Damage scaling (ship weapons vs. people)

[Rerednaw]

I could have sworn there were rules for this. I just read through my Striker handbook though and it deals with vehicle and people scale...I didn't see starship scale. Tried a search and didn't see anything in classic. I know Mongoose mentions this somewhere (they use a 4 x 4 x 4 rule I think)...just wondering what it would be in classic.

Did I miss it or was this in another supplement?

Let's say we have a standard triple mix turret. One missile, one laser, one sandcaster. Fire at an unruly mob of dinosaurs?

Help please and thanks!

 

[McPerth]

I could have sworn there were rules for this. I just read through my Striker handbook though and it deals with vehicle and people scale...I didn't see starship scale. Tried a search and didn't see anything in classic. I know Mongoose mentions this somewhere (they use a 4 x 4 x 4 rule I think)...just wondering what it would be in classic.

Did I miss it or was this in another supplement?

Let's say we have a standard triple mix turret. One missile, one laser, one sandcaster. Fire at an unruly mob of dinosaurs?

Help please and thanks!

MgT1E uses a scale of 50, according LBB1:Mercenary Page 73.

But in the example it adds all weaponry fired on a ship before dividing (something I find wrong, as 100 people throwing stones to a ship (and so producing, I guess, 100d damage) would perform this way 2d damage in ship scale (as a nuclear missile) :CoW:

As for your main question, I don't own Striker, but for what I've read in this board, the starship missiles and lasers are depicted on it. Could this be used as a starting point?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

CT Striker has rules for this, but it is not a simple conversion factor.

CT Striker uses a different system that works with people, vehicles, and spacecraft without conversions.

 

[McPerth]

MT has also the equivalences (PM, page 80), and it's easy to resume: hit=kill, as the smallest weapon (TL 8 Blaser) is 500 dice damage.

Only the sandcaster (whose range is quite short) is less deadly, producing "only" 10 d damage.

In any case, as CT lasers are also 250 Mw ones, I guess to asume hit=kill against the largest dinosaurs is quite right...

 

[nobby-w]

I could have sworn there were rules for this. I just read through my Striker handbook though and it deals with vehicle and people scale...I didn't see starship scale. Tried a search and didn't see anything in classic. I know Mongoose mentions this somewhere (they use a 4 x 4 x 4 rule I think)...just wondering what it would be in classic.
[ . . . ]

It's in a section at the back of Book 3. Look for the section called 'Integration with Traveller.' Note that there are errata for this - armour factor conversions in particular.

It converts starship hull armour factors to Striker armour factors, and does rules for converting the effects of High guard weapons to Striker. It also has rules for using the Striker combat system for Traveller.

 

[infojunky]

It's in a section at the back of Book 3. Look for the section called 'Integration with Traveller.' Note that there are errata for this - armour factor conversions in particular.

It converts starship hull armour factors to Striker armour factors, and does rules for converting the effects of High guard weapons to Striker. It also has rules for using the Striker combat system for Traveller.

Note the lasers produced by the above guidelines ignore ship's armor.

 

[Rerednaw]

Thanks folks!

For simplicity I'm just gonna grab the raw damage from the Megatraveller tables. But i will also reread Striker 3 as well.

Was trying to figure how effective a sandcaster was at mob control...apparently the answer is pretty darn effective.

 

[McPerth]

Was trying to figure how effective a sandcaster was at mob control...apparently the answer is pretty darn effective.

As per MT rules this would not be mob control, but mass killing...

See that its range is Vlong (500 m), with a pen up to medium of 20, and 10 beyond with an increasing danger space and delivering 10 damage points (10d6 in CT scale), likely to be doubled, one or several times, if the roll is high...

Shoot it at a unarmored mob and the effect will be a carpet of dead and seriously injuried people (how many will fit in the 500 m long, 10 m at short range and about 400 m at Vlong cone area?)...

Live fire concussion grenades would produce less casualties...

 

[sabredog]

The Beam Laser in Striker is a 250MW beam laser.
Pulse lasers are 250MW, 4-lens jobs.

High energy weapons are 500MW.

* This was how I figured out how much energy an HG2 Energy Point was and how much of those EP's are stored in one ton of ship's capacitor. Laser uses 1 Ep = 250MW.

The basic ship's hull is 40 points of armor, as are bulkheads.

Missiles are 15cm warheads of your choice and figuring TL into the equation means your mileage will vary with penetration.

I think it's all laid out in Striker Book 2 or 3 but I'd have to look...this is all off the top of my head. Yeah, I use Striker a lot in my games.

 

[Timerover51]

The Beam Laser in Striker is a 250MW beam laser.
Pulse lasers are 250MW, 4-lens jobs.

High energy weapons are 500MW.

* This was how I figured out how much energy an HG2 Energy Point was and how much of those EP's are stored in one ton of ship's capacitor. Laser uses 1 Ep = 250MW.

The basic ship's hull is 40 points of armor, as are bulkheads.

Missiles are 15cm warheads of your choice and figuring TL into the equation means your mileage will vary with penetration.

I think it's all laid out in Striker Book 2 or 3 but I'd have to look...this is all off the top of my head. Yeah, I use Striker a lot in my games.

Are those ship star ship lasers? If so, how does the ship hand the energy transmission from the power plant to the laser? That is an enormous amount of energy to get from Point A to Point B.

 

[kilemall]

Are those ship star ship lasers? If so, how does the ship hand the energy transmission from the power plant to the laser? That is an enormous amount of energy to get from Point A to Point B.

CT/HG never defined it, I envision it as either like ST plasma conduits, or metallic hydrogen cables that are part power transmission part capacitor.


There is a time scale power generation difference between HG and Striker that doesn't jibe, but most people ignore it, or argue that the HG laser is actually firing on the Striker time scale as continuously powered/continuous fire, which would mean over 90% of the laser firings do no damage.

 

[mike wightman]

Are those ship star ship lasers? If so, how does the ship hand the energy transmission from the power plant to the laser? That is an enormous amount of energy to get from Point A to Point B.

The same way it handles the waste heat - handwavium or should that be ignoranium?


'Real world' it would have to be some sort of superconductor.

 

[Lycanorukke]

'Real world' it would have to be some sort of superconductor.

Never underestimate superconductors...

Image showing 12500 Amp conventional power cables vs superconductive ones at CERN
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CERN-cables-p1030764.jpg

 

[infojunky]

Are those ship star ship lasers? If so, how does the ship hand the energy transmission from the power plant to the laser? That is an enormous amount of energy to get from Point A to Point B.

The numbers are off as published and errata-ed. In that as written your basic ship laser blows through any and all starship armor.

 

[sabredog]

Ah, my mistake, the HG value for basic ship's hull is 60. It does go up from there depending on armor, but while the numbers may seem low they do work fine against lasers.

Lasers may penetrate the armored hull values, but, the amount of penetration points left over isn't usually enough to do much damage which is in sync with HG. The 250MW and 500 MW values for the lasers and high energy weapons are input values. The output is modified by TL, the number of lenses (in the case of a pulse laser), and the range attenuation. Lasers shoot far, but they drop off in penetration pretty fast.

Mainly the values for Striker are, as the rules even point out, just useful really for a situation where a ship is caught up in ground combat or being used for air support. If you tried to use this system for ship to ship combat you'd go mad.

GDW changed the basic MW value for input/output into joules/megajoules in Traveller variants after Classic because the megawatt numbers were sounding way too high even accounting for super-efficient superconductor and heat handling scifi systems. It all comes out the same in the wash in the end, though.

For comparison, Hoover Dam puts out 2000MW of power, which is only twice the power input of a dual fusion gun turret.

 

[mike wightman]

Nope, the value for basic hull in Striker is 40 - it is on the errata sheet that came with the boxed game, the errata printed in JTAS and the errata on the FFE CT CD.

Book 2: In Rule 75, Naval Vessels, the Striker armor rating corresponding to a High Guard armor rating of zero should be 40, not 60.

 

[infojunky]

If you tried to use this system for ship to ship combat you'd go mad.

Helps if you play the rules... In that ships under Striker rules are far more fragile than they are even under the High Guard rules. Remember in Striker penetration is everything.

With all that A idea occurs, instead of treating a Sharship as a unitary whole vehicle, but treat it as each compartment is a vehicle.... And boom! we drift into T5.

 

[sabredog]

Helps if you play the rules... In that ships under Striker rules are far more fragile than they are even under the High Guard rules. Remember in Striker penetration is everything.

Gee, I forgot all about the main mechanic of Striker combat. Don't forget to calculate TL into the design specs of lasers, at the TL they enter in they have a significantly lower PEN value than at the TL 13 break point. The armor values are relative as well to range attenuation: what is EFF for a TL-13 laser isn't the same as what is EFF for an LBB 2 or HG laser. Striker doens't use light seconds for ranging, nor does it take into account things like agility at high-G speeds for evasion.

As the rules said: the inclusion of ship weapons is really only applicable for a grounded ship, or maybe CAS with a cutter or fighter.

With all that A idea occurs, instead of treating a Sharship as a unitary whole vehicle, but treat it as each compartment is a vehicle.... And boom! we drift into T5.

I suppose...but then you have to forget that the majority of internal spaces in ships are not enclosed by bulkheads. The three main compartments of a ship us bulkheads to divide them from the rest of the ship, and therefor the same relative armor as the outside hull if you extrapolate the HG definitions of what armor in a ship is. The rest of the interior compartments and living spaces use internal walls that are not nearly as strong.

You really need to define your ruleset to use these things. Classic Trav goes with Striker, as can MegaTrav with some ruling on the part of the ref. Megatrav having a similar combat system and all, AHL expanded. HG, HG2 have cross-purposed definitions but there is enough overlap in their penumbras to figure it out.

 

[sabredog]

Nope, the value for basic hull in Striker is 40 - it is on the errata sheet that came with the boxed game, the errata printed in JTAS and the errata on the FFE CT CD.

I was right the first time..amazing...I use the higher value, though, IMTU. It made more sense. Thankfully, though, it is ridiculously rare to have anyone cut loose with something like a ship laser on the ground. That's just way too much IMHO. I handwave it by telling the players the ship's safety system won't allow it to be used that way. Burning down half the town waving around a triple turret of beam lasers of that size is just rude.

 

[infojunky]

Helps if you play the rules...

A quick Mea Culpa, that sound much more crass than intended. If I offend all I can plead is not reading what I had written twice.