Damage Control house rule

[Bob Weaver]

Under Bk2 rules, the larger starships (1000+ dtn) always have a lot of extra space - there's only so many drives you can fit in.
How would it affect space combat if we included the following:

If a ship has aboard twice the required compliment of dedicated Engineering crew, the ship may make two damage control/repair rolls per combat turn, at the usual difficulty of 9+, with skill serving as a positive DM.

That would be an advantage for larger ships when engaging smaller ones, for a start. But 9+ is only 28% success, and throwing twice has only an 8% chance of both succeeding. That's far from guaranteed.

This idea just came to me this morning, and before I incorporate it into my body of house rules, I should get some other perspectives.

Best regards,
Bob W.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sounds reasonable in LBB2, but perhaps not in LBB5. It could even be generalised to: For each extra full engineering crew, the ship gets an extra Damage Control roll per turn.

It would remove a disadvantage one large ship has when fighting several smaller ships, they can repair more damage.

Note that it is generally easier than 9+ to repair:

Usually, a throw of 9+ will repair one hit of damage, with skill serving as a positive DM.

With LBB5 heavily armoured ships would become almost invulnerable to anything but crits. LBB5 ships only needs a third as many engineers.

 

[kilemall]

A simple LBB5 rule could be that you factor the Crew number in- Crew-1 you can roll one damage control, Crew-2 roll two, etc.

 

[whartung]

A simple LBB5 rule could be that you factor the Crew number in- Crew-1 you can roll one damage control, Crew-2 roll two, etc.

Yet if you lose 1 factor of Crew, the ship is almost completely helpless.

 

[kilemall]

Yet if you lose 1 factor of Crew, the ship is almost completely helpless.

Well, if one wants to be a rulesmonger, the LBB5 rules already say you can't repair your ship unless you are at full crew, and off the line and in the reserve.


That's all hands repairing instead of fighting, and likely the Frozen Watch has been activated.


In the original iteration a Crew-1 hit could actually work out to something like 80% of the crew gone. Last I checked the errata, Crew-1 hits were 10%- more reasonable but still means you could disable a superdreadnaught with just 10 PA rad hits.


Either way damage control doesn't really seem to scale logically in LBB5- at least the OP is looking at drive size and required crewing and extrapolating the design price of a robust DC capability.


Another way to go is preach the religion of DC like the USN historically did, and have stringent training and capability to 'not give up the ship'. That would translate to something like maybe mandatory Mechanical/Electronics/Engineering skill-0s in otherwise non-engineering crew.


Another potential benefit is tweaking the ship to get more performance out of the ship, but it needs exotic levels of work like double engineers to get it and easily lost due to crew casualties or scaling back the manpower.

 

[infojunky]

On this topic I have been pondering stealing the Rules from Full Thrust, In which you get one Damage Control Party per crew factor, And with the addition of Passenger space one can increase the number of Damage Control Parties to double the number provided by the base crew.

 

[Timerover51]

Under Bk2 rules, the larger starships (1000+ dtn) always have a lot of extra space - there's only so many drives you can fit in.
How would it affect space combat if we included the following:

If a ship has aboard twice the required compliment of dedicated Engineering crew, the ship may make two damage control/repair rolls per combat turn, at the usual difficulty of 9+, with skill serving as a positive DM.

That would be an advantage for larger ships when engaging smaller ones, for a start. But 9+ is only 28% success, and throwing twice has only an 8% chance of both succeeding. That's far from guaranteed.

This idea just came to me this morning, and before I incorporate it into my body of house rules, I should get some other perspectives.

Best regards,
Bob W.

Your math is a bit off. If you are throwing twice for a single 9+ result, you need to multiply .72 times .72, which will give you about a 48% chance of success, not 8%. If you are carrying a double Engineering Crew, only one role should need to succeed. Then you have to figure with a double Engineering Crew, you are likely to have someone with Engineering-2 Skill Level, which changes one of the roles from 9+ tp 7+.

Then you have another option, which I do not think is often considered. A 1000 dTon ship has 165 dTons of volume allocated for drives. For Jump-2 and Maneuver-2, along with Power Plant-2, you need Drive Level K in the 1981 Edition of the LBBs. That takes up 105 dTons of volume. The minimum drives needed for a 1000 dTon ship are Drive Level E, which takes up 55 dTons of volume. Combined, they equal 160 dTons of volume, while the standard hull has that 165 dTons of volume for drives. The way the drive and power plant costs are computed, the cost for the two sets of drive is the same as the cost for Drive Level Q, which just gets you to Jump-3 and Maneuver-3. Basically, the cost of one set of Jump-1 Drives and one set of Jump-2 Drives gets you redundancy for your Engineering Plant for the same cost as a barebones Jump-3 Drive Plant, and you can still do Jump-3 if needed.

The same holds true for the 800 dTon ship and the 2000 dTon ship, where two sets of Jump-1 Drives actually take up less volume and are cheaper than the smallest Jump-2 Drive.

One Engineering Hit cannot stop your ship. Personally, I am a big fan of redundancy.

 

[Enoki]

Me, I'd add the skill Damage control. All Navy characters get a Damage Control 0 level skill. That is, they get some basic training in it.

Damage Control can be earned as a skill like other engineering skills.

Merchant crew can train in it but don't get it handed to them for free. That is, they have to earn a level 0 + in it. This is because merchant ships aren't as likely to seriously train in damage control.

The skill then acts as a modifier to the damage received rather than repaired. That is, a crew with high levels of damage control skills reduce the damage inflicted in a battle.
What damage that does occur can then be repaired later using engineering skills.

I use the damage control party per crew factor as a basis for this. Passengers and troops don't count towards how much damage control ability a ship has.

 

[aramis]

Under Bk2 rules, the larger starships (1000+ dtn) always have a lot of extra space - there's only so many drives you can fit in.

Your premise overlooks one thing: custom hulls can be split any way between main and engineering compartments.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That would be an advantage for larger ships when engaging smaller ones, for a start. But 9+ is only 28% success, and throwing twice has only an 8% chance of both succeeding.

Your math is a bit off. If you are throwing twice for a single 9+ result, you need to multiply .72 times .72, which will give you about a 48% chance of success, not 8%.

Bob is correct; there is about 8% chance of both rolls succeeding, presumably repairing two different hits.

There is about 48% chance of at least one roll succeeding, but I would not allow two simultaneous attempts to repair the same hit. I might give an +DM for each extra damage control crew assigned to repairing that particular hit.

Then you have another option, which I do not think is often considered.
...
Basically, the cost of one set of Jump-1 Drives and one set of Jump-2 Drives gets you redundancy for your Engineering Plant for the same cost as a barebones Jump-3 Drive Plant, and you can still do Jump-3 if needed.

Nothing says drive performance can be added, but:

SPARE SYSTEMS
Spare jump drives, maneuver drives, power plants, computers, and screens may be installed in a ship to take over in the event that the main unit is disabled.
These are backup devices only and may not be in operation at the same time as the main device.
...
Under no circumstances may a backup and main device be operating at the same time; two level 6 power plants cannot be used as a level 12 power plant.

Two sets of drives gives you redundancy, but not increased performance.

 

[kilemall]

On the drive redundancy part, for power plants I allow plant #1 to go to X systems and plant #2 to go to Y systems, but then those systems go down when their associated plant is lost.


Having a master power distribution system that allows switching between the plants requires money and space, and using both plants to feed one system costs even more.


Switching power feeds if that capability is not built in would be a major DC roll, so might as well fix the plant if possible.



That was all developed in terms of doing more with capacitors, beyond the default 'idle plant and discharge capacitors in main power distribution' mode.



Fun things like double spinal shots, or fusion-electrics where a smaller plant drives a patrol, raider or exploration ship with modest needs, until greater power in combat or surviving an astrophysical challenge is called for.

 

[BwapTED]

Nobody uses robots for damage control?

Or would that just be counted as more crewmen?

 

[whartung]

Nobody uses robots for damage control?

Or would that just be counted as more crewmen?

Well, Robot Supplies are different (don't have to feed them), and can probably live 10-20 occupancy in the state rooms, in contrast to the crew.

You can also create new ones in the Makers in flight. You can do that with crew too, but, it takes 10-20 years.

 

[BwapTED]

Well, Robot Supplies are different (don't have to feed them), and can probably live 10-20 occupancy in the state rooms, in contrast to the crew.

You can also create new ones in the Makers in flight. You can do that with crew too, but, it takes 10-20 years.

Good points!

The Spaceman's Union doesn't like seeing robots take jobs away from qualified men, though.

''Rules say ya gotta have a union spacer for every four 'bots. Your crew all have up-to-date cards? Nobody skipping his dues, I hope? And, hey is that an extra 'bot stuffed in the fresher?"

 

[infojunky]

Nobody uses robots for damage control?

Or would that just be counted as more crewmen?

Damn You!.... You made me open up the robots can of worms in my head again.... :devil:

Actually that is a good question, I have a related one.

Do extra crew allow for additional Damage Control rolls?

My short answer is Maybe... Thinking this through from a PC crew point of view, the engineer is the usual character making that roll. Thus adding a Engineering Bot to the ships crew the option of a extra roll or a bonus on the the roll both present themselves. As a GM I would leave that up to Player Choice.

From my current Wargamey pov. Repair Bots would be a additional DC Roll over the ones available from the number of Crew Factors.

 

[mike wightman]

Let's deconstruct the actual rules:

Damage Control: Damage inflicted on starships in combat can be repaired or controlled by crew members during the battle. Especially in the case of player characters, expertise or skill in specific fields may be used to remove or repair
damage.

So it's more than just engineering skill - mechanical, electronic, jack-o-T, maybe even computer skill may provide a bonus to the damage control throw - hmm I sense referee input and a way to engage the characters to roll play...

Usually, a throw of 9+ will repair one hit of damage, with skill serving as a
positive DM.

Once again no actual skill is mentioned so the referee is free to make stuff up to suit the players and the situation...

One repair attempt may be made per one-thousand second turn. Any
part of a ship which has been completely destroyed cannot be repaired.

This bit assumes standard crewing - I would definitely allow more than one attempt at damage control if you carry additional crew or enlist passengers to help out, but the caveat is it is on a different bit of damage, you don't get to roll twice on one damaged system.

 

[aramis]

Let's deconstruct the actual rules:
So it's more than just engineering skill - mechanical, electronic, jack-o-T, maybe even computer skill may provide a bonus to the damage control throw - hmm I sense referee input and a way to engage the characters to roll play...
Once again no actual skill is mentioned so the referee is free to make stuff up to suit the players and the situation...
This bit assumes standard crewing - I would definitely allow more than one attempt at damage control if you carry additional crew or enlist passengers to help out, but the caveat is it is on a different bit of damage, you don't get to roll twice on one damaged system.

There's an implicit connection, tho'...

Hull hits: mechanical
Computer hits: computer or electronics
Drive hits: Engineering
Fuel Hits: mechanical
Crew Hits: explicitly medical, but not using the 9+ rule...

 

[Timerover51]

Nobody uses robots for damage control?

Or would that just be counted as more crewmen?

Robots do what they are programmed to do. Humans can get creative and operate outside of the box.

No, I do not use robots for damage control.

 

[mike wightman]

I agree, there is a loose connection between the damage type and the skill needed, but as a referee the rules give me the option of involving different players in the damage control step.

Drive hits could be any combination of mechanic, electronic, engineering or even computer depending on which bit of the drive is damaged...

Similarly a hull hit could require mechanic to patch it, or the hull hit could be causing a glitch to an electronic system or even affecting the jump drive hence require engineering...

Now I could draw up a table and roll against it, or I could describe the damage with the PC skills in mind. I prefer to give the players something for their characters to be doing during ship combat, and that includes the damage control step.