capable as a type 1 computer that filled a walk-in closet.
These rules were kept for backwards compatability, but as computer power doubled every 18 months they got sillier. A lot of us wrote house rules or "winged it" to cover computer networks, hacking, CGI, AI, robots, etc. I think the Virus was mostly an effort to hide these flaws without re-writing the rules.
When Traveller was written in the mid seventies the book 2 computer rules were pretty realistic and felt like using an old DEC PDP. It did not feek much like timesharing on an IBM 360, and those of us with access to mainframes (and who were thinking of "Mycroft Holmes") were seeing flaws. By the time MT came out my "
Commodore 64 or an Apple IIe was smaller than a typewriter and as capable as a type 1 computer that filled a walk-in closet.
These rules were kept for backwards compatability, but as computer power doubled every 18 months they got sillier. A lot of us wrote house rules or "winged it" to cover computer networks, hacking, CGI, AI, robots, etc. I think the Virus was mostly an effort to hide these flaws without re-writing the rules.
Shades of Green
SOC-1
Well, someone has tried to cross-over between Traveller and CP2020...
Here's the link: http://www.tassie.net.au/~pweeks/wochen.html
[This message has been edited by Shades of Green (edited 06 October 2001).]
Here's the link: http://www.tassie.net.au/~pweeks/wochen.html
[This message has been edited by Shades of Green (edited 06 October 2001).]
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Ah, you have found the Achille's heek of Traveller. The computer rules suck.
When Traveller was written in the mid seventies the book 2 computer rules were pretty realistic and felt like using an old DEC PDP. It did not feek much like timesharing on an IBM 360, and those of us with access to mainframes (and who were thinking of "Mycroft Holmes") were seeing flaws. By the time MT came out my "
Commodore 64 or an Apple IIe was smaller than a typewriter and as capable as a type 1 computer that filled a walk-in closet.
These rules were kept for backwards compatability, but as computer power doubled every 18 months they got sillier. A lot of us wrote house rules or "winged it" to cover computer networks, hacking, CGI, AI, robots, etc. I think the Virus was mostly an effort to hide these flaws without re-writing the rules.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So much of this depends on what you consider the computer tonnage to represent in CT and MT, as well as how much you know about imbedded computer systems and the design changes needed for survivability in space with a 40+ year operational lifespan. While the old CT rules regarding software are certainly long since relegated to silliness (and are the easiest part of the rules to ignore...), the physical sizes are still not bad, given what sort of incredibly complex machine a starship is, and how many spots around a ship you may want a free-standing terminal, etc.
Despite (or because of) having spent some time in the computer biz, I have no problems with computer sizes in Traveller, even now. On the other hand, my estimates of what a "hand computer" can do in Traveller keep climbing...
Ah, you have found the Achille's heek of Traveller. The computer rules suck.
When Traveller was written in the mid seventies the book 2 computer rules were pretty realistic and felt like using an old DEC PDP. It did not feek much like timesharing on an IBM 360, and those of us with access to mainframes (and who were thinking of "Mycroft Holmes") were seeing flaws. By the time MT came out my "
Commodore 64 or an Apple IIe was smaller than a typewriter and as capable as a type 1 computer that filled a walk-in closet.
These rules were kept for backwards compatability, but as computer power doubled every 18 months they got sillier. A lot of us wrote house rules or "winged it" to cover computer networks, hacking, CGI, AI, robots, etc. I think the Virus was mostly an effort to hide these flaws without re-writing the rules.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So much of this depends on what you consider the computer tonnage to represent in CT and MT, as well as how much you know about imbedded computer systems and the design changes needed for survivability in space with a 40+ year operational lifespan. While the old CT rules regarding software are certainly long since relegated to silliness (and are the easiest part of the rules to ignore...), the physical sizes are still not bad, given what sort of incredibly complex machine a starship is, and how many spots around a ship you may want a free-standing terminal, etc.
Despite (or because of) having spent some time in the computer biz, I have no problems with computer sizes in Traveller, even now. On the other hand, my estimates of what a "hand computer" can do in Traveller keep climbing...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GypsyComet:
So much of this depends on what you consider the computer tonnage to represent in CT and MT, as well as how much you know about imbedded computer systems and the design changes needed for survivability in space with a 40+ year operational lifespan. While the old CT rules regarding software are certainly long since relegated to silliness (and are the easiest part of the rules to ignore...), the physical sizes are still not bad, given what sort of incredibly complex machine a starship is, and how many spots around a ship you may want a free-standing terminal, etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Obviously, local processors are embedded in systems like the environmental controls systems, drives, and sensors, but these and their consoles are properly charged as part of the appropriate systems. These tasks are vastly mor complicated then space maneuvering. Orbital mechanics have been well understood for years, which suggests level 1 ships computer is a 8086 processor and 640K RAM in the middle of a big empty box.
Additional consoles are properly charged against the bridge (what else is it there for?)
Radiation hardening isn't a major concern. Radiation levels that will damage microprocessors will kill the men standing next to them, and the 0-6 G environment has little effect on solid-state systems. As for a 40 year lifespan, you set up triple redundant processor cards and replace any failed card as part of routine maintenance.
I treat the "computer" percentage as a sensor array (the surcharges for scout and military sensors are firmware enhancements). After all, the major game effect of a "computer" is on weapons targeting. The "ships computer" IMTU is a 25 Kg server included with the bridge that communicates with all the onboard systems, including the Navigation computer which is a box about 2 meters away.
I did work out rules for interfaces, including a simulated personality right up to self-aware systems, but I never shared them. Our usual referee was also the fantasy DM, and if you had ever seen what he did with a talking horse or ego sword, you wouldn't trust him with "Hal" either.
So much of this depends on what you consider the computer tonnage to represent in CT and MT, as well as how much you know about imbedded computer systems and the design changes needed for survivability in space with a 40+ year operational lifespan. While the old CT rules regarding software are certainly long since relegated to silliness (and are the easiest part of the rules to ignore...), the physical sizes are still not bad, given what sort of incredibly complex machine a starship is, and how many spots around a ship you may want a free-standing terminal, etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Obviously, local processors are embedded in systems like the environmental controls systems, drives, and sensors, but these and their consoles are properly charged as part of the appropriate systems. These tasks are vastly mor complicated then space maneuvering. Orbital mechanics have been well understood for years, which suggests level 1 ships computer is a 8086 processor and 640K RAM in the middle of a big empty box.
Additional consoles are properly charged against the bridge (what else is it there for?)
Radiation hardening isn't a major concern. Radiation levels that will damage microprocessors will kill the men standing next to them, and the 0-6 G environment has little effect on solid-state systems. As for a 40 year lifespan, you set up triple redundant processor cards and replace any failed card as part of routine maintenance.
I treat the "computer" percentage as a sensor array (the surcharges for scout and military sensors are firmware enhancements). After all, the major game effect of a "computer" is on weapons targeting. The "ships computer" IMTU is a 25 Kg server included with the bridge that communicates with all the onboard systems, including the Navigation computer which is a box about 2 meters away.
I did work out rules for interfaces, including a simulated personality right up to self-aware systems, but I never shared them. Our usual referee was also the fantasy DM, and if you had ever seen what he did with a talking horse or ego sword, you wouldn't trust him with "Hal" either.
Spinward Scout
SOC-14 5K
Could you post those interface rules for us?
Peace,
Scout
Peace,
Scout
-------------Ouch, sorry. As I said, I never dared use those rules, so I haven't looked at them in 20 years. These interfaces were generally standard on computers at the appropriate TL, no extra cost. They were first introduced on big dedicated machines, +1 TL on ship and office computers, +2 TL on personal computers, +3 TL on handheld computers. (ie, at TL 13 your Ships computer may be an AI, and you're pocket PDA would have an Artificial Personality.
Punchcards & teletype TL5
Keyboard & CRT TL6-
Verbal Interface (TL7) Just uses verbal commands and spoken responses instead of the keyboard. Think classic Star Trek. I used maritime protocals to prevent mistakes from misinterpreted orders (if it works shouting orders in a gale, it should work for a dumb machine on a quiet bridge.)
For example, "Shut down engines"
"Shut down power plant, aye"
"Belay that! Secure the MANEUVER drive."
"Secure maneuver drive, aye."
pause
"Maneuver drive is secured"
Artificial Personality (TL9) Adds social amenities, but may not always be appropriate (like the ship in Hitch Hikers Guide). Seldom used for crew functions, but often for PDA.
"Good morning, Ms Vanaprul, this is the morning of your seventh day on "The Duchess of Regina", and thank you for choosing Tukhera lines, the safest way to travel in the Spinward Marches. Breakfast is now being served in the lounge, or a continental breakfast can be sent to your room. The Captain asked me to tell you that we did not come out of jump as expected last night, and that may cause some inconvenience. Have a GREAT day."
Artificial Intelligence TL12 The computer is aware of it's environment and can draw conclusions and make appropriate choices, but, like an idiot savant, only in some areas. Like Hal 9000, "We have a problem in engineering. I know we have been using it heavily, but following the guidelines programmed at the last overhaul, I am shutting down the maneuver drive for repairs." With expert systems (and sometimes a manipulator or robot) installed it can act as a crewman in an emergency at a skill level 1/2 the expert program.
Self Aware TL 14 We are talking about a full silicon-germanium NPC here. Its feelings can be hurt (although it also has professionalism) and with social skills even. "When I was fixing the coolant leak after the Pirates chased us, I saw some suspicious tool marks on the fittings. Captain, I know the manager of Smithson's Shiprights is a friend of yours, but the pirates may have bribed one of his techs. I suggest we get our repairs done in a different yard this time." A self aware computer can take full advantage of Expert systems, and may or may not pass port clearance regulations as a crewman.
At TL16 we can have fully automated ships.
You can also buy "expert systems" that will assist a player with specialist knowledge and proceedures.
If the PC has no expertise in that field but a basic understanding of the tools and equipment (i.e. a Engineer trying to Navigate, etc), he can perform as if he had a skill of 1/2 the program level. If the character has at least one level of the appropriate skill he can use his skill or the programs skill, whichever is higher.
TL applies to engineering programs: -1 for ecery 2 TL higher, -1 for every 3 TL lower. I.e., a +2 TL10 program is +1 with a TL12 or TL13 drive, no help with a TL14+. A +2 TL14 pogram is only +1 with an old TL8-11 drive
Price varied. Ship skills were about a 100KCr/level.
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 11 October 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 11 October 2001).]
Punchcards & teletype TL5
Keyboard & CRT TL6-
Verbal Interface (TL7) Just uses verbal commands and spoken responses instead of the keyboard. Think classic Star Trek. I used maritime protocals to prevent mistakes from misinterpreted orders (if it works shouting orders in a gale, it should work for a dumb machine on a quiet bridge.)
For example, "Shut down engines"
"Shut down power plant, aye"
"Belay that! Secure the MANEUVER drive."
"Secure maneuver drive, aye."
pause
"Maneuver drive is secured"
Artificial Personality (TL9) Adds social amenities, but may not always be appropriate (like the ship in Hitch Hikers Guide). Seldom used for crew functions, but often for PDA.
"Good morning, Ms Vanaprul, this is the morning of your seventh day on "The Duchess of Regina", and thank you for choosing Tukhera lines, the safest way to travel in the Spinward Marches. Breakfast is now being served in the lounge, or a continental breakfast can be sent to your room. The Captain asked me to tell you that we did not come out of jump as expected last night, and that may cause some inconvenience. Have a GREAT day."
Artificial Intelligence TL12 The computer is aware of it's environment and can draw conclusions and make appropriate choices, but, like an idiot savant, only in some areas. Like Hal 9000, "We have a problem in engineering. I know we have been using it heavily, but following the guidelines programmed at the last overhaul, I am shutting down the maneuver drive for repairs." With expert systems (and sometimes a manipulator or robot) installed it can act as a crewman in an emergency at a skill level 1/2 the expert program.
Self Aware TL 14 We are talking about a full silicon-germanium NPC here. Its feelings can be hurt (although it also has professionalism) and with social skills even. "When I was fixing the coolant leak after the Pirates chased us, I saw some suspicious tool marks on the fittings. Captain, I know the manager of Smithson's Shiprights is a friend of yours, but the pirates may have bribed one of his techs. I suggest we get our repairs done in a different yard this time." A self aware computer can take full advantage of Expert systems, and may or may not pass port clearance regulations as a crewman.
At TL16 we can have fully automated ships.
You can also buy "expert systems" that will assist a player with specialist knowledge and proceedures.
If the PC has no expertise in that field but a basic understanding of the tools and equipment (i.e. a Engineer trying to Navigate, etc), he can perform as if he had a skill of 1/2 the program level. If the character has at least one level of the appropriate skill he can use his skill or the programs skill, whichever is higher.
TL applies to engineering programs: -1 for ecery 2 TL higher, -1 for every 3 TL lower. I.e., a +2 TL10 program is +1 with a TL12 or TL13 drive, no help with a TL14+. A +2 TL14 pogram is only +1 with an old TL8-11 drive
Price varied. Ship skills were about a 100KCr/level.
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 11 October 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 11 October 2001).]
autochthonic
SOC-7
heh. In one campaign (1982)I remember a heated debate about a character's TL 12 pocket computer which stored audio files (the complete works of Bach), a small library (about 3 kilo-books), and a surface map archive of Lanth.
In the end we all agreed it was impossible - but the character could store the files on the ship computer, and read them with a special hand communicator. That was in 1981.
Not many years later I did try to sort out the computer rules allowing semi-aware talking starships, which led an unfortunate incident involving the Imperial Turing Cops and the character's stock of RAM grenades. After that the players had far too many problems to worry about their computers.
Cyberwear _feels_ wrong in Traveller, where characters don't improve just by spending money. Also, if you can put a machine in your pocket, why implant it? After all, no-one wants a betamax leg.
In the end we all agreed it was impossible - but the character could store the files on the ship computer, and read them with a special hand communicator. That was in 1981.
Not many years later I did try to sort out the computer rules allowing semi-aware talking starships, which led an unfortunate incident involving the Imperial Turing Cops and the character's stock of RAM grenades. After that the players had far too many problems to worry about their computers.
Cyberwear _feels_ wrong in Traveller, where characters don't improve just by spending money. Also, if you can put a machine in your pocket, why implant it? After all, no-one wants a betamax leg.
autochthonic
SOC-7
Talking about implanted cyberwear, I see the cyberpunk type of dystopia as being a rarity in the Imperium. It's got a feel of a planet-bound inward culture, the technological equivalent to tribal piercings, and comes from a naivety about technology. A cyberpunk planet would be relatively new to the technologies used, which explains the over-enthusiasm. (Implanting technology implies an unhealthy obsession with gagetry). Also most cyberwear would show up on scanners, so would be useless for routine espionage work.
Within the Imperium most technology was develeped centuries ago, there's little in the way of a "cutting edge". Probably scout/couriers are running the same software they did 100 years before. I see a cyberpunk planet as being one on the verge of jump drive, perhaps interdicted, or simply too far off the trade routes, one forced to develop their own technology.
Of course it's a large Imperium. there must be dozens of planets which have the necessary cultures - high population, industrial, high tech, technocracy or balkanised, Amber or Red zones. But most people even there keep their machines in their pockets, not their bodies. In William Gibson's novels you get the feeling that there are few enhanced members of society, half of the cyberpunk's trouble is simply finding the right supplier so parts and skills must be very rare.
Within the Imperium most technology was develeped centuries ago, there's little in the way of a "cutting edge". Probably scout/couriers are running the same software they did 100 years before. I see a cyberpunk planet as being one on the verge of jump drive, perhaps interdicted, or simply too far off the trade routes, one forced to develop their own technology.
Of course it's a large Imperium. there must be dozens of planets which have the necessary cultures - high population, industrial, high tech, technocracy or balkanised, Amber or Red zones. But most people even there keep their machines in their pockets, not their bodies. In William Gibson's novels you get the feeling that there are few enhanced members of society, half of the cyberpunk's trouble is simply finding the right supplier so parts and skills must be very rare.
Back in the day I used to treat Efate as a 'cyberpunk' planet, due to its high pop, high TL, and 0 law. Of course that doesn't mesh very well with canonical accounts of Efate, but back in those days I didn't care about such things (to be honest I still don't, but nowadays I at least give it a little consideration first).
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
given that "Cyberpunk" covers a lot of ground, there are elements that are very appropriate in Traveller, as well as some that aren't.
The Future Shock elements of Cyberpunk don't fit very well, since the Traveller universe is *very* slow moving technologically. Societies will very rarely get out-run by technological advances.
The "style before substance" disaffected youth element is always appropriate.
The dystopian super-corporations are also very appropriate.
The casual cybernetic body-part replacement is, due to the long-established dislike of such things in the Imperium, not going to be common. On many of the worlds likely to spawn such disaffectation with self, the first punk who says "screw society's rules, I want metal!" may be surprised to discover not only his citizenship but his status as a sophont stripped from him in court. This will tend to squash such ideas from getting widespread...
The Future Shock elements of Cyberpunk don't fit very well, since the Traveller universe is *very* slow moving technologically. Societies will very rarely get out-run by technological advances.
The "style before substance" disaffected youth element is always appropriate.
The dystopian super-corporations are also very appropriate.
The casual cybernetic body-part replacement is, due to the long-established dislike of such things in the Imperium, not going to be common. On many of the worlds likely to spawn such disaffectation with self, the first punk who says "screw society's rules, I want metal!" may be surprised to discover not only his citizenship but his status as a sophont stripped from him in court. This will tend to squash such ideas from getting widespread...
Enoff
SOC-13
This is still the achilles heel, 11 years later!
I've been going through a mismatch of media lately to satisfy a resurgence of Cyberpunk interest after watching "Girl with the Dragon Tattoo." I watched the Hollywood version with Daniel Craig but also have a copy of the Swedish made for TV movie that I am halfway through. It inspired me to go back and listen to the audio book "Neuromancer" read by William Gibson himself, awesome!!
I found copies of William H. Keith's Warstrider series from the 90s which deals a lot with neural interfaces. Also having fun looking over GURPS Cyberpunk 3rd ed, I had never thoroughly gone through it.
I've been going through a mismatch of media lately to satisfy a resurgence of Cyberpunk interest after watching "Girl with the Dragon Tattoo." I watched the Hollywood version with Daniel Craig but also have a copy of the Swedish made for TV movie that I am halfway through. It inspired me to go back and listen to the audio book "Neuromancer" read by William Gibson himself, awesome!!
I found copies of William H. Keith's Warstrider series from the 90s which deals a lot with neural interfaces. Also having fun looking over GURPS Cyberpunk 3rd ed, I had never thoroughly gone through it.
GrayPennell
SOC-12
I liked a lot of T5 computers but missed the software bit so I went back and came up with house rules for computers in my universe. I worked to make it cyberpunk friendly and to work in places other than ships. If interested in seeing them let me know.
Enoff
SOC-13
Cyber as prefix has become contemporary pervasive with everything around us: relating to electronic communication networks and virtual reality. Instead of cyberfetish I would see Cyberpunk as the counter culture of accepted cyber, not always criminal but the use of communication networks in a non-standard conformist way. It doesn't have to be pink mohawks and pierced eyebrows, that would be cyberfetish.
And that's sort of my take too; it's an old way to solve a problem. There are better ways to replace lost limbs, interface with computers, and extend life.
I chalk up the lack of real cyberpunk in MTU as a result of a combination of purist social elitism and the Terminator effect.
The Empire exalts and Society (capital S) advances only pure strain humans and shuns any sort of bio manipulation or mechanical accessories; only those not fit for proper civilization have the need for such abominations of the flesh. Fads come and go but anyone of a mature age garnishing embedded tech would suffer socially. Wounded veterans are the few who are excused of this but still there are whispers and odd looks.
Murders and other violent acts are often blamed on some sort of artificial or unnatural influence often associated with technological appliances. This is particularly true in areas where cybernetic technologies are more common such as heavy industry, mining, and even high tech.
This works to the Empire's advantage maintaining a technological advantage over potential internal rivals. It also builds a general mistrust for this type of technology among the masses and creates a source for intelligence on any activity associated with it. Rumors quickly find interested ears.
I chalk up the lack of real cyberpunk in MTU as a result of a combination of purist social elitism and the Terminator effect.
The Empire exalts and Society (capital S) advances only pure strain humans and shuns any sort of bio manipulation or mechanical accessories; only those not fit for proper civilization have the need for such abominations of the flesh. Fads come and go but anyone of a mature age garnishing embedded tech would suffer socially. Wounded veterans are the few who are excused of this but still there are whispers and odd looks.
Murders and other violent acts are often blamed on some sort of artificial or unnatural influence often associated with technological appliances. This is particularly true in areas where cybernetic technologies are more common such as heavy industry, mining, and even high tech.
This works to the Empire's advantage maintaining a technological advantage over potential internal rivals. It also builds a general mistrust for this type of technology among the masses and creates a source for intelligence on any activity associated with it. Rumors quickly find interested ears.
Quint
SOC-13
My "go-to" for years has been the mostly-to-barely Traveller universe but using the CP2020 rules engine (usually with advanced character generation results overlaid on-top of the CP2020 Lifepath to create color).
Even the CP2020 game has aged pretty badly, but I liked the engine and the tech and what it allowed me to do better. I applied some "handwavium" and posited that all of the computer technology was based on holographic crystal storage and some other form of electronic charge processing and so avoided any really sense of being bound to "reality".
D.
Even the CP2020 game has aged pretty badly, but I liked the engine and the tech and what it allowed me to do better. I applied some "handwavium" and posited that all of the computer technology was based on holographic crystal storage and some other form of electronic charge processing and so avoided any really sense of being bound to "reality".
D.
