Use a system like Eclipse Phase or similar that allows for the "Netrunner" to produce results via a skills system that also supports real world combat. If you don't you end up with a separate in-game game. Plus, you can have the "netrunner" hacking away at computer systems to support real world party members (setting off airlocks, life support, playing with security systems etc) which is far more engaging for all concerned.
Cyberspace/Netrunning in Traveller
- Thread starter Quint
- Start date
Yeah, I agree and that's no fun much of the time.
That's the idea! That's why I was referencing both Intelligence and Person of Interest, I think that those are both good, current examples of what Netrunning could look like in Traveller (as well as a great "what-if" for what a highly networked, higher-tech world might operate like).
D.
*chuckle* I get that this is an issue that you feel strongly about but...
I happen to be a cognitive psychologist by training and trade. While I don't exactly agree with how the idea often gets implemented it isn't really that nonsensical given how we process information and then spit it back out in the way of actions.
If the idea is that the brain interprets and creates a virtual reality that says "writing and modifying code on the fly gets translated as shooting a gun in the virtual reality that all Netrunners inhabit" then I'd agree. That's a pretty complicated and rather illogical "translation" to make - especially if each experience of the VR is individual to each Netrunner.
But if as CP2020 posits (and I think the model you are talking about is more the "Matrix" model), there is a shared interface that everyone uses then it gets more reasonable (though still iffy IMO). If you take it to the step that CP2020 did and each program is a complicated mix of software and hardware that is itself not modified "on the fly" then that idea becomes much more reasonable. The shared interface has a shared object model for a common program, and if you want to speed reaction speed you want to emulate something that the brain already makes sense of (a weapon is weapon, etc).
But all of these is dependent on what you have decided the "rules" of cyberspace are - and that can range pretty wide and far depending upon what source material you want to pull from. But I think two broad strokes would be is this an environment that the Netrunner struggles to interpret because it is an inherently hostile environment, is the experience Cyberspace something built as tool with the Netrunner in mind as is supportive of their experience.
There isn't actually any reason you couldn't have both in a Traveller setting - human Netrunners might be fine with human Cyberspace but find Hiver cyberspace utterly mind-bending (or some other very nonhuman race). In fact, you could posit that at higher TL you might need less and less in the way of training because the VR or cyberspace gets more and more immersive and user-friendly (or more Matrix-like) - but that as that happens skills needed for "hacking" from within the system get more Psionic in nature as opposed to computer-literacy based.
D.
man, this is a juicy topic.
the issue of 'cyberwarfare now' vs. 'how it will be done as far in the future as temporally distant as we are from Imperial Rome' is a tough issue to get ahold of.
The idea of 'shared cyberspace with avatars' shows no sign of becoming less common in our meatspace world.
CyberGoog...errrm Goggles are just starting to appear in our everyday world.
Take a minute to go find one of the 'NYC Subway In The 1980s' photoblogs that are a few clicks away.
Look for Walkman Headphones. They're THERE, but not ubiquitous.
unlike earbuds/phones TODAY, which are the rule, not the exception.
I was -on those trains- with my Traveller LBBs in my knapsack, going to HS and College with a Walkman-that-weighed-like-a-brick in my pocket and a handful of 90minute cassettes in the other. I -got- odd looks. But now, it's all changed. and that's barely three decades later.
A rapidly evolving tech base is, yes, hard to portray 'accurately'. but it's far from impossible.
The idea that some people will be multitasking digitally, while some will only turn on the HUD in their Phone (Short Range Comm Unit) is just a simple spread of cultural variance.
As for the 'Standards Across the Imperium' I think a thousand years of 'standardization' means 'your TL 12 handycomp 1 and the Ship's TL 14 Core can talk just fine' but folks might look at that 'old phone' kinda funny.
the issue of 'cyberwarfare now' vs. 'how it will be done as far in the future as temporally distant as we are from Imperial Rome' is a tough issue to get ahold of.
The idea of 'shared cyberspace with avatars' shows no sign of becoming less common in our meatspace world.
CyberGoog...errrm Goggles are just starting to appear in our everyday world.
Take a minute to go find one of the 'NYC Subway In The 1980s' photoblogs that are a few clicks away.
Look for Walkman Headphones. They're THERE, but not ubiquitous.
unlike earbuds/phones TODAY, which are the rule, not the exception.
I was -on those trains- with my Traveller LBBs in my knapsack, going to HS and College with a Walkman-that-weighed-like-a-brick in my pocket and a handful of 90minute cassettes in the other. I -got- odd looks. But now, it's all changed. and that's barely three decades later.
A rapidly evolving tech base is, yes, hard to portray 'accurately'. but it's far from impossible.
The idea that some people will be multitasking digitally, while some will only turn on the HUD in their Phone (Short Range Comm Unit) is just a simple spread of cultural variance.
As for the 'Standards Across the Imperium' I think a thousand years of 'standardization' means 'your TL 12 handycomp 1 and the Ship's TL 14 Core can talk just fine' but folks might look at that 'old phone' kinda funny.
the old notion of time-dilation and lag
is a bit, well, bad.
a Human operator, trying to hack a database at a panel might have to 'focus on task' but he's not going to be able to take in a huge amount of 'game within a game' time if you run it sensibly.
even that 'computer in your head' mod can only dump so much on your meat-brain before you get 'cyber-shear' issues.
what about a (FLUX) number of rounds of actions for a 'hacker' and then it's back to 'normal time' for (FLUX) rounds. with the 'cyberspace time' taking /seconds, and the 'meatspace rounds taking /minutes?
is a bit, well, bad.
a Human operator, trying to hack a database at a panel might have to 'focus on task' but he's not going to be able to take in a huge amount of 'game within a game' time if you run it sensibly.
even that 'computer in your head' mod can only dump so much on your meat-brain before you get 'cyber-shear' issues.
what about a (FLUX) number of rounds of actions for a 'hacker' and then it's back to 'normal time' for (FLUX) rounds. with the 'cyberspace time' taking /seconds, and the 'meatspace rounds taking /minutes?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The human is going to press a button. The computer will then do the work. Thee is no way the meat being is going to be able to "hack" anything, it will be program vs program.
meaning, in game terms, what, then?
realtime computer ops is 'impossible by definition'?
how, then do you integrate security overrides, various other tropes in your game?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Are you seriously suggesting that you can write intrusion programs on the scale of the combat round?
It takes weeks, perhaps months, to write the code necessary to crack systems.
You use your computer skill to write the program, which can be given an intrusion rating based on TL, computer skill and task outcome. This is then pitted against the security rating of the system you are trying to affect.
By all means personalise the programs and fight it out in some avatar like projection, but writing code takes time, and lots of it.
It takes weeks, perhaps months, to write the code necessary to crack systems.
You use your computer skill to write the program, which can be given an intrusion rating based on TL, computer skill and task outcome. This is then pitted against the security rating of the system you are trying to affect.
By all means personalise the programs and fight it out in some avatar like projection, but writing code takes time, and lots of it.
JTAS 22
Thank you! After some online digging I figured out which issue, now to just unearth it! Sounds like I have a trip to the basement this weekend...
D.
I wonder, if we went with the CP2020 version of "software" (which is actually a mix of software and hardware) if what some of that "in the moment" work isn't writing code but sitting on and fine-tuning the hardware performance (both of the intrusion tool and of the cyberdeck itself). I'm really not wedded to the idea that netrunning is anything but an exchange of electronic broadsides (or is a neural knifefight), but I do think that idea has some merit.
If I'm going with the idea that "netrunning" as in the "dive headfirst into the net" version has some actual utility it may be because the technology has moved away from simply software or hardware and started to become more of a fusion. Or because as the TL increases the computer systems become more and more "Expert Intelligence" on the way to "Artificial Intelligence" and Netrunning (inside the Net) has some sort of analogy to social engineering of meatspace.
What if all the Intrusion system is there to do is to give the Netrunner the chance to "fast-talk" the opposing system into some action based on a "momentary lapse of judgment" or some other mistake that is something other than simply "cracked code" because everything repairs itself too quickly.
D.
GitS super hacker, like The Major, does hack in and break into someone's cyber brain while she is talking to them.
But she, and other characters, mention how lousy the cyber brain firewalls are. Some are better, most are of very poor quality.
One character, The Laughing Man, does hack real time into a local tv network and changes their on screen logos in just a few seconds.
I haven't played the, I think PS2, game modeled after the Anime, but I have read it doesn't have much of the movie/anime 'behind the scenes' in it. It is mostly a first person shooter game.
So in one fictional universe, it does work quickly.
But she, and other characters, mention how lousy the cyber brain firewalls are. Some are better, most are of very poor quality.
One character, The Laughing Man, does hack real time into a local tv network and changes their on screen logos in just a few seconds.
I haven't played the, I think PS2, game modeled after the Anime, but I have read it doesn't have much of the movie/anime 'behind the scenes' in it. It is mostly a first person shooter game.
So in one fictional universe, it does work quickly.
no, I was not.
I separate 'writing your own code in downtime' from 'combat/fast action rounds hacking' - which is generally described more in terms of 'physical hacks' as opposed to 'movie grade handwavium'. as in, pulling open access points, drilling locking mechanisms, etc.
If you spend a lot of credits on a door and lock, you probably shouldn't mount it in drywall, but a lot of places IRL actually do.
bearing in mind the nature of 'roleplaying games', particularly, their being a method of telling an entertaining story with good pacing and an engaging plot for all the players, you have to allow for some tropes to flourish.
if your player wants to be a cybered-up hacker, you can let that happen.
I like to make sure my hard-core criminal PCs have a balanced mix of the right skills. if they don't to start with, I write in the deficits as plot devices to push them towards the 'advanced version' of the character.
a brilliant coder can only do so much. likewise a great locksmith. the two, working together, after a couple near misses on an early caper, can probably build one if those cool black boxes, while in jumpspace.
So, again, It's all well and good to throw stones at what you see as 'bad' in someone else's game. how do you run it?
or, are you just here to tell us how lousy Traveller is? I'm not starting a fight, but I'm feeling a bit disrespected by your perceived tone. I get that certain tropes are BS compared to 'how the real world works' {we could spend hours deconstructing gunfight rules, my friend, hours.}
I run a weekly game. have for decades. it works pretty ok, but I always look to improve my craft. suggestions? I'm open to them.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Sorry if my post came over as disrespectful, it's one of the problems of the inter webs that the tone can be set by poorly worded (on my part) posts.
Like I posted up thread - I have the hacker write a program (or modify an existing program), which can take quite a time.
This is them pitted agains the security software of the system to be invaded. In the virtual reality this can be imagined in any way you desire, and from a roleplaying perspective you can describe it and require die rolls to maintain tension.
Like I posted up thread - I have the hacker write a program (or modify an existing program), which can take quite a time.
This is them pitted agains the security software of the system to be invaded. In the virtual reality this can be imagined in any way you desire, and from a roleplaying perspective you can describe it and require die rolls to maintain tension.
no worries, my friend.
I've run whole gamestores. I have a thick skin.
also, I have a related thread going on, vis Computers/Cyber I'd link it here, but I suck at that. you can find it, no doubt. join that convo too!
So, after dragging up JTAS #22 (and a couple of other issues) I've come up with a couple of interesting datapoints.
In the Computer Implant rules it is noted that "most" TL10 satellite networks create a world-wide computer network. It also isn't exactly talking about the same sort of "netrunning" as found in Saint Gibson's work - it also suggests what Daniel Key Moran described in his Continuing Time novels as "datastarve" for people who come dependent operating via computer implant.
In JTAS #24 it talks about credit cards, three different varieties - the Imperial Standard Cdit Card which is essentially a microprocessor for what would seem to be an Imperium-run bank (which matches with other bits of canon that I seem to recall). The other two cards mentioned are a TAS card, and a card issued by Zirunkariish. This also pretty much implies an Imperium-wide network on at least one level/context.
Now, looking more specifically at the Traveller Computer implant this is actually less a "netrunning tool" and more of a brain augmentation (boosts Int and Edu) that happens to allow the user to bypass the need for a physical hand computer (it's implanted) as well as this providing some bonuses to skills that make sense (harkening forward to DGP's modifiers to use for technological controls - holodynamic panels are better than dials and levers, etc)
In Gibson's work, netrunning is a combination of skill and some very specific hardware and software - that I think is best defined as using intrusion software to bypass protections, "ride in along after it" to then access the defenseless controllers and tell the computer to do whatever seems natural. The "brain first" part seems a recognition of the idea that the netrunner may only have seconds before the defenses snap back into place and they lose the opportunity to do whatever. Burning Chrome is a great example of this.
Daniel Key's Moran has a similar idea, but combined it with the idea that Netrunners created "Images" which were essentially micro-AI's that augmented their abilities in the 'Net, but which reside in their hand computers. They are also more like a wizard's familiar in some ways (but highly competent, not an AD&D familiar). When Trent gets the implanted computer link it is very much like what JTAS #22 is talking about - and later in the series he and his Image have essentially merged and become a single entity in many ways.
CP2020 basically posited that netrunning was an elaborate interface that granted netrunners some advantage in hacking - but again, the Netrunning wasn't writing code they were running preloaded programs. In DKM's work, and I believe t least some of Gibson's work there is some mention of modifying code on the fly (which makes some sense) and all three sources posit that netrunning has both it's long-range informational hacks and more tactical, combat-related hacks.
All three also posit the existence of Artificial Intelligences but that is a very fuzzy line in ProtoT let alone the OTO, but which would absolutely need to be considered when figuring out how to make things work.
D.
In the Computer Implant rules it is noted that "most" TL10 satellite networks create a world-wide computer network. It also isn't exactly talking about the same sort of "netrunning" as found in Saint Gibson's work - it also suggests what Daniel Key Moran described in his Continuing Time novels as "datastarve" for people who come dependent operating via computer implant.
In JTAS #24 it talks about credit cards, three different varieties - the Imperial Standard Cdit Card which is essentially a microprocessor for what would seem to be an Imperium-run bank (which matches with other bits of canon that I seem to recall). The other two cards mentioned are a TAS card, and a card issued by Zirunkariish. This also pretty much implies an Imperium-wide network on at least one level/context.
Now, looking more specifically at the Traveller Computer implant this is actually less a "netrunning tool" and more of a brain augmentation (boosts Int and Edu) that happens to allow the user to bypass the need for a physical hand computer (it's implanted) as well as this providing some bonuses to skills that make sense (harkening forward to DGP's modifiers to use for technological controls - holodynamic panels are better than dials and levers, etc)
In Gibson's work, netrunning is a combination of skill and some very specific hardware and software - that I think is best defined as using intrusion software to bypass protections, "ride in along after it" to then access the defenseless controllers and tell the computer to do whatever seems natural. The "brain first" part seems a recognition of the idea that the netrunner may only have seconds before the defenses snap back into place and they lose the opportunity to do whatever. Burning Chrome is a great example of this.
Daniel Key's Moran has a similar idea, but combined it with the idea that Netrunners created "Images" which were essentially micro-AI's that augmented their abilities in the 'Net, but which reside in their hand computers. They are also more like a wizard's familiar in some ways (but highly competent, not an AD&D familiar). When Trent gets the implanted computer link it is very much like what JTAS #22 is talking about - and later in the series he and his Image have essentially merged and become a single entity in many ways.
CP2020 basically posited that netrunning was an elaborate interface that granted netrunners some advantage in hacking - but again, the Netrunning wasn't writing code they were running preloaded programs. In DKM's work, and I believe t least some of Gibson's work there is some mention of modifying code on the fly (which makes some sense) and all three sources posit that netrunning has both it's long-range informational hacks and more tactical, combat-related hacks.
All three also posit the existence of Artificial Intelligences but that is a very fuzzy line in ProtoT let alone the OTO, but which would absolutely need to be considered when figuring out how to make things work.
D.
Ok, mostly as an update/placeholder, it is worth noting that the Mongoose Traveller "Cybernetics" supplement has rules for the netrunning ala Gibson. I'm not sure if I'm entirely happy with the rules, they seem a bit clunky and don't mesh very well with the other rules for hacking found elsewhere in the MgT rules, but they are there.
EDIT: Also, the most complete rules for "regular hacking" are found in MgT Scoundrel (which seem quite workable), with an odd little section in MgT Agent that doesn't seem very "Traveller-esque" (more like a D&D Prestige class) but has some specific hacking tasks listed out.
D.
EDIT: Also, the most complete rules for "regular hacking" are found in MgT Scoundrel (which seem quite workable), with an odd little section in MgT Agent that doesn't seem very "Traveller-esque" (more like a D&D Prestige class) but has some specific hacking tasks listed out.
D.
