Deckplan Software

[robject]

OK, I'm impressed with ProFantasy's Cosmographer software.

I've done things the hard way, way back when. I.E. Paint Ship Pro, black and white lines, pale blue grid underlay. Thinking about it makes me tired.

Anyone have a recommendation? Anyone have a gripe about Cosmographer? Tell me why I shouldn't buy it today.

 

[Easterner9504]

Anyone have a recommendation?

Best on market to my knowledge.


Anyone have a gripe about Cosmographer? Tell me why I shouldn't buy it today.

Too expensive,
Rotten csr service.
Brutal to use.
Brutal to update
Vicious steep learning curve.
Worthless documentation.
Changes basic functions for the worse with each new edition of Windows OS that comes out.
Has tendency to lose saves.
Is jumbled in MENU and MY COMPUTER.
Ultra difficult to get DP's out of Cosmog and into real world. (At least for me Pete at Peter's TRAV Page seems to have done well.) See: steep learning curve.

 

[BytePro]

Easterner9504 seems to have some experience in the matter

And it seems to match with my own suspicions... to wit - some nice marketing graphics appear on the site, but where are the hundreds of results I should be able to grab off the net?

My conclusion is that while one can do neat things with it - such requires massive investment in time. Probably more time and aggravation than to do the same or better with other products.

I more like the system maps and such than the deckplans, myself - and have considered the program for such. But, I am very leery of the scant info provided - I suspect much of the results are just 'baked' and require more effort and are less dynamic than I'd care any for.

If all you want is deckplans, I suspect you would get much better results from Inkscape (or even Sketchup) - and much more lasting 'return' on your investment in time.

Just my take - noting I've never actually used the program.

 

[robject]

where are the hundreds of results I should be able to grab off the net?

[...]

...I suspect you would get much better results from Inkscape (or even Sketchup) - and much more lasting 'return' on your investment in time.

Inkscape sounds like the old Paint Shop Pro. Not that that's a bad thing, mind you, and Inkscape runs on OSX, which the old PSP never did.

Perhaps a more interesting question is: where are the hundreds of deckplans created by any one hunk of software? In other words, perhaps deckplans are just plain difficult.

 

[BytePro]

Inkscape sounds like the old Paint Shop Pro.

Ack - heck no - not one bit (pun). That's like equating sardines to grapes! (At least re the old PSP.) Inkscape is a vector graphics program ala Illustrator!

Inkscape does indeed run on OSX (and several other platforms - I use it on Windows as well) - but note that 10.8 (Mountain Lion) requires a little extra work installing (http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index...pe_fails_to_launch_on_OS_X_10.8_Mountain_Lion).

BTW: The newest versions of Inkscape have some really nice tools for deckplans ala placement and 'cloning' of objects, not to mention layer and object tagging options.

Perhaps a more interesting question is: where are the hundreds of deckplans created by any one hunk of software?

To quote Dr. Alfred Lanning - 'That, Detective, is the right question.'

I think the key part of the answer is no consumer software exists to specifically make creating them easier. (Cosmographer does a lot of other things... deckplans are part of an add on).

Deckplans require a combination of illustration and CAD features. I've used both types of programs and both have drawbacks for making deckplans for a game. The biggest problem is that deckplans often need to be very dynamic - i.e. geometrically parametrized.

Most software only ends up good for reproducing a design, rather than creating one from scratch. I've found it often easier to create deckplans in code as to do it with software tools - which means the tools aren't good enough to supplant pen and paper with regards to effort. They provide much better and more useable results - but at an often prohibitive learning curve in addition to design time.

 

[atpollard]

As I stuck my toe out into the greater drawing/mapping/deck plan community, I discovered two great truths.
1. There are other people who love drawing deck plans.
2. Science-Fiction is definitely a red-headed stepchild to Fantasy (ie. we are DEFINITELY a minority).

Concerning the difficulty of deck plans, the core issue is that castles and dungeons are basically rectangular blocks and easy to map on a grid ... Starships are not. So creating a starship deck plan on a grid is fairly easy, while creating one that reasonably accurately represents the irregular shape of the hull that contains it is hard. (Try drawing a section down the middle of a classic scout and fitting the decks inside to look at headroom if you don't believe me.)

I recommend "The Cartographer's Guild" as a good website to learn tips for using software to draw plans and maps. Photoshop, Gimp and Cartographer all have followers and tips for creating grids and lines. A number of people (including me) use multiple programs on a single work - laying out lines in Sketch-up and adding textures and colors in CC as an example. Personally I use AutoCAD for lines and Photoshop for color/textures, but I chose those programs because I already had them and learned to use them at work - so they were free and convenient for me.

If I were starting out on a budget, I would probably look to a free copy of Sketch-Up to get started and export the lines to something Paint-like to dress it up.

Good luck,
Arthur

 

[atpollard]

Deckplans require a combination of illustration and CAD features. I've used both types of programs and both have drawbacks for making deckplans for a game. The biggest problem is that deckplans often need to be very dynamic - i.e. geometrically parametrized.

I have seen several professional illustrators who achieve amazing work starting out with a hand-drawn ink on paper sketch, digitizing the lines, and rendering the scanned image.

A similar technique involves rough 3D sketch in Sketch-Up and rendering & textures in something else.

 

[HG_B]

So creating a starship deck plan on a grid is fairly easy, while creating one that reasonably accurately represents the irregular shape of the hull that contains it is hard. (Try drawing a section down the middle of a classic scout and fitting the decks inside to look at headroom if you don't believe me.)

That example is actually a case of function trying to follow form. That form, would never exist if one were actually designing a ship to be used, as a ship.

 

[DangerousThing]

I like CC, mainly because it can be used for star. Maps and deck plans.

I'm still working on deck plans, but I'm getting to where I'm starting to get it. Yes, it has a steeper learning curve than I'd like. I occasionally think of rewriting AutoRealm in some language I like. But somebody is already doing that.

 

[BytePro]

Inkscape has a decent digitizer built in... its filters for raster effects rival illustrator's - and it does curves very well. For 2D deckplans, it really could be a one stop package.

Don't get me wrong - I like and have used a lot of other tools - and Inkscape is definitely not 'made' for making deckplans. Where Inkscape is most lacking, regarding floorplans, is its measurement tools - though forthcoming version promises an advanced tool.

I've used Sketchup for a 2 deck ship (transfered from a 2D deckplan) - and the results were great. BUT, curves were a real PITA - as Sketchup natively sucks at them. Plug-ins are an absolute must. In fact, I began writing one of my own to support deckplans - but, then lost interest due to the bugs and limitations in free Sketchup and Google's selling it off... All said, the results can be great - but the learning curve, at least if one plans on handling any curves, can be steep. And the ability to modify the design part way thru - well, basically its best to start over from an earlier point. It also crashes a lot more frequently than I have any patience for and the free version lacks support for EPS output (for direct, high quality PDF).

My main gripe with Inkscape, btw, is its lack luster EPS support (as compared to Illustrator) - though printing to a PDF seems to give good results.

I'm still working on deck plans, but I'm getting to where I'm starting to get it.

How long have you been trying?

How flexible is it - i.e. how easy is it to change some not-insignificant thing, like lengthening the hull or removing a corridor and changing side of entryways into a stateroom?

[I actually started writing a 2D deckplan program circa '84 ... but interest quickly waned when I moved to 3D wireframe hulls - sure wish today's GPUs and such existed 30 years ago... ]

 

[robject]

Deckplans require a combination of illustration and CAD features. I've used both types of programs and both have drawbacks for making deckplans for a game. The biggest problem is that deckplans often need to be very dynamic - i.e. geometrically parametrized.

Most software only ends up good for reproducing a design, rather than creating one from scratch. I've found it often easier to create deckplans in code as to do it with software tools - which means the tools aren't good enough to supplant pen and paper with regards to effort.

Can you expand on this theme a bit?

Having done a few simple deckplans, I found that a nice program like PSP5 gives me good lines and curves, layers (for an underlying grid, for example), copy-paste, and image manipulation, but doesn't give me vectors (PSP7 does, but I don't use it), doesn't let me snap to a grid (uh, I think), doesn't easily mirror a curve for symmetry (the "snap-to" problem again), doesn't have a library of "stuff" (I have to find my own clip art), and so on. Also, style is completely on me -- I have to decide what line widths to use, for example.

None of this stops me from doing a deckplan, but it sure seems to be a tedious process, and since there's no inherent style, my plans may all end up looking inconsistent with each other -- bad form.

 

[HG_B]

I like CC, mainly because it can be used for star. Maps and deck plans.

Are the Trav rules hard coded for the star maps? Or, can you change them?

 

[BytePro]

Having done a few simple deckplans, I found that a nice program like PSP5 gives me good lines and curves, layers (for an underlying grid, for example), copy-paste, and image manipulation, ...but doesn't give me vectors (PSP7 does, but I don't use it), doesn't let me snap to a grid (uh, I think), doesn't easily mirror a curve for symmetry (the "snap-to" problem again),

Inkscape does every single one of those things - easily - plus its easy to change things after the fact...

Also, style is completely on me -- I have to decide what line widths to use, for example.

Even if you don't set things up well (i.e. use layers for easier selection, group paths into things like hull, stateroom, etc.) its pretty easy to select, (group, duplicate, make components, etc) and modify stuff. In fact, I've done 'outlined' walls by simply duplicating lines and overlaying a thinner linewidth in white (thus automatically handling intersections and ends).

doesn't have a library of "stuff" (I have to find my own clip art), and so on.

Inkscape doesn't come with a deckplan library per-se (like Cosmographer does - though I don't much care for the cartoon style myself). But making your own is pretty easy. And the stamping and cloning features mean you can change 'style' in one stroke (even between files - but only if you set it up for such).

You could also support lots of deckplans in one file. If you keep everything vector it will not only be small - but render and print beautifully. Plus its easy to share - .svg format is natively supported by modern browsers (and inkscape is free and multi-platform) including webkit (i.e. iOS devices). Note, Inkscape has the ability to export 'plain SVG' for such.

Of course, while Inkscape can support deckplans you will still have to learn how to use the program. The thing with Inkscape is there are a lot of tutorials out there to help you along and the program is not limited, its free and open source and well established (as with Sketchup (not OS) and Blender, they are just harder, IMO, and not geared well for 2D). More notably, learning how to use a vector program like Inkscape is a good stepping stone to learning how to use other graphics programs like Illustrator, Photoshop (latest version), even Sketchup. No their controls and exact features are not the same. But the underlying concepts are.

 

[Gray Pennell]

I just asked emailed a friend who builds out the interior of multi million dollar yachts if he could recommend a good program for deck plans. Stand by while I wait on the reply

 

[robject]

Inkscape does every single one of those things - easily - plus its easy to change things after the fact...

[...]

Of course, while Inkscape can support deckplans you will still have to learn how to use the program.

Not worried about learning Inkscape: it reminds me quite a bit of PSP, so the learning curve shouldn't be too hard. I think you've sold me on it. It certainly won't cost me anything to give it a try.

 

[BytePro]

I knew I'd seen a really nice deckplan done in Inkscape...

http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/...00-ton-Far-Trader-(Traveller)-2D-plans/page11
(go back through the thread for some real nice closeups).

Let us know how it goes!

[I'll try to post some links to tuts later... maybe make up a demo deckplan (can't share the one's I currently have).]

 

[BeRKA]

Quick Decks

DSL Ironworks has an interesting tool called Quick Decks.

I wrote a review about it.

 

[DangerousThing]

How long have you been trying?

How flexible is it - i.e. how easy is it to change some not-insignificant thing, like lengthening the hull or removing a corridor and changing side of entryways into a stateroom?

One thing that keeps me working with CC rather than anything else is that you can create libraries of symbols which can adjust themselves according to their environment, to an extent.

One thing that I would give almost anything for is to have a tool that automatically measured the area of an object. I tend to eyeball my decks and I have no ability to estimate quantity.

My main reason for doing this is so that I can have accurate plans to do 3d modeling with. I use Modo for the 3d part.

[I actually started writing a 2D deckplan program circa '84 ... but interest quickly waned when I moved to 3D wireframe hulls - sure wish today's GPUs and such existed 30 years ago... ]

If I had a way of doing a deck plan maker for the iPad, I would. I could see it taking input from the output of a ship design program... Your objects would be pre-setup so that you would just slide them into space. Not really that simple, but it could be easier than it is now.

 

[madmike]

Being a civil engineer by profession, I use AutoCAD to draw deck plans.

AutoCAD is vector based drawing program, that can make drafting up a deck plan a fairly quick process. The only gripe is having to create starship symbols from scratch. Once those are done however you have a good library for any starship deck plan project. My stretched type A3 far trader plans were done in AutoCAD.

I use Civil3D, one of the flagship products, but AutoCAD lite would work just as well.

 

[BytePro]

One thing that I would give almost anything for is to have a tool that automatically measured the area of an object.

Inkscape 0.48 added a feature for measuring the area enclosed by a path...

Of course, Inkscape doesn't support a 'library' of parts, per se (that I'm aware of) ... though that would simply be in a legend, another page, and or kept outside the page (for easy drag and drop) - all easily imported. Being all vector (even raster poly is handled as a vector and clippable/deformable and, IIRC, available for 3D transforms as well!), such are easily adjusted, copied, cloned, even interpolated (colors/scales/shapes/etc). Connectors are also supported (like a Visio object), btw. I seriously doubt CC can touch those features. Then throw in advanced filtering, vector brushes and tracing, numerous output options, and probably the best curve editing and drawing tools available bar none (even Illustrator CS6, which I love, lacks spiro curves which are GPL'd and patented!)...

Plus, the SVG can be exported as 'plain SVG' and imported into Sketchup or Blender.

[Don't get me wrong - all this has a learning curve. But I suspect CC is just as steep and perhaps less rewarding...]

If I had a way of doing a deck plan maker for the iPad, I would.

Hehe ... I've been tinkering with such... but I'm afraid its 3D focused and strayed quite a bit from Traveller rules (MTU has been 3D for a long time).

I've considered making a 2D one as it wouldn't be that hard (a current project involves pretty complex in-field 2D mapping) - but the whole licensing and using rulesets that were made for pen and paper tends to put me off. I doubt there is enough of a market to be worth the headache of dealing with the mess of rulesets and their flaws - and the inevitable vocal critics (averse to iPads or this or that rule).

BTW: madmike, nice deckplans!